Any lawyers here? Personal belongings damaged in someone else's house...

WAZ

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2001
1,642
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I've looked up some things in various places but without getting a lawyer yet have not found anything definitive. I know this isn't a typical place to ask something, but just wondering if anyone has any knowledge of or experience with this.

My band has been storing our instruments and equipment at my brother's (and bandmate's) house. We converted his basement into a rehearsal/studio space and have kept everything set up there for about 3 years -- happily and with his wife's full blessing, when things were good. Unfortunately over the past several months, he and his wife have started having problems, due to her rampant alcoholism and issues with mental illness (schizophrenia, paranoia, delusions). Long story short, this came to a head in November when she had him falsely arrested for domestic abuse — charges that are being dropped, SHE is actually now charged with filing false police reports, has had her children removed by DCS, basically a giant mess. The problem is, as long as his case is still pending and not officially dropped yet, there is a protective order that keeps him from being able to be in the house with her there. So we were not able to get into the house to get our music equipment out.

While living there alone (again, kids and dogs removed due to neglect, and placed with my mom and brother) she, for lack of less dramatic term, descended into madness. She stopped working, stopped paying bills, trashed the house, had men on Tinder buying her groceries and vodka, was calling me and everyone she knew claiming police were standing outside her house and shining flashlights in her windows, that the County prosecutor was driving in her lawn and taunting her, that her cat died when it was found to be very much alive. Just pure, off-the-deep-end psychosis and delusions. It was very sad and disturbing but she refused help. Because she wasn't paying the bills or answering the phone, she had the power shut off and was just drinking herself to death, living in filth in the cold and dark. Finally a wellness check found her near-death in her bed, with alcohol bottles piled up 2 feet high -- so far gone that she had no idea the basement had been flooding for days. No heat, no power, no sump pump in the middle of winter. So all of our music equipment was sitting down there in 4 inches of water. It's not ALL gone, but there's probably $10,000 to $15,000 worth of damage. Including to my drums, rusted stands, mics, cables, etc (probably $2,000 of MY personal property that was in her basement). She was taken to the ICU and has since been released -- but has refused to step foot in the house and has not acknowledged or admitted what happened. While she was in the hospital for a week, we were able to make trips to the house and get everything out of the water and into a storage unit. But the damage is obviously done.

So given that very dramatic situation -- her alcoholism and mental illness, but also neglect of the property -- what is her responsibility or liability for other people's personal property in her home? Her homeowner's insurance is a no-go because they deemed she neglected the property so they are not paying for flood damage in the basement. And because of her false police report that resulted in the protective order, my brother was not legally allowed to go in there and retrieve anything before this happened. Basically it's a giant f***ing mess. I've read that people DO have a reasonable responsibility for belongings in their homes, but what I can't find is if we have a path to take her to court for damages due to her neglect. I'm not going for some "take her for all she's worth" or anything, but I'm trying to figure out if I am on the hook for 2 grand to replace stuff that was damaged? Or is she? I'm sure I'll have to hire a lawyer officially (Indiana law, for reference), but right now just trying to get a feel for what my options are, if anyone happens to have any knowledge in this area.
 

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highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
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Magistrates court here (SC) goes up to $15K. No lawyer needed. That said, no idea if you have a leg to stand on.
 

deustroop

Golden Member
Dec 12, 2010
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The main problem facing a negligence suit is her lack of money to pay the claim. I would sue her and her insurance co for the losses. It would be cheaper for the co to pay the claim than their in house lawyer to litigate .
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
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www.neftastic.com
IANAL - but here's an honest question... what are the odds that she even has any money to pay restitution at this point? The best you'll likely get is a judgement that will never get paid.

Small claims is usually like 5k or less, no lawyers involved.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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what is her responsibility or liability for other people's personal property in her home?

(this is not professional advice, and should always seek professional advice from a licensed state lawyer)

This is why most people have home insurance to cover for this, but seeing your situation i am pretty sure she lapsed on that if she ever had it.
But normally when this happens, renters insurance / home owners insurance would cover the cost in damages.

If not yes you can go after the owner, but again, judging from your statement, i do not think you have any recourse in getting settlement.
You can take them to small claims probably depending on the state and limit, but expecting them to pay would probably be wishful thinking.
You would probably be better off working something out peacefully with your bandmate in some form of long term payment, but again, it seems they are knee deep in financial difficulty, that you probably wont see any of it back.
 

WAZ

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2001
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You can take them to small claims probably depending on the state and limit, but expecting them to pay would probably be wishful thinking.
You would probably be better off working something out peacefully with your bandmate in some form of long term payment, but again, it seems they are knee deep in financial difficulty, that you probably wont see any of it back.

I SHOULD probably clarify that the bandmate (my brother) has already spoken to a divorce lawyer, as this was the final straw in a string of incidents over the past year. If there are "sides" to be had, he and I are on the same side, versus her, if that makes sense. That's unfortunately what it's devolved into due to many events, culminating in this last one.

So it's actually not so much me working out something peaceful with "them" — HE will actually also be wanting her to cover damages to equipment. In fact, his personal stuff — guitars, pedal board, some amps — probably took the most and highest-value damage. It was in his own home, which he was barred from entering, due to her false police reports... and then damaged due to her personal neglect. I'm guessing that will be something for the divorce lawyers to figure out.

I don't know how her finances are anymore, but as recently as a year ago, she made a 6-figure salary. She had sold her deceased mother's home for $70k, and had investments and other money put away. She "found" a $15k investment she had forgotten about. She currently drives a Porsche that has been paid off. This is bigger picture stuff, but I want to be clear that she is not poor. I'm also guessing lawyers/authorities are going to have to decide based on her assets and accounts what she can and should pay.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
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While this majorly sucks for you financially, if you have any sliver of humanity in you... You'll just cut your losses and let this woman try to get the help needed without another layer of legal and financial stress.

You won't see anything from her, your story makes it clear that she likely has no way of paying you. That means your only option would be to go after your brother, and with what he's dealing with that would be especially heartless.

She lost her sanity and her family, you just lost some stuff... Just leave it alone
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
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Your brother, did have have any legal representation with that protective order?

Because some states' restraining orders my involve merely no hostile contact or written notes that allow retrieval of certain personal property into the order.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
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I SHOULD probably clarify that the bandmate (my brother) has already spoken to a divorce lawyer

That's the problem tho, the losses happened while they were joint.
The house i assume is still under joint.
That means joint parties bear responsibility.

That is why i am saying its best to go peacefully though your brother and work something out if you want to claim.
Because the losses happened while joint, joint will bear responsibility for each other.
 

WAZ

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2001
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While this majorly sucks for you financially, if you have any sliver of humanity in you... You'll just cut your losses and let this woman try to get the help needed without another layer of legal and financial stress.

You won't see anything from her, your story makes it clear that she likely has no way of paying you. That means your only option would be to go after your brother, and with what he's dealing with that would be especially heartless.

She lost her sanity and her family, you just lost some stuff... Just leave it alone
While this approach could be appreciated in theory, there are more layers to it than that. Without getting into every gritty detail, I need it known that my wife and I have spent the past year offering to get her help. My wife said she would drive her anywhere to a facility, that we would watch the kids, that we would do anything we could to help. When things went down, we were the first ones there to help the kids, to get the dogs away from neglect and into a safe home. We are the last people one could call heartless.

Unfortunately this woman is not a very good person. Before this incident and since, she's done everything from lie, attack family members, steal, call police on innocent bystanders, make threats, and lie some more. Again she had a 6-figure salary and tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) put away. Unless she's blown it all in the last year, she DOES have the means of paying, but to put it simply she is cunning and conniving. There are more details and a laundry list of her transgressions I won't get into here. She made her choices, and we held out for a long time giving her the benefit of the doubt, offering help, and offering sympathy for her situation. But she has refused our help, refused our sympathy. I am extremely sympathetic to alcoholism as a disease, and to mental illness, and tried to help. But she dug this hole even deeper and took with it other people's livelihoods. In this situation it cannot be left alone. The only question is how to go about it. I do appreciate the sentiment.
 

WAZ

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2001
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Your brother, did have have any legal representation with that protective order?

Because some states' restraining orders my involve merely no hostile contact or written notes that allow retrieval of certain personal property into the order.
Yeah, he had (and has) a lawyer re: the protective order. He was not allowed ANY contact with her, in person, by phone or text. She refused to leave the property -- again because she was holed up inside drinking herself into a stupor. So here, at least, he was not allowed to get his personal property. She left a couple bags of his stuff outside that I went to pick up to take to him, but that was it.
 

WAZ

Golden Member
Jan 17, 2001
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That's the problem tho, the losses happened while they were joint.
The house i assume is still under joint.
That means joint parties bear responsibility.

That is why i am saying its best to go peacefully though your brother and work something out if you want to claim.
Because the losses happened while joint, joint will bear responsibility for each other.
Yeah, they do jointly own the house.

And that's what sucks -- it was HIS house, HIS stuff (and mine), but he was legally barred from his own home due to her false accusation/protective order. So he was not legally allowed to be there to maintain the home, and she was left there alone to neglect it and result in the damages. Things like the electric/gas bill were in her name, and she opted not to pay them. Not due to financial hardship, but just because. The police were over there countless times but said they couldn't do anything because she wasn't an imminent threat to herself; adult protective services refused to help and said they couldn't make her do anything against her will; it took DCS a few months to finally see the neglect (kids not fed, sitting in a swing with a puddle of urine underneath, house trashed) to even take the kids out and give them to my brother.

So yeah, I definitely see what you mean about the house being owned jointly. But that's what makes it harder to swallow since only one party had physical, legal access to and responsibility for maintaining the property. I hope something can be worked out peacefully with her, but I have a feeling there's a VERY messy divorce on the horizon. :grimacing:
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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If your brother has the kids i am fairly sure he will get the house in a legal battle.
The kids also showing a willingness to be with the father will help greatly in court as well.

The court will always side with the kids.
Only issue is the eviction that will be required and also the court dates with COVID ramping havok on the legal system, especially when it comes to evictions.

I would honestly write it off as a loss since its your brother, and more help him try to secure the house and finalize the divorce before she wrecks his credit as well as foreclosure on the house, as that is also joint.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Your brother and you got fucked in this situation but I don't think you are going to get anything back and the fight will probably just not be worth it. Hopefully your financial situation lets you absorb this loss because that's what looks like is going to happen.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,069
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I'm not an insurance expert, but this sounds like it could be covered under the homeowner's insurance policy of each band member (off-premises coverage for you and regular personal property insurance for your brother). Typically off-premises coverage is 10% of your personal property limit, so it might not cover a whole lot. Contact your insurance company, see if you can get anything covered. Let them handle it, since it sounds like you'll get nothing from her.

Like others have said, getting money from your brother probably also won't be a great idea for your family.

While all the information makes for a nice thread, when it comes to the insurance coverage, almost none of that backstory information matters. Was it your property, was it on your property, did it get damaged? That's it.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,798
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this reminds me of one of Jack Handy's from SNL's quotes..

If you drop your keys into molten lava, just let 'em go because they are gone man....
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
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Hindsight is 20/20, but sometimes conflicts of law can be resolved with yet another filing.

If there was some equivalent of replevin or detinue in your state and you had filed for it, and the judge granted you possession, the items could have been retrieved in some manner. But that time has passed.

You probably could win damages in court but then you have to garnish something she has. If she pulls out the mental health card, there might be some more obstacles.
 

Spacehead

Lifer
Jun 2, 2002
13,201
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Her homeowner's insurance is a no-go because they deemed she neglected the property so they are not paying for flood damage in the basement. And because of her false police report that resulted in the protective order, my brother was not legally allowed to go in there and retrieve anything before this happened.
You'd like to think there could be some recourse here. If your brother couldn't get into the house to check on it & pay any bills needed that's kinda F'ed up.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,646
2,654
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What year changes.

My perspective has changed and/or been enhanced.

Alas, OP may never see it...but
Winning the suit, if there are records of power being cut off, photo of the pile of booze bottles...should make it a relatively slam dunk case to get a damages award. The negligent conduct goes beyond any excuse.

Collection remains the issue, because she might claim no assets.

Protective order prohibitions are not necessarily cut and dry depending on the state. Sometimes, you can contact law enfrocement or some other mediating force to gain very temporary entry.

In Maryland, peace/protective orders' injunctive effect do not overrule other laws, although that may differ for Indiana.

Note: being mental is not going to be excused in civil tort claims. I think it is because rather than the state exercising coercive power, it is a "person"(could be corporate entity) asking to be restored "whole" (sans legal costs and time.)


Conversion by taking control of a chattel could also be a claim, as the property belonged to another and the owners have license to enter, conduct themselves reasonably, and remove it. In this, the enforcers of the protective order could be sued, although winning against police may not be easy.
 
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