Any ATOT Stock Traders?

[z1ggy]

Not really looking to get into day trading per se, but I'd like to start investing. In the beginning, I am probably just going to put some cash into a safe ETF and hold. However, I'm really interested in studying and learning charting and trending.

Does anybody here do trading for a living/hobby? If so, does charting and trending really help you increase returns, or is it just some theoretical mumbo jumbo that really only works in hindsight?

Also, if do practice and study these things, which technical indicators do you use? I'm currently using SMAs, EMAs, RSI, MACD & a Fast Stochastic.

Edit: Edited the title. Not actually looking to day trade.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Nope, I buy and hold index funds and ETFs forever. I rebalance by buying more of whatever's underweight.

Cons:
- You don't get rich quick

Pros:
- Taxes are very simple, a few lines to copy from the brokerage form
- Taxes are low since there are only the fund distributions and gains
- Expenses are low since they are low-expense funds with no trading fees
- Effort is close to zero. No research, no market timing.
- Much lower risk, since you're buying a fund of 500+ stocks instead of trying to buy and sell one stock at just the right times.

My advice is to pick a different hobby, but there are some people here that trade individual stocks and might have tips.

 

[nickbits]

Every attempt I've made to "day trade," I have lost money.

However my weekly index investments are up huge over the last few years.

 

[pete6032]

You will never make money day trading.

There seems to be this myth out there that if you just put a few minutes in per day on the side of your normal life to learn about investing, that doing so will qualify you to make investment decisions on a consistent enough basis that you will be able to extract profit from the market in the short term. This could not be any further from the truth.

For 99% of the population the most sound investment strategy is buy and hold. And, unless you are willing to become a hedge fund manager, you are not part of the 1% who can make any money from day trading.

 

[Hugo Drax]

Not really looking to get into day trading per se, but I'd like to start investing. In the beginning, I am probably just going to put some cash into a safe ETF and hold. However, I'm really interested in studying and learning charting and trending.

Does anybody here do trading for a living/hobby? If so, does charting and trending really help you increase returns, or is it just some theoretical mumbo jumbo that really only works in hindsight?

Also, if do practice and study these things, which technical indicators do you use? I'm currently using SMAs, EMAs, RSI, MACD & a Fast Stochastic.

nope nope nope nope.

 

[Tweak155]

I have a friend that does it for a living. He's really good at it so he makes more money year over year (the more money he makes, the more he has to invest, thus profits are higher).

2-3yrs ago he broke $100k. Not sure what he's at now, but for only being 28 he will likely be a millionaire sometime in his 30's.

He recommends to EVERYONE to not do it unless you're ready to sacrifice everything else and just learn about companies, travel to training seminars, and have a strictly emotion free mathematical approach to it.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Nope, I buy and hold index funds and ETFs forever. I rebalance by buying more of whatever's underweight.

Cons:
- You don't get rich quick

Pros:
- Taxes are very simple, a few lines to copy from the brokerage form
- Taxes are low since there are only the fund distributions and gains
- Expenses are low since they are low-expense funds with no trading fees
- Effort is close to zero. No research, no market timing.
- Much lower risk, since you're buying a fund of 500+ stocks instead of trying to buy and sell one stock at just the right times.

My advice is to pick a different hobby, but there are some people here that trade individual stocks and might have tips.

Ding ding. You will not beat the market.

Repeat after me. You will not beat the market. You will not beat the market. You will not beat the market.

You are not smarter than a 5th grader. Right now you're an idiot watching "The World Series of Poker" saying "I'm pretty good at Poker, I can go to Vegas and make some quick money!" What ends up happening to all the people you know that went to Vegas?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I have a friend that does it for a living. He's really good at it so he makes more money year over year (the more money he makes, the more he has to invest, thus profits are higher).

2-3yrs ago he broke $100k. Not sure what he's at now, but for only being 28 he will likely be a millionaire sometime in his 30's.

He recommends to EVERYONE to not do it unless you're ready to sacrifice everything else and just learn about companies, travel to training seminars, and have a strictly emotion free mathematical approach to it.

And when the next crash happens he will.... ?

Also I hope in all of that $100k he is smart enough to diversify..... Which to be honest, $100k isn't much, that's what the purpose of an Index fund is.

 

[Tweak155]

And when the next crash happens he will.... ?

Also I hope in all of that $100k he is smart enough to diversify..... Which to be honest, $100k isn't much, that's what the purpose of an Index fund is.

$100k in a year, not total.

 

[z1ggy]

Wasn't really actually looking to day trade. I guess that was just a bad term on my part. More like intermediate stuff.

Sure I know buying the SPY or some other ETF and just buying and holding is the "safe" and hassle free route. I was thinking more along the lines of buying a stock I think is oversold (granted the right conditions) and monitoring it on a month by month basis.

Most of the charts I look at, and things I read are examined over a 3-6 month period, sometimes longer. I do not intend for this to be a job, or ever become a pro. My buddy has about 30k in stocks right now (my age, mid 20s) and basically just buys and holds, then sells a bit to take profit if it goes up enough. That's pretty much all I want to do. I was really just wondering the legitimacy of charts and trending and it's ability to actually correctly predict stock movement in general.

 

[Arcadio]

basically just buys and holds, then sells a bit to take profit if it goes up enough.

What if it goes down? Then it goes down some more. Are you sure you won't sell to prevent any more losses?

 

[SSSnail]

I used to day-trade, then I got a job.

It can work if you have all of the following:
- A lot, a lot of money you're willing to lose
- Patience
- Cannot be greedy
- Nerve of steel
- Technical know how (this includes knowing momentum, pattern, recognizing book stacking, what the market makers are doing, etc...)
- Be prepared to put in a lot of hours

I know I'm missing a few things, but it's not easy, otherwise we'd all be doing it. But don't let that stop you, it is interesting learning all these things. If you're really interested, talk to a qualified financial consultant if you haven't already, all brokers have materials you can learn from. Start there first, once you're comfortable, then start trading small.

 

[z1ggy]

What if it goes down? Then it goes down some more. Are you sure you won't sell to prevent any more losses?

That depends on which stock it is, and how much it's going down, if it's already oversold, etc. So I can't answer your question definitively.

 

[z1ggy]

I used to day-trade, then I got a job.

It can work if you have all of the following:
- A lot, a lot of money you're willing to lose
- Patience
- Cannot be greedy
- Nerve of steel
- Technical know how (this includes knowing momentum, pattern, recognizing book stacking, what the market makers are doing, etc...)
- Be prepared to put in a lot of hours

I know I'm missing a few things, but it's not easy, otherwise we'd all be doing it. But don't let that stop you, it is interesting learning all these things. If you're really interested, talk to a qualified financial consultant if you haven't already, all brokers have materials you can learn from. Start there first, once you're comfortable, then start trading small.

I get pretty bored at work some days, so I have a lot of down time. Granted, I wouldn't do other work while on my current actual job, but I can read up on tips, trends, etc and study the tools pro traders do use.

 

[JTsyo]

Not really looking to get into day trading per se, but I'd like to start investing. In the beginning, I am probably just going to put some cash into a safe ETF and hold. However, I'm really interested in studying and learning charting and trending.

Does anybody here do trading for a living/hobby? If so, does charting and trending really help you increase returns, or is it just some theoretical mumbo jumbo that really only works in hindsight?

Also, if do practice and study these things, which technical indicators do you use? I'm currently using SMAs, EMAs, RSI, MACD & a Fast Stochastic.

Edit: Edited the title. Not actually looking to day trade.

One thing to keep in mind is the tax rates for short (less than 1 year) trades. Some of your profits is lost but the risk is still there.

 

[pete6032]

If you think you can do it then do a fake run for 6 months tracking your trades in an excel spreadsheet. Give yourself $20k in fake money. Put $10k in a vanguard index fund and with the other $10k start fake trading. Charge yourself $15 per trade and calculate short term capital gains rate for your intermediate trades and long term capital gains for your buy and hold index fund. Let us know which ends up higher 6 months from now.

 

[glenn1]

Wasn't really actually looking to day trade. I guess that was just a bad term on my part. More like intermediate stuff.

Sure I know buying the SPY or some other ETF and just buying and holding is the "safe" and hassle free route. I was thinking more along the lines of buying a stock I think is oversold (granted the right conditions) and monitoring it on a month by month basis.

Most of the charts I look at, and things I read are examined over a 3-6 month period, sometimes longer. I do not intend for this to be a job, or ever become a pro. My buddy has about 30k in stocks right now (my age, mid 20s) and basically just buys and holds, then sells a bit to take profit if it goes up enough. That's pretty much all I want to do. I was really just wondering the legitimacy of charts and trending and it's ability to actually correctly predict stock movement in general.

Sure, why not - what you're talking about isn't day trading at all. Start off with putting the bulk of your stake into a diversified ETF and a small portion (maybe 10%) to invest in a company or two you really believe in and check back in on how they're doing once a quarter or so. As you get comfortable with picking and monitoring a stock you can begin upping the percentage a bit over time.

Technical analysis (i.e. reading charts for "trends") is mostly worthless flim-flam but charts can help inform your fundamental analysis.

 

[z1ggy]

If you think you can do it then do a fake run for 6 months tracking your trades in an excel spreadsheet. Give yourself $20k in fake money. Put $10k in a vanguard index fund and with the other $10k start fake trading. Charge yourself $15 per trade and calculate short term capital gains rate for your intermediate trades and long term capital gains for your buy and hold index fund. Let us know which ends up higher 6 months from now.

I'm guessing this is a rhetorical question?

Either way, I already have a "fake money" stock portfolio via the Stock Wars app. It's very basic- Only buying and selling stock, no options, futures, etc. I probably wouldn't/couldn't get into those any time soon anyway.

Probably wouldn't buy real money stocks right now because it's looking like the market might pull back a decent amount this fall. I'll probably just practice via this fake money app, and watch a bunch of stocks I like.

 

[woodman1999]

Honestly, my best advice would be to buy and hold stocks with good dividend payments and a long history of dividend hikes. In my case, I reinvest the dividend payments rather than take the cash, as I personally believe that reinvestment is a much better long term solution. The same can be accomplished through Dividend ETF's and Mutual Funds, but I like to setup my own allocations.

The above being said, I do on occasion trade around certain names in order to try and generate bigger gains. I do it in my 401k to remove the taxes, however my company does have a 60 day hold policy, so really have to time it right.

 

[Jeffg010]

Ziggy what you need is https://www.scottrade.com/
Each trade is only $7 bucks. It is easy to use for buying and selling stock. Scottrade sucks for IRA though.

 

[OverVolt]

Day trading is hit with super taxes.

Hold positions for at least a year.

 

[z1ggy]

Honestly, my best advice would be to buy and hold stocks with good dividend payments and a long history of dividend hikes. In my case, I reinvest the dividend payments rather than take the cash, as I personally believe that reinvestment is a much better long term solution. The same can be accomplished through Dividend ETF's and Mutual Funds, but I like to setup my own allocations.

The above being said, I do on occasion trade around certain names in order to try and generate bigger gains. I do it in my 401k to remove the taxes, however my company does have a 60 day hold policy, so really have to time it right.

Can you suggest any high yielding ETFs?

 

[OverVolt]

Can you suggest any high yielding ETFs?

Wrong question!

 

[woodman1999]

Wrong question!

That's alright.

SDY is the one I am holding now. FSDIX is what I have for a mutual fund. They have both appreciated nicely and kicked off some income/dividends which gets reinvested and has so far helped to lower my cost basis.

 

[Miramonti]

And when the next crash happens he will.... ?

Also I hope in all of that $100k he is smart enough to diversify..... Which to be honest, $100k isn't much, that's what the purpose of an Index fund is.

Trading works to take advantage of shortterm pricing opportunities. On the other hand, investors are the ones that simply go long and can be hit the hardest by crashes, as they are long everything.

Day trading is hit with super taxes.

Hold positions for at least a year.

Traders (including 'daytraders') have tax super-advantages if they are doing it for more than just a hobby. No capital gains tax, no self-ee tax, and all business expenses can be written off. Holding positions for a year automatically makes these investments, which are subject to capital gains when selling and has a $3k limit per year that one can write off losses for. That means with longterm postions you can't cancel out gains with losses...all gains get taxed at full rate and loss writeoffs have this low cap.