Any good documentaries on the formation of Israel?
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theflyingpig
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- Mar 9, 2008
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Lemon law
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I can't say I know of any unbiased accounts, but one could go back to the news sources of the day and put together the various history of events. And find that the whole history of the formation of Israel had a pretty checkered past, one part noble idealism, two parts crass violence and terrorism, an admixture of European desire to dump their problem on someone else, and some random luck.
At the same time one could look at the Arab and Palestinian side from the vantage point of the present, and see the same damn checkered past gone wrong.
Or we can just say the hell with it, because its sure a checkered present now. Just call both sides wrong and be done with it, all sides have committed so many wrongs, by now, that they are all well beyond redemption.
At the same time one could look at the Arab and Palestinian side from the vantage point of the present, and see the same damn checkered past gone wrong.
Or we can just say the hell with it, because its sure a checkered present now. Just call both sides wrong and be done with it, all sides have committed so many wrongs, by now, that they are all well beyond redemption.
There's "The historic theft of the land of the glorious Palestinians", "The sin against man the Muslims will end", "Hitler's Legacy: the guilty gift of other's land by Europe", "No You Can't: Why Obama must end the state of Israel", and finally "Soyvey Green: It's made of MUSLIMS!". If you want some less neutral sources, I can check.(Yes, this is a satirical response).
http://www.palestineremembered.com/
plenty of information about the formation of Israel.
shows how they got the land.
plenty of information about the formation of Israel.
shows how they got the land.
- Oct 30, 2000
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Most any response from within P&N will be biased.
After WWI, the Jews started having problems.
During WWII, the world started having problems with the Jews.
The Jews attempted to solve their problems, the world stepped in and screwed up those solutions.
The Jews found another way to solve their problems - to hell with the rest of the world which paid lip service when convienent.
Rinse and repeat that last two phrases.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t...ent_of_the_State_of_I/
Times Online UK has this presentation on the subject.
Times Online UK has this presentation on the subject.
kylebisme
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- Mar 25, 2000
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Wow, "the Jews" vs. the world, eh? Most any other response from within P&N won't be as biased as that.
Anyway, I've read much on the history of the formation of Israel, but never seen a documentary dedicated to the subject, so I Googled and found a decent one, The Birth Of Israel, made last year by the BBC. It presents many interviews from people on both sides of the conflict and some good historical footage as well. Unfortunately, it doesn't go into detail with specific facts as much as I'd hoped, but it is at least a respectable primer on the subject.
Most notably I am disappointed that while they mentioned early Arab violence against Zionists, they present Zionist violence as a response, ignoring early examples dating back to the notable example of the murder of Jacob Israël de Haan, an anti-Zionist Jew. Other than that, It would have been nice if they provided actual statistics on the UN partition plan, how much of Palestine went to each side and the demographic and land ownership statistics of the time and how Zionists actively against Jewish immigration to anywhere but Palestine throughout the Holocaust in a callous ploy to bolster Jewish demographics there, but such facts are easy enough to find online if you are interested.
I heard they had one or two problems before WWI.
By problem, you mean 'deciding whether to let Jews emigrate to escape persecution'?
How exactly had "The Jews attempted to solve their problems" other than fleeing Germna-controlled areas, and how did the world interfere other than closing their borders?
A bit of irony in Nazi Germany having wanted others' land and taken it by force; and the Jews having wanted others' land and taken it by force.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
- Oct 30, 2004
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For a different point of view, albeit one that is historical fiction, you might consider reading the excellent novels Exodus and The Haj by Leon Uris.
It's pretty disgusting to watch most people who look at this issue get it wrong and then go on to advocate the extermination of the people who stand for reason and Western Civilization in favor of a takeover by people who stand for primitive religious mystic barbarism, but that's what folks seem to be advocating.
It doesn't really matter that much what we advocate since Israel will eventually get wiped off the map, one way or another, as a result of demographics -- more rational and higher educated people tend to have few children whereas less-educated people tend to have more children, and "Demographics is Destiny".
The Israelis might want to start giving serious consideration to some sort of a huge land purchase someplace in the world and then a mass evacuation and relocation. I'm guessing that that's already been considered.
It's pretty disgusting to watch most people who look at this issue get it wrong and then go on to advocate the extermination of the people who stand for reason and Western Civilization in favor of a takeover by people who stand for primitive religious mystic barbarism, but that's what folks seem to be advocating.
It doesn't really matter that much what we advocate since Israel will eventually get wiped off the map, one way or another, as a result of demographics -- more rational and higher educated people tend to have few children whereas less-educated people tend to have more children, and "Demographics is Destiny".
The Israelis might want to start giving serious consideration to some sort of a huge land purchase someplace in the world and then a mass evacuation and relocation. I'm guessing that that's already been considered.
- Oct 30, 2000
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This is what they were trying to do with Palestine in th beginning - purchase land for settlements from the locals and/or settle on unoccupied/unudsed land that was unproductive.
Start at the beginning in the late 1800's when anti-semites (mainly English upper class, Irish and Scotts hating too) came up with the idea of Israel to rid themselves of their population of Jews. Pretty much the same plan used to depopulate areas of Ireland and Scottland to make room for English settlement. Bet you thought Hitler's (Final Solution) was a case of virgin birth.
Edit; to answer your question, there are no unbiased books after WW II, try CIA or KGB reports for neutral views.
Red Irish
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- Mar 6, 2009
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The Irish? Certainly anti-semitism existed and exists in Ireland; however, it would not be one of the first countries I would cite when composing a list of anti-semitic nations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...of_the_Jews_in_Ireland
Red - I think he was trying to say that the people in question were anti-semitic in a way that was similar to their biases towards the Irish and the Scots.
- Oct 30, 2000
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There were problems before WWI - That is what started the Zionist movement to try to setup a place for Jews in Palestine. Purchase land via donated funds to setup settlements
And to where they would be allowed to emigrate. Most nations were unwilling to accept them - plus you also had the situation developing out of the USSR. Jews were wanting to get out of there also
The world attempted to slow/stop the emigration to Palestine.
Once that was unable to happen; and localized conflicts developed within Palestine, the British wanted out; the UN setup a two state solution and no one was happy.
Then come the Arab-Israeli wars. Every time Israel had the Arab armies on the ropes; the world stepped in and told Israel to play nice - ignoring the bad boys on the other side that wanted to exterminate Israel. Israel was never crying for a truce or protection even though they were outnumbered. The world would have ignored them. Israel knew that they had to stand fast or die - for them, there was no do-over.
Come after '73, most of the Arab world had come to their senses - they would not be able to remove Israel. However, they still existed a few fanatics and sponsors.
The land the Israel had after inception was as a result of battle by countries that were in control of the land. Those countries and the land's inhabitants had no qualms about destroying Israel. While the inhabitants were hostile toward Israel and will to work toward her destruction; why should Israel accomindate them? The land was lost during battle, - the countries when they cried for relief, did not care/bring up the territory the Israel captured when the routes were happening. It is only when everyone is thought to forget the Arabs' micheif that the issue would come up.
Starting from the '75 Munich incident and onward
Treat the fanatics just like any other enemies of the state.
Target the leaders and instigators no matter where they were located.
If a government wanted to threaten Israel; then the Israel would respond as such.
- Oct 30, 2000
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Red, there may be punchuation issues in his post, He seems to be using the English as the bad guys vs the Irish and Scottish
- Oct 30, 2000
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The book Exodus is interesting, though it's not non-partisan and is written with fictional characters.
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