Any good documentaries on the formation of Israel?

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy


After WWI, the Jews started having problems.

I heard they had one or two problems before WWI.

There were problems before WWI - That is what started the Zionist movement to try to setup a place for Jews in Palestine. Purchase land via donated funds to setup settlements

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy


During WWII, the world started having problems with the Jews.

By problem, you mean 'deciding whether to let Jews emigrate to escape persecution'?

And to where they would be allowed to emigrate. Most nations were unwilling to accept them - plus you also had the situation developing out of the USSR. Jews were wanting to get out of there also

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy


The Jews attempted to solve their problems, the world stepped in and screwed up those solutions.

How exactly had "The Jews attempted to solve their problems" other than fleeing Germany-controlled areas, and how did the world interfere other than closing their borders?

The world attempted to slow/stop the emigration to Palestine.

Once that was unable to happen; and localized conflicts developed within Palestine, the British wanted out; the UN setup a two state solution and no one was happy.

Then come the Arab-Israeli wars. Every time Israel had the Arab armies on the ropes; the world stepped in and told Israel to play nice - ignoring the bad boys on the other side that wanted to exterminate Israel. Israel was never crying for a truce or protection even though they were outnumbered. The world would have ignored them. Israel knew that they had to stand fast or die - for them, there was no do-over.

Come after '73, most of the Arab world had come to their senses - they would not be able to remove Israel. However, they still existed a few fanatics and sponsors.

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy


The Jews found another way to solve their problems

A bit of irony in Nazi Germany having wanted others' land and taken it by force; and the Jews having wanted others' land and taken it by force.

The land the Israel had after inception was as a result of battle by countries that were in control of the land. Those countries and the land's inhabitants had no qualms about destroying Israel. While the inhabitants were hostile toward Israel and will to work toward her destruction; why should Israel accomindate them? The land was lost during battle, - the countries when they cried for relief, did not care/bring up the territory the Israel captured when the routes were happening. It is only when everyone is thought to forget the Arabs' micheif that the issue would come up.

Starting from the '75 Munich incident and onward
Treat the fanatics just like any other enemies of the state.
Target the leaders and instigators no matter where they were located.

If a government wanted to threaten Israel; then the Israel would respond as such.

I can't figure out why everyone hates Israel so much. Everything I've read from a reasonable source backs up what you're saying.

Actually, I have an idea why, but most would think I'm crazy were I to suggest it.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
For a different point of view, albeit one that is historical fiction, you might consider reading the excellent novels Exodus and The Haj by Leon Uris.

It's pretty disgusting to watch most people who look at this issue get it wrong and then go on to advocate the extermination of the people who stand for reason and Western Civilization in favor of a takeover by people who stand for primitive religious mystic barbarism, but that's what folks seem to be advocating.

It doesn't really matter that much what we advocate since Israel will eventually get wiped off the map, one way or another, as a result of demographics -- more rational and higher educated people tend to have few children whereas less-educated people tend to have more children, and "Demographics is Destiny".

I find it disgusting that you claim the side of reason while recommending fanciful propaganda to someone looking for historical understanding. As for "primitive religious mystic barbarism", that is exactly what drives many to support Israel's ongoing colonization of what little of Palestine is left.

And you believe most people advocate the extermination of Israelis? It seems you are disgusting yourself with your own imagination, as here in reality most of us are calling for a It is hilarious to see you claim to be on the side of reason in and yet consistently recommend fanciful propaganda to someone looking for historical understanding. As for "primitive religious mystic barbarism", that is what drives many to support Israel's ongoing colonization of what little of Palestine is left.

As for your demographic concerns, Israel's siege on the Palestinian territories and Jim-Crowism against Israeli-Arabs puts considerable limits on educational opportunities which otherwise could have otherwise started fading away decades ago if Israel had pursued a just two-state solution rather than insisting on colonizing the West Bank in spite of one.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
...
The Israelis might want to start giving serious consideration to some sort of a huge land purchase someplace in the world and then a mass evacuation and relocation. I'm guessing that that's already been considered.

This is what they were trying to do with Palestine in th beginning - purchase land for settlements from the locals and/or settle on unoccupied/unudsed land that was unproductive.

Sure, but they didn't get very far with that and hence resorted to more forceful means. The same is bound to happen anywhere there is a population, as people tend to like to live where they accustomed to. Israel has internationally recognized borders as it is, it just needs to abstain from colonizing beyond them so this conflict can finally be brought to an end.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy


After WWI, the Jews started having problems.

I heard they had one or two problems before WWI.

There were problems before WWI - That is what started the Zionist movement to try to setup a place for Jews in Palestine. Purchase land via donated funds to setup settlements

Zionists were buying land in Palestine decades prior WWI, as mentioned in the documentary I linked above. And the world didn't try to stop them, but Britain did restrict immigration to the region as was their responsibility under the League of Nations mandate. Anyway, I wish I could shake you of your "the Jews" vs. the world delusions, but as you seem far to set in your ways for that I won't bother addressing the rest of your post.

 

[dahunan]

I just flushed one down the toilet

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: kylebisme
And you believe most people advocate the extermination of Israelis? It seems you are disgusting yourself with your own imagination, as here in reality most of us are calling for a It is hilarious to see you claim to be on the side of reason in and yet consistently recommend fanciful propaganda to someone looking for historical understanding. As for "primitive religious mystic barbarism", that is what drives many to support Israel's ongoing colonization of what little of Palestine is left.

As for your demographic concerns, Israel's siege on the Palestinian territories and Jim-Crowism against Israeli-Arabs puts considerable limits on educational opportunities which otherwise could have otherwise started fading away decades ago if Israel had pursued a just two-state solution rather than insisting on colonizing the West Bank in spite of one.

Where/when in the history of the Palestinians have they advocated a two state solution?

Look at their charter - it still does not fully accept the Israelis

Originally posted by: kylebisme

There were problems before WWI - That is what started the Zionist movement to try to setup a place for Jews in Palestine. Purchase land via donated funds to setup settlements

Zionists were buying land in Palestine decades prior WWI, as mentioned in the documentary I linked above. And the world didn't try to stop them, but Britain did restrict immigration to the region as was their responsibility under the League of Nations mandate. Anyway, I wish I could shake you of your "the Jews" vs. the world delusions, but as you seem far to set in your ways for that I won't bother addressing the rest of your post.

Where did the Palestinian Mandate were the Brits authorized to maintain some balance? What was their responsibility?

On the Zionists immigration into Palestine reached a critical mass to support their own governmetn infrastructure, people (Arabs & Brits) started to become concerned.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Where/when in the history of the Palestinians have they advocated a two state solution?

Most notably at Oslo in '93, not that it did them any good.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Look at their charter - it still does not fully accept the Israelis

Hamas' charter wasn't even ratified by the organisation, let alone does it speak for Palestinians in general, who along with Israelis do generally support the two-state solution, but unfortunately extremists like yourself would prefer to keep denying them such peace.

Originally posted by: kylebisme
Where did the Palestinian Mandate were the Brits authorized to maintain some balance? What was their responsibility? On the Zionists immigration into Palestine reached a critical mass to support their own governmetn infrastructure, people (Arabs & Brits) started to become concerned.

The "League of Nations mandate put Britain in temporary administrative control of the region, and their responsibility to moderate immigration was inherent to the part which says "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine", which was conceivable at the time the mandate was drafted as the Zionist movement wasn't shunned by the vast majority of Jews, but a few decades and hundreds of thousands of immigrants later it became an impossible goal to live up to. These are basic facts anyone interested in the issue should be aware of, and are mentioned in the documentary I linked above.

 

[Liberator21]

The Best of the Best.

Flame suit on.

 

[QuantumPion]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

I can't figure out why everyone hates Israel so much. Everything I've read from a reasonable source backs up what you're saying.

Actually, I have an idea why, but most would think I'm crazy were I to suggest it.

A school associate of mine a while back, who was a "mild anti-semite", explained it to me thus:

"everyone in the world has hated the Jews for thousands of years. They must have had a good reason to."

I think that about sums up the futility of arguing against most anti-Jew/Israel people. There is no rational or logical reason. Many people just need something to hate and fear. Kind of like for the same reason why you root for your home sports team, even though you have no real association with them. It's just a human failing.

 

[Liberator21]

Originally posted by: QuantumPion

Originally posted by: soccerballtux

I can't figure out why everyone hates Israel so much. Everything I've read from a reasonable source backs up what you're saying.

Actually, I have an idea why, but most would think I'm crazy were I to suggest it.

A school associate of mine a while back, who was a "mild anti-semite", explained it to me thus:

"everyone in the world has hated the Jews for thousands of years. They must have had a good reason to."

I think that about sums up the futility of arguing against most anti-Jew/Israel people. There is no rational or logical reason. Many people just need something to hate and fear. Kind of like for the same reason why you root for your home sports team, even though you have no real association with them. It's just a human failing.

I've heard many scholars (Biblical and other) claim that many/all of the other Middle Eastern Countries hate Israel simply because it is not only the only democratic nation, but the only primarily non-muslim country in the region.

Those countries (Iran,Syria,etc.) also shout and shout that Israel isn't a legitimate country and say how they aren't even worth giving attention too, but if you think about it all of those places are hypocrites. Think for a second, where for some inexplicable reason do all the world's TV news camera's invariably place their attention? Sure we might get preoccupied with this country's economy, or that country's ICBM tech, but the attention ALWAYS turns back to Israel - even before it reformed in 1948. For some reason Israel is always in the news. Because people hate them? Because they aren't legitimate? I have my own ideas about that, but that simple fact alone pretty much makes them different than any other country in history. People seem to be drawn to it like it is some sort of "docudrama."

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: kylebisme

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Where/when in the history of the Palestinians have they advocated a two state solution?

Most notably at Oslo in '93, not that it did them any good.

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Look at their charter - it still does not fully accept the Israelis

Hamas' charter wasn't even ratified by the organisation, let alone does it speak for Palestinians in general, who along with Israelis do generally support the two-state solution, but unfortunately extremists like yourself would prefer to keep denying them such peace.

Originally posted by: kylebisme
Where did the Palestinian Mandate were the Brits authorized to maintain some balance? What was their responsibility? On the Zionists immigration into Palestine reached a critical mass to support their own governmetn infrastructure, people (Arabs & Brits) started to become concerned.

The "League of Nations mandate put Britain in temporary administrative control of the region, and their responsibility to moderate immigration was inherent to the part which says "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine", which was conceivable at the time the mandate was drafted as the Zionist movement wasn't shunned by the vast majority of Jews, but a few decades and hundreds of thousands of immigrants later it became an impossible goal to live up to. These are basic facts anyone interested in the issue should be aware of, and are mentioned in the documentary I linked above.

The Mandate has Articles which lay out what was expected to happen to Palestine and the responsiblities of the British.

Article 2:

..secure the establishment of the Jewish national home

safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion

Article 4:

the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

Article 6:

The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes

Article 11:

It shall introduce a land system appropriate to the needs of the country, having regard, among other things, to the desirability of promoting the close settlement and intensive cultivation of the land.

The Administration may arrange with the Jewish agency mentioned in Article 4 to construct or operate, upon fair and equitable terms, any public works, services and utilities, and to develop any of the natural resources of the country, in so far as these matters are not directly undertaken by the Administration. Any such arrangements shall provide that no profits distributed by such agency, directly or indirectly, shall exceed a reasonable rate of interest on the capital, and any further profits shall be utilised by it for the benefit of the country in a manner approved by the Administration.

As in the above, there were layed out plans for helping the Jewish immigration into Palestine - that seems to be the intent of the Mandate.

The Jews were supposed to be directed to certain land areas - there was plenty available; but the British were not working very well under the agreement for the Articles where the Jews & Zionists were specifically called out.

But Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (which were known as the "refusal organizations") objected to the accords because their own charters refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist in Palestine.

The Hamas charter is called out and held up as an example by many of the Palestinian groups and tolerated by others. If the Palestinians choose to follow Hamas they will receive the result that Hamas can deliver.


W/ respect to the Oslo accords, what has happened to bust it down? Wiki has no real answers other than it was an initial framework that the Palestinians and Israelies punted the big issues to a later date. Camp David II failed on those issues.

I know the Palestinians came to Oslo from a position of weakness. Lack of support from the Arab community and no more Soviets.
The new PA was supposed to control the Palestinians but did not.
Israel was supposed to not create new settlements and did not - they were allowed to expand existing ones. The Palestinians thought differently.

Many researched sources imply that neither side really wanted to honor the agreement that to much was being given away from both sides