Any in-depth testing to see if 850 Evo is really not prone to degradation (edited)

[LTC8K6]

Does the Magician software have a tool to manually refresh the data by writing it to other cells that also works with the 850 evo.. if that would be the case i would feel more reasurred because in case degradation would happen then you have at least a manual tool to fix that.

Or can you use 3th party soft for that?

I believe Advanced Performance Optimization does that in Magician.
You can do that whenever you want.

My computer with the 850evo is currently taken apart, so I cannot check.

 

[coercitiv]

Does the Magician software have a tool to manually refresh the data by writing it to other cells that also works with the 850 evo.. if that would be the case i would feel more reasurred because in case degradation would happen then you have at least a manual tool to fix that.

Or can you use 3th party soft for that?

Just out of curiosity, how familiar are you with SSDs? Did you use one for more than 6 months so far?

 

[omega3]

Just out of curiosity, how familiar are you with SSDs? Did you use one for more than 6 months so far?

I've only used an 840 Pro on a friend's machine.. the Pro has MLC NAND which isn't prone to degradation.. I'm however looking at a 250GB cheaper alternative for myself.. the 850 evo looks good on paper but i'm still not convinced about TLC even if they changed it to 3D V-NAND..

Not sure why you wanted to know this.

Either way, does the Performance Optimization or something else in Magician allow the 850 evo model (not just 840 evo) to do a manual refresh writing the data to new cells.. if the 850 evo would prove to be still prone to degradation then at least we have a tool ready to fix it as i expect Samsung would go in denial.. im just thinking ahead.. better safe then sorry if you understand

So anybody with an 850 evo can confirm this please? If the option is there maybe test it once to see if it actually works with that model.

Or 3th party soft that could do this isntead?

 

[coercitiv]

Not sure why you wanted to know this.

Because at the moment you're stuck in an endless loop of "find the best SSD drive". You're probably imagining the poor 840 Evo owners are cursed with some of the slowest drives in history, which could not be further from the truth. My work machine uses a PM 851 drive, which is the OEM version of the 840 EVO. The drive works just fine, especially after the firmware upgrade, and although it's not as fast as the Pro tier drives, you would be hard pressed to notice slowdowns of the machine due to read performance degradation.

Moving on, there is no proof out there, either from forum members or the press, that 850 Evo is even partially affected by this issue. The drive has been on sale for 6 months already, no one rang any bells as of yet.

Furthermore, according to this Techspot article, it takes Samsung 19nm TLC NAND 8 weeks to degrade: that's 2 months. It also takes Samsung 21nm TLC NAND 40 weeks to degrade. Therefore owners of the original 840 saw read performance degradation after 10 months. In other words, it takes 5 times more time for 21nm Samsung TLC to degrade as much as 19nm TLC. Meanwhile the 850 EVO is made using 40nm TLC, cells are a few times bigger and Samsung claims 10x reduction in voltage state overlaps. If we were to follow this fear mongering mumble that 850 EVO is plagued by the same problem, performance degradation would have to be significantly slower than 21nm TLC, in the area of 3x-5x.

It might take 850 EVO from 2 to 4 years to start showing read performance degradation. If it happens at all. Are you ready to wait that long?

My advice to you is to choose a brand and buy a SSD with decent reviews and low price: Crucial, Samsung, SandDisk, OCZ (Toshiba), Intel, and others. Enjoy the performance boost and learn more in the process.

 

[omega3]

Because at the moment you're stuck in an endless loop of "find the best SSD drive". You're probably imagining the poor 840 Evo owners are cursed with some of the slowest drives in history, which could not be further from the truth. My work machine uses a PM 851 drive, which is the OEM version of the 840 EVO. The drive works just fine, especially after the firmware upgrade, and although it's not as fast as the Pro tier drives, you would be hard pressed to notice slowdowns of the machine due to read performance degradation.

Moving on, there is no proof out there, either from forum members or the press, that 850 Evo is even partially affected by this issue. The drive has been on sale for 6 months already, no one rang any bells as of yet.

Furthermore, according to this Techreport article, it takes Samsung 19nm TLC NAND 8 weeks to degrade: that's 2 months. It also takes Samsung 21nm TLC NAND 40 weeks to degrade. Therefore owners of the original 840 saw read performance degradation after 10 months. In other words, it takes 5 times more time for 21nm Samsung TLC to degrade as much as 19nm TLC. Meanwhile the 850 EVO is made using 40nm TLC, cells are a few times bigger and Samsung claims 10x reduction in voltage state overlaps. If we were to follow this fear mongering mumble that 850 EVO is plagued by the same problem, performance degradation would have to be significantly slower than 21nm TLC, in the area of 3x-5x.

It might take 850 EVO from 2 to 4 years to start showing read performance degradation. If it happens at all. Are you ready to wait that long?

My advice to you is to choose a brand and buy a SSD with decent reviews and low price: Crucial, Samsung, SandDisk, OCZ (Toshiba), Intel, and others. Enjoy the performance boost and learn more in the process.

I've read all you've said and personally i don't exclude that in 2 years the 850 evo will start show degradation.. therefore the only thing i want to know if Magician has a tool that let you manually refresh write the data to new cells.. there's nothing wrong with thinking ahead because in 2-4y Samsung will care even less about 850 evo users as they'll have something new out.. the thing is i want a drive i can keep for a long time and not replace every 5y because there's something a bit faster so i totally disagree with this mentality that people only look ahead 5y and say by then everything now will be obsolete anyway.. in theory an SDD could easily go 10 years and much longer and if it can last that long that will be good enough for me.. so if i invest in something longterm at least i want to know if there's a tool available in case it does go wrong

Actually i wish samsung had also updated the 850 evo firmware to do a periodic refresh like now with the 840 evo.. yes, it's a bit extra wear but will work.. with the 850 evo it's back to "let's see what happens"

Aside from Magician, is there any 3th party soft that also allow for refresh writing of data, which seems to be the fix for these and maybe other drives.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, the TBW is doubled with the 850evo.
120,250GB : 5 Years Limited Warranty or 75TBW Limited Warranty
500GB,1000GB(1TB) : 5 Years Limited Warranty or 150TBW Limited Warranty

It's doubled over the evo with the 850pro.
128 / 256GB : 150TBW (Terabytes Written), 512GB / 1TB : 300TBW (Terabytes Written)

Overall 850 warranty is 5 years for evo and 10 years for the pro, but only 3 years for the 840evo.

The 850 EVO delivers guaranteed endurance and
reliability by doubling the TBW compared to the
previous generation 840 EVO backed by an
industry leading 5 year warranty.
With twice the endurance of a typical NAND flash
SSD, the 850 EVO will keep working as long as you
do. The 850 EVO guarantees a 5 year limited
warranty or 75TBW for 120GB and 250GB, 150TBW
for 500GB and 1TB.

 

[omega3]

Well, the TBW is doubled with the 850evo.
120,250GB : 5 Years Limited Warranty or 75TBW Limited Warranty
500GB,1000GB(1TB) : 5 Years Limited Warranty or 150TBW Limited Warranty

It's doubled over the evo with the 850pro.
128 / 256GB : 150TBW (Terabytes Written), 512GB / 1TB : 300TBW (Terabytes Written)

Overall 850 warranty is 5 years for evo and 10 years for the pro, but only 3 years for the 840evo.

Those years warranty is also a bit marketing since they know most drives can last longer.. warranty does not include degradation unfortunately.

But nobody so far here answered my question about Magician or 3th party soft having a tool to write the data to new cells manually if ever needed.

 

[LTC8K6]

I already posted that Magician does do advanced performance optimization on demand.

The new Magician 4.6 also includes an Advanced Performance Optimization feature, which is similar to the performance restoration tool that Samsung released earlier. Basically, it's a command that tells the SSD to rewrite all of its internal data, which resets all cell charges and hence recovers performance.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9158/...-read-performance-fix-coming-later-this-month

 

[coercitiv]

Actually i wish samsung had also updated the 850 evo firmware to do a periodic refresh like now with the 840 evo.. yes, it's a bit extra wear but will work.. with the 850 evo it's back to "let's see what happens"

You don't know if they already have. For example, did you know some Intel drives also use background cell refresh? (see my post above on Intel HET)

Aside from Magician, is there any 3th party soft that also allow for refresh writing of data, which seems to be the fix for these and maybe other drives.

Disk Fresh - free - refreshes data and has enough customization options to make quite an effective tool.

I tested it myself on my PM 851 before the firmware upgrade, works as advertised.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Got an email alert this morning. 500GB 850EVO are $170 at Microcenter.

I guess they're not selling well, regardless of whether or not they actually perform well over time. This topic may become moot if the market hard-core rejects TLC.

 

[LTC8K6]

Got an email alert this morning. 500GB 850EVO are $170 at Microcenter.

I guess they're not selling well, regardless of whether or not they actually perform well over time. This topic may become moot if the market hard-core rejects TLC.

I bought one from Amazon for $177.00 about 2 weeks ago.
1Tb is $365.00

I think manufacturing is just getting rolling.

Plus a lot of competition has shown up.

 

[omega3]

Disk Fresh - free - refreshes data and has enough customization options to make quite an effective tool.

I tested it myself on my PM 851 before the firmware upgrade, works as advertised.

I checked out DiskFresh but isn't this for HDD as they don't even mention SDD strangely enough?

Also, it seems to be a tool that constantly runs in the background supposedly without interfering.. is it also possible to not have it run in the background and only do a manual refresh once in a while when needed?

 

[omega3]

I already posted that Magician does do advanced performance optimization on demand.

The new Magician 4.6 also includes an Advanced Performance Optimization feature, which is similar to the performance restoration tool that Samsung released earlier. Basically, it's a command that tells the SSD to rewrite all of its internal data, which resets all cell charges and hence recovers performance.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/9158/...-read-performance-fix-coming-later-this-month

Magician 4.6 has that feature to work with the new firmware of the 840 evo.. but does this also work with the 850 evo and has anybody tested it with such a drive?

Thanks to all for your help by the way.. good forum

 

[LTC8K6]

No, APO works with both 840 and 850 drives.

 

[coercitiv]

I checked out DiskFresh but isn't this for HDD as they don't even mention SDD strangely enough?

I clearly wrote I have tested it successfully on my own SSD. And it worked, in the sense that it refreshed the data of the first 25% of my main partition as I configured it to do. Read speed was nominal for that portion afterwards.

Also, it seems to be a tool that constantly runs in the background supposedly without interfering.. is it also possible to not have it run in the background and only do a manual refresh once in a while when needed?

It does not constantly run in the background. You run it and it does it's job as you specify. During the refresh process you can use the computer as you normally would. After it finishes, you close it. Done.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Got an email alert this morning. 500GB 850EVO are $170 at Microcenter.

I guess they're not selling well, regardless of whether or not they actually perform well over time. This topic may become moot if the market hard-core rejects TLC.

I was avoiding Samsung drives on principle, based on their poor warranty service, and poor treatment of 840 non-EVO users.

But Newegg had a combo deal for a 500GB 850 EVO, and an 8GB stick of GSkill DDR3-1600, for $184.99. I couldn't resist. Hopefully that SSD lasts, my 240GB M500 drives are fine, but I filled one faster than I thought I would.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I was avoiding Samsung drives on principle, based on their poor warranty service, and poor treatment of 840 non-EVO users.

But Newegg had a combo deal for a 500GB 850 EVO, and an 8GB stick of GSkill DDR3-1600, for $184.99. I couldn't resist. Hopefully that SSD lasts, my 240GB M500 drives are fine, but I filled one faster than I thought I would.

I'm holding out for a 1TB SSD at <$300 that's actually faster than the 840 EVO I have now. (Last I checked, I don't think the M500 quite makes it there, although the remaining stock of 960GBs have been bouncing around that price point.)

 

[MrPickins]

Magician 4.6 has that feature to work with the new firmware of the 840 evo.. but does this also work with the 850 evo and has anybody tested it with such a drive?

Thanks to all for your help by the way.. good forum

Advanced Performance Optimization of Magician 4.6 is only
supported in Samsung SSD 840 EVO 2.5&#8221; model.

http://www.samsung.com/global/busin...re/Samsung_Magician_46_Installation_Guide.pdf

I don't see the option for an Advanced Optimization in Magician for my 850 Evo, but then again, I don't see it on my laptop with an 840 Evo either.

 

[omega3]

No, APO works with both 840 and 850 drives.

Advanced Performance Optimization of Magician 4.6 is only supported in Samsung SSD 840 EVO 2.5&#8221; model.

http://www.samsung.com/global/busin...re/Samsung_Magician_46_Installation_Guide.pdf

I don't see the option for an Advanced Optimization in Magician for my 850 Evo, but then again, I don't see it on my laptop with an 840 Evo either.

You people give conflicting info.. does APO and more specific data refresh actually work with 850 EVO or not??

 

[SSBrain]

...Therefore owners of the original 840 saw read performance degradation after 10 months.

I think this is wrong. I've experienced performance degradation on my 120GB and 250GB 1st gen Samsung 840 SSDs in much less time than that. I'll try performing a benchmark with HDTune later on a 840 250GB which had a Windows installation cloned on about a month ago and post results here. I expect some sequential read speed performance degradation to have already started.

EDIT: holy crap! It's much worse than I thought:

Before it was installed on that computer, I used it on mine for more than one month with a few dozen GBs of static data and I did not see such a performance degradation. However, I used it as a secondary drive with very little writes/reads over time, and mainly of sequential nature.

 

[MrPickins]

You people give conflicting info.. does APO and more specific data refresh actually work with 850 EVO or not??

I gave you a direct source. What more do you want?

I suggest that you remember that nobody here is under an obligation to answer your questions. We're helping because we want to.

 

[omega3]

I gave you a direct source. What more do you want?

You're right, my apologies.. i was mainly replying to LTC8K6 since he said Advanced Performance Optimization does also work with the 850 EVO which indeed doesn't seem the case.

 

[MrPickins]

I don't see the option for an Advanced Optimization in Magician for my 850 Evo, but then again, I don't see it on my laptop with an 840 Evo either.

I take this statement back. I just realized I didn't have the latest Magician version installed on my laptop with the 840Evo.

The latest version has an Advanced tab on the Performance Optimization page that is not displayed on my PC with an 850Evo.

I will state unequivocally that the advanced optimization is only available for 840Evo at this time.

 

[coercitiv]

I think this is wrong. I've experienced performance degradation on my 120GB and 250GB 1st gen Samsung 840 SSDs in much less time than that.

I used the data from the Techspot article as baseline. If read performance degradation is more similar between vanilla 840 and the EVO, wonder why it didn't get spotted faster.

Before it was installed on that computer, I used it on mine for more than one month with a few dozen GBs of static data and I did not see such a performance degradation. However, I used it as a secondary drive with very little writes/reads over time, and mainly of sequential nature.

I'm pretty sure usage pattern affects this phenomenon, since both repeated reads and/or writes to adjacent cells affect signal integrity.

 

[LTC8K6]

You're right, my apologies.. i was mainly replying to LTC8K6 since he said Advanced Performance Optimization does also work with the 850 EVO which indeed doesn't seem the case.

I'll check again when I reassemble that computer. I have borrowed a few parts from it for other projects.