Any runners here switch to Chi Running style?

[ControlD]

Just wondering if any runners here have tried switching to the Chi running style and if so what are you conclusions? I have been a runner on and off for 30 years, but as I have starting running again after turning 40 (about three years ago) I have been dealing with a lot of foot injuries (PF, peroneal tendonitis). I am thinking that it is time to change my running style to something more economical gait wise and it seems like Chi Running is all over the internet. I was hoping to get some opinions before dropping $125 on a workshop.

 

[Megatomic]

Dave, can you provide more details on your current running regimen? Roads or trails? Flat or hilly terrain? High mileage? Current footwear? Body shape?

I am a long distance runner built more like a football player than an ultramarathoner. I run both trails and roads with hills and flats. My current road shoes are NB 890v2 and trail shoes are Adidas Vigor Trail. I am moving to Hoka One One Stinson Evo next month.

I find that I naturally have a forefoot landing when fresh and move to a midfoot strike when fatigued. I don't try to force any specific running gait, I just run the way that feels the best to me and hurts the least. That's what the newest running wisdom seems to be. The fads were just that - fads.

My advice to you, if you haven't already done, go to a specialty LRS and have your gait analyzed and let them recommend the best shoe for you. This will be based on your gait, your mileage, and where you run.

 

[Megatomic]

ps - why aren't you contributing to the 50,000 mile thread???

 

[ControlD]

Dave, can you provide more details on your current running regimen? Roads or trails? Flat or hilly terrain? High mileage? Current footwear? Body shape?

I am a long distance runner built more like a football player than an ultramarathoner. I run both trails and roads with hills and flats. My current road shoes are NB 890v2 and trail shoes are Adidas Vigor Trail. I am moving to Hoka One One Stinson Evo next month.

I find that I naturally have a forefoot landing when fresh and move to a midfoot strike when fatigued. I don't try to force any specific running gait, I just run the way that feels the best to me and hurts the least. That's what the newest running wisdom seems to be. The fads were just that - fads.

My advice to you, if you haven't already done, go to a specialty LRS and have your gait analyzed and let them recommend the best shoe for you. This will be based on your gait, your mileage, and where you run.

Sure thing (and thanks for the response).

My current regiment consists almost entirely of pavement running, flat terrain (this is Ohio, you have to look for hills if you want them). I have cut my mileage back to about 30 miles per week right now trying to get my feet back into shape so I am not anywhere near high mileage. I guess technically I am at zero miles per week right now as my podiatrist told me to take some time off. I am relatively fit body shape wise. I am 5'10" 159 pounds. My average pace is about 8:10 per mile.

I have been to a couple of specialty running stores to have my gait analyzed over the past couple of years. I have a very high arched, neutral foot and run with a neutral gait. For my foot type neutral + cushioned shoes have always been what the suggestion is and I think that is probably correct. My shoe of choice is the Brooks Glycerin and I suspect that perhaps a switch to Nike Vomeros earlier in the year might have created some of my problems. Since I seem to be prone to the same injuries over and over again I am still thinking that something in my mechanics must be off which is why the Chi running stuff looked interesting but I am skeptical by nature and I'm not sure I trust it.

 

[ControlD]

ps - why aren't you contributing to the 50,000 mile thread???

Checking it out now. This is actually my first foray into this sub-forum so I didn't know that thread existed until now!

 

[vi edit]

I'm an old school, distance runner...and I had never heard of this. Went to their website and don't agree with them fundamentally.

They say "running doesn't cause injury, running wrong does". I don't agree with that. Fatigue, overtraining, and poor form *due* to fatigue cause injury.

You can possibly mitigate that some by changing strike points and impact on joints, but the injury risk is still there. People get hurt in three major ways...

1) freak accidents - turning an ankle on a curb or rock
2) new runners working too hard and not establishing a base and trying to advance too fast
3) established runners throwing in two-a days, too long of workouts, too many high impact workouts, ect and overusing muscles. Muscles are your primary shock absorbers. Once they fatigue and can no longer do that you start introducing shock and stress to joints and connective tissues.

Running styles aren't going to negate a majority of those issues.

Just my $.02...anywhoo...

 

[vi edit]

...more rambling from me...

Distance runners are some of the most stubborn athletes there are. Period. They have to be, how many other groups of athletes will push themselves through something as grueling as a marathon? It's a sport that is just as much willpower as it is physical ability.

That being said, so many runners get it stuck in their head that they *have* to run every day or nearly every day. That's just a recipe for disaster for most people. I guess I've found over the years that I really don't like running much any more and there are a lot of other things you can do for fitness that compliment what running *doesn't* do for you.

Plyometrics, sports like basketball and tennis that provide lateral strength, weight training (including legs!), ect. And critical is including recovery days where you can stretch, swim, bike, whatever. Just give your body a rest.

Crosstraining is just a critical component that is missed by so many people and that physical and mental break is very beneficial in overall health and fitness and injury prevention.

It's really about your goals though. Cross training and doing other things aren't going to get you in marathon shape. It's just not going to happen. But if you want to do some moderate running, basic competition (local 5k races) and just generally be in good shape it's the way to go.

Stuff like basketball and biking (exercise and trail) still let me step out and run 23-24 minute 5k's without running a single mile per year. If I really wanted to go at it I could throw in a couple days of running a week and really improve.

Just be sure to do your body a favor and mix it up. As a former runner I know that's not an easy or fun sounding option.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I'm an old school, distance runner...and I had never heard of this. Went to their website and don't agree with them fundamentally.

They say "running doesn't cause injury, running wrong does". I don't agree with that. Fatigue, overtraining, and poor form *due* to fatigue cause injury.

You can possibly mitigate that some by changing strike points and impact on joints, but the injury risk is still there. People get hurt in three major ways...

1) freak accidents - turning an ankle on a curb or rock
2) new runners working too hard and not establishing a base and trying to advance too fast
3) established runners throwing in two-a days, too long of workouts, too many high impact workouts, ect and overusing muscles. Muscles are your primary shock absorbers. Once they fatigue and can no longer do that you start introducing shock and stress to joints and connective tissues.

Running styles aren't going to negate a majority of those issues.

Just my $.02...anywhoo...

I don't have time to give a comprehensive post atm, but I'll comment on the bold portion later. This isn't true whatsoever. A dominant majority of injuries are caused from poor form, mobility, or strength. Granted, there are anatomical variations that may predispose certain individuals to injury, but form has a LOT to do with it. Overtraining is common, yes, but you can overtrain certain tissues excessively just based on your form (excess pronation, heel striking, etc).

 

[vi edit]

The thing with form is that everyone's body is built different. Different heights. Different widths. Different gaits. Ect. Our bodies tend to fall into a pattern that works well for *us*. That's really my main problem with "form" training. It's not a one size fits all.

I honestly think trying to adjust your natural gait from way to another just shifts the injury to a different area.

I do agree with strength though, hence the reason I said that a base is crucial.

 

[ControlD]

I think the debate going on here is pretty much where my skepticism is coming from also. Part of thinks that trying to adhere to a "one size fits all" running form is potentially dangerous. Then again, I have been more than careful this time around when it comes to my running schedule as well as speed / distance increases and I am still seeing some troubling injury issues. In the past I would just chalk this up to overuse but I don't think that is the case. That leads me to think that there must be an underlying mechanics issue. Perhaps the old "if it doesn't hurt that is the right way" method isn't always correct. I'm not saying that Chi, POSE, or any other "method" is foolproof but maybe there is something to be learned from them. Perhaps I will give it a shot and just see what happens. It can't be worse than changing nothing and fighting repetative injuries.

 

[vi edit]

How well have you been stretching? Another critical area that many runners fail to do. As you get older, things tend to tighten up quite a bit. Not saying it's going to fix things, but it's crazy what having some tight hammys or quads can do to things. I had a terrible case patella femoral syndrome that was fixed almost entirely by just doing a dedicated stretching program each morning for several weeks to losen up things.

 

[Megatomic]

I don't stretch. I am so lucky I am not injured more. I want to get into yoga, but I'd be uncomfortable doing so without my wife present. And she's not going. I've tried posing at home, just doesn't work for me.

Dave, as you come back from your mandatory time off, start slow and easy. Run the way that hurts the least. And check out this:

http://www.irunfar.com/2012/07/hoka-one-one-bondi-b-review.html

 

[ControlD]

I don't do much stretching either. I was advised not to do any static stretching before running, that the "old ways" of pre running warmups were a thing of the past. I'm not sure I completely agree with that, but for better or worse that seems to be the modern thought on the matter. I do take a brisk 10 minute walk before running to get loosened up. The idea of off day stretching however is something I have been looking into recently and might start if I can find a decent and easy to follow program (has to be visual, reading on how to do stretches seems dangerous to me).

 

[vi edit]

Yeh, static on cold muscles is not a good thing. But stretching afterwards is important, as is a stretching daily - take an extra couple minutes in a hot shower and stretch your calves, quads and hammies.

I don't want to be a P90x shill...but check eBay for a copy of their Plyometrics workout. Slide that in one day a week and get some good lateral movement and explosive exercises mixed in. I only suggest it because it's something you can easily do in your home (with a good sized room/basement) and is easy to follow and will leave you sweating buckets. Provides a great spring back in your step.

 

[neocpp]

What are your goals? Like vi edit said, you don't have to be running hard all the time or do a ton of mileage to get into decent shape. That alone kills off a lot of potential for injury. Personally I'm always looking for ways to improve my form and increase efficiency, but I run a lot and like to be competitive in my events. If I was just training for the local 5k run/walk, I probably wouldn't care so much.

About the stretching, I've actually been injured far less when I haven't been stretching than when I have, but I freely admit there are probably other issues at play. I usually just run a longer warmup while my teammates stretch, so maybe that extra warmup time is just more beneficial for me.

 

[vi edit]

About the stretching, I've actually been injured far less when I haven't been stretching than when I have, but I freely admit there are probably other issues at play. I usually just run a longer warmup while my teammates stretch, so maybe that extra warmup time is just more beneficial for me.

I was never big on stretching before events either. I also preferred longer warmups. I've always been a slow starter, longer warmups got me up to speed quicker. That benefited me more...at least in competitive events. It's entirely different now that I'm older though. At 34 sometimes just getting up in the morning I'm achy. A couple extra minutes in the shower and some nice stretching helps keep some of those aches and pains away.

Ok..that could be taken way out of context wrong

 

[ControlD]

What are your goals? Like vi edit said, you don't have to be running hard all the time or do a ton of mileage to get into decent shape. That alone kills off a lot of potential for injury. Personally I'm always looking for ways to improve my form and increase efficiency, but I run a lot and like to be competitive in my events. If I was just training for the local 5k run/walk, I probably wouldn't care so much.

My goal is pretty much just to be in decent 10K running shape. My 5K times right now are about 25 minutes and I am happy with that. I don't feel like I am running too hard, I just feel like somehow I must not be running with the correct form. It could just be that I am getting old too. I used to run much higher mileage and faster and never had any injury problems to speak of. Now it seems like the problems that pop up just hang around forever or come right back.

 

[vi edit]

Silly question, but you said that you "started running again". So I'm assuming that you had a bit of a hiatus in there from a prior distance training.

Assuming I'm reading that correct, do you weigh any more than you did when you were younger? I only ask because I've found my body to be very sensitive to body weight when it comes to running. I'm 6' and when I was in competitive shape I was weighing in under 160 pounds. I had several years off and put on A LOT of weight. I was over 200 pounds at one point. Anywhoo...long story short...my knees and feet really didn't like carrying 180+ pounds. Once I got back down into the low/mid 170's my body was much happier.

Are you significantly heavier now than you were 10 years ago? That and combined with just simply aging can make a big difference in how well your body responds.

 

[marmasatt]

I hope I'm not derailing this thread too much but it appears the initial question was answered. Jeff, why do you like those Hoka's so much? I thought the major running trend of the last 3/4 years was "minimalist" footwear? Basically forefoot striking, light steps and hardly any cushioning, ie, wearing vibrams, etc (if it works for the Kenyans and Tarahumara, right?) These have two and a half inches of cushioning?!!

 

[ControlD]

vi I am about 20 pounds heavier than I was when I last did any serious running. I had not thought about that but it is a good point.

 

[RagingBITCH]

You don't need a $125 workshop to teach you how to run. That's horseshit. A decent running coach who believes in that running style should be able to get you the fundamentals and you can learn on your own. Whether it's Chi, POSE, or just forefoot running in general - you can learn it on your own.

That being said - SociallyChallenged makes a great point - injuries are normally caused by deficiencies in your body. ITB issues? Weak hips. PTFS? Weak quads. So on and so forth.

There's nothing wrong with changing your form - just be conscious that your injuries might be linked to some other underlying weakness. Sometimes, some rehab, starting over from ground zero, and good old time are the only things that will get you back on the road to where you want to be.

I was out of running for about ~2 months back in late Dec-Feb. No matter how much cross training I tried, my issues still lingered when I tried to run again. Some adjustments and conscious effort from my trainer, along with time off completely to heal got me back to where I'm at now. (50+ MPW) Once I started back I felt like I had regressed - 11 minute miles felt hard. Now I feel like I'm in far better conditioning and shape than I was before I got injured.

You may need to get checked out by a good PT, strengthen your weak points, and maybe start over fresh. Whether that also includes changing your running form is up to you though. The evidence doesn't show that big thick running shoes cause injury or help decrease them. The same is flip flopped for running style - it's been shown and proven in many articles that it reduces some of the force your body initially takes, but there's still no hard evidence that it in itself reduces injuries. The simple fact is, no matter how you run - you're going to get injured, whether through carelessness, overuse, or some weak link that finally succumbs.

 

[neocpp]

Raging makes a good point. A good PT will make a world of difference in both keeping you from getting injured and treating it quickly when it does happen. Unfortunately I don't have any good advice on locating one, but maybe your friends will have recommendations.

 

[Bateluer]

I hope I'm not derailing this thread too much but it appears the initial question was answered. Jeff, why do you like those Hoka's so much? I thought the major running trend of the last 3/4 years was "minimalist" footwear? Basically forefoot striking, light steps and hardly any cushioning, ie, wearing vibrams, etc (if it works for the Kenyans and Tarahumara, right?) These have two and a half inches of cushioning?!!

I know of a number of trail ultra runners who swear by the Hokas.

Minimalist is the new trend, true, but its not always good for everyone. The Tarahumara tribes ran barefoot because they had little money for shoes, they didn't get injured as often because they didn't live on a diet of processed crap, and were physically active from the time they could walk.

I think most people will naturally settle into whats comfortable to run, but thats not always whats best for them. Particularly for those that seem to get injured repeatedly, it might be time to unlearn some habits and try something a little different.

Megatomic, I've been enjoying going to the Bikram yoga near me. It really helps having an instructor to correct your postures when you're doing them incorrectly or poorly. There's usually a mix of men and women, though there's more women than men. I'm not comfortable enough to do it in the speedo briefs some of the men practice in, but I definitely feel benefit from the classes. Really works well for working some of the kinks out. Only downside is that after the Saturday evening class, I have to guzzle water to rehydrate up before long run #2 Sunday morning.

 

[ControlD]

You don't need a $125 workshop to teach you how to run. That's horseshit. A decent running coach who believes in that running style should be able to get you the fundamentals and you can learn on your own. Whether it's Chi, POSE, or just forefoot running in general - you can learn it on your own.

That being said - SociallyChallenged makes a great point - injuries are normally caused by deficiencies in your body. ITB issues? Weak hips. PTFS? Weak quads. So on and so forth.

Thanks, that all seems like very solid advice. I have been told that I have an extremely high arch as well as very tight calf muscles so I think your idea of concentrating on the rest of the body is solid. I never thought about seeking help from a PT but perhaps that might be a better option than trying to unlearn 30 years of running habits.

 

[vi edit]

Yeh, I'm uber high arched too.
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-240-319-326-7152-0,00.html

If I do the "wet" test I have even less foot showing than the print on the right of that video. I've also got incredibly narrow feet. But what isn't narrow is my hips...I'm damn near built like a woman in that regard...34"-36" waist at 6' and 170 pounds. And it's not fat...that's just my pelvis taking up space. I'm a biomechanics wreck.

That's why I asked about the weight. Us high archers simply don't have the surface area striking the ground that others do to distribute the weight. I think high arched people are very...uhh...impacted by weight. Is that extra 20 pounds muscle or a little extra flab you picked up over the years? Any chance you could trim down through diet, light running and supplementing with weights & biking to help round out caloric burn/up the metabolism?