Any antique small engine enthusiasts here?
- Thread starter Eli
- Start date
Eli, help! I've been waiting for a reply to this since October:
- My Wheel Horse 111-5 speed has a mofo Briggs on it that's driving me crazy. I wanted a Kohler on it when I bought the thing back in 1986, but they only offered Briggs. So I bought the top of the line, 11HP commercial duty Model #253707.
It started and ran OK for a few years, but I noticed gasoline dripping from the carb at one point. I removed the air cleaner while it was running and saw the gas wafting back and forth in the carb. Seemed strange. Ultimately I saw that the exhaust and intake valves were open at the same time during part of the cycle. Genius that I am, I filed about .005" from the top of each tappet. Man, that thing had monster power, but I could hear the valves slap against the seats! Sh!t!
So I put some .005" shims in there and it's been that way since. But lately it's been getting harder and harder to start. I rebuilt the carb, but I have to remove the air cleaner before it will start for me. I can crank and crank the stupid thing with gasoline pooling in the carb, but the plug stays dry! SOB! I told this to a guy at work and he said that it sounds like there is crud on the valve seat and it needs to be lapped.
It's got about 800 hours on it now. What should I do with this thing? I could buy a new head gasket, valves, tappets and I'm not sure what else I'll need. Should I get those seats right out of there? It says a special tool is needed to do that. Is that a piece of crap engine to start with? I noticed air leaks in the mofo carb around the throttle shaft ends. I sealed them with "O" rings. It's a work around, but a new carb is $100.00. I knew I should have gotten a Kohler...
Ornery;
Hey.
Well first off, while I have a sound mechanical knowledge of small engines, I'm not awefully experienced in servicing every type of them. I'm more into antique small engines, primarily Briggs. Let's try and nail your problem down, though. It is considerably harder to troubleshoot in text than it is to actually be there and hear the engine run.
Starting with your carb problem. Does it still flood with gasoline? Definately not normal. You need to check and make sure the float is operating properly. It needs to be setup just right, so when the float bowl fills with fuel, the needle seals off the inlet. I suggest you re-build it, as it could be the source of all your problems.
After you put the rebuild kit on, before you put the carb back together, turn it upside down so the float is sealing against the inlet seat. Adjust the tang that controls the float needle so that the float is level when its sealed. Remember to make this adjustment with the carb upside down.
If it has an automatic choke, make sure it's not sticking closed or partially closed.
You should also check to make sure the fuel/air mixture is adjusted properly. You can do this anytime with your engine, but obviously you have to do it after you rebuild it.
I don't know offhand the rough adjustments for your model, but try something like 1/2 - 1 turn out on the idle mixture screw, and 1 1/4 - 1 3/4 out on the highspeed mixture screw. I think that should get the engine started. In any case, once you get it started, you should proceed to fine tune the mixture. With the engine idling, slowly turn the idle mixture screw out. When you reach a certain point, you will hear the engine start to sputter and miss. This is called a rich-roll. Stop, and start turning the screw in. Again, the engine will start sputtering. This is called a lean-roll. Turn the screw back to the middle point between these two conditions, it's usually optimal.
Do the same thing for the high speed mixture screw, but remember to have the engine under at least partial load when you do this.
As for the throttle shaft leaking air, yeah. They get worn out. There is bushings you can get to fix it, but I'd say it's not worth it unless you both have the tools to do it, and like doing that sort of work. Your O-rings will probably work fine, although probably not a long term solution.
The valves are a little trickier, and generally aren't servicable by a do-it-yourselfer unless you have the proper(and expensive) tools, other than the simple lap job. If rebuilding the carb doesen't fix (all of) your problems, I'd take it in and have them give it a valve job for you. You should probably also tell them about your little tappet griding experiment, so they could remove those shims.
Feel free to ask any questions you have. It would be better to take the wrench to your engine having an idea of what the problem is, and what you need to accomplish first, rather than just tinkering. Although that's fun too!
Anyway, Yeah, I like them. I'm more into the antique engines, though. For some reason new engines just don't appeal to me. They don't look cool, they don't sound cool, and they're much too complex. Whatever happened to the good old days?!
Here are some pictures of a few engines I have bought off of flea-bay in the last couple of months.
Briggs Model WI #1
Briggs Model WI #2
Briggs Model WI #3
Briggs Model WI #4
Briggs Model WI #5
Nice briggs Model WI, Type 301101, Serial# 1074316. A latter version, made in February or March of 1949. Should make an excellent restoration project.
Briggs Model NP #1
Briggs Model NP #2
Briggs Model NP #3
Briggs Model NP #4
Briggs Model NP #5
Neglected, but seemingly complete Briggs Model NP, Type# 306598, Serial# 1438659. Another late version of an engine, made in September 1951. Gives me a good excuse to buy a bead-blaster.
Briggs Model Y #1
Briggs Model Y #2
Briggs Model Y #3
Briggs Model Y #4
Briggs Model Y in restored condition, supposedly manufactured 1935. Still haven't gotten it to confirm.
Briggs Model Unknown#1
Briggs Model Unknown #2
Haven't recieved this one yet, either. My best guess is some form of a model N engine, maybe an early version. I like surprises.
Briggs Model 6s
Nothing spectacular about this engine, just thought i'd pick it up. Looks to be in decent condition, and complete. Will be fun to restore. Has a cool old sparkplug in it.
ttyl,
Hey.
Well first off, while I have a sound mechanical knowledge of small engines, I'm not awefully experienced in servicing every type of them. I'm more into antique small engines, primarily Briggs. Let's try and nail your problem down, though. It is considerably harder to troubleshoot in text than it is to actually be there and hear the engine run.
Starting with your carb problem. Does it still flood with gasoline? Definately not normal.
You need to check and make sure the float is operating properly. It needs to be setup just right, so when the float bowl fills with fuel, the needle seals off the inlet. I suggest you re-build it, as it could be the source of all your problems.After you put the rebuild kit on, before you put the carb back together, turn it upside down so the float is sealing against the inlet seat. Adjust the tang that controls the float needle so that the float is level when its sealed. Remember to make this adjustment with the carb upside down.
If it has an automatic choke, make sure it's not sticking closed or partially closed.
You should also check to make sure the fuel/air mixture is adjusted properly. You can do this anytime with your engine, but obviously you have to do it after you rebuild it.
I don't know offhand the rough adjustments for your model, but try something like 1/2 - 1 turn out on the idle mixture screw, and 1 1/4 - 1 3/4 out on the highspeed mixture screw. I think that should get the engine started. In any case, once you get it started, you should proceed to fine tune the mixture. With the engine idling, slowly turn the idle mixture screw out. When you reach a certain point, you will hear the engine start to sputter and miss. This is called a rich-roll. Stop, and start turning the screw in. Again, the engine will start sputtering. This is called a lean-roll. Turn the screw back to the middle point between these two conditions, it's usually optimal.
Do the same thing for the high speed mixture screw, but remember to have the engine under at least partial load when you do this.
As for the throttle shaft leaking air, yeah. They get worn out. There is bushings you can get to fix it, but I'd say it's not worth it unless you both have the tools to do it, and like doing that sort of work. Your O-rings will probably work fine, although probably not a long term solution.
The valves are a little trickier, and generally aren't servicable by a do-it-yourselfer unless you have the proper(and expensive) tools, other than the simple lap job. If rebuilding the carb doesen't fix (all of) your problems, I'd take it in and have them give it a valve job for you. You should probably also tell them about your little tappet griding experiment, so they could remove those shims.
Feel free to ask any questions you have. It would be better to take the wrench to your engine having an idea of what the problem is, and what you need to accomplish first, rather than just tinkering. Although that's fun too!
Anyway, Yeah, I like them. I'm more into the antique engines, though. For some reason new engines just don't appeal to me. They don't look cool, they don't sound cool, and they're much too complex. Whatever happened to the good old days?!
Here are some pictures of a few engines I have bought off of flea-bay in the last couple of months.
Briggs Model WI #1
Briggs Model WI #2
Briggs Model WI #3
Briggs Model WI #4
Briggs Model WI #5
Nice briggs Model WI, Type 301101, Serial# 1074316. A latter version, made in February or March of 1949. Should make an excellent restoration project.
Briggs Model NP #1
Briggs Model NP #2
Briggs Model NP #3
Briggs Model NP #4
Briggs Model NP #5
Neglected, but seemingly complete Briggs Model NP, Type# 306598, Serial# 1438659. Another late version of an engine, made in September 1951. Gives me a good excuse to buy a bead-blaster.
Briggs Model Y #1
Briggs Model Y #2
Briggs Model Y #3
Briggs Model Y #4
Briggs Model Y in restored condition, supposedly manufactured 1935. Still haven't gotten it to confirm.
Briggs Model Unknown#1
Briggs Model Unknown #2
Haven't recieved this one yet, either. My best guess is some form of a model N engine, maybe an early version. I like surprises.
Briggs Model 6s
Nothing spectacular about this engine, just thought i'd pick it up. Looks to be in decent condition, and complete. Will be fun to restore. Has a cool old sparkplug in it.
ttyl,
OMG, I thought the tweakers around here are bad... you're out there Eli! That's more work than I even want to think about. And to think I thought I was putting too much effort into getting my riding mower dialed in! :Q
Do you have any restored engine pics? And where do you find the replacement parts? That's got to be a nightmare.
And thanks for the input on my "problem". I took a video of it starting and running to the place that sells parts and repairs them. I'm a little disturbed that the guy determined that a $20.00 rebuild kit could put it right. It was a waste of $20.00 that I could have applied to a new carb :| You can see in the video that something is wrong. I replaced the seats, adjustment needle valve/screws and tweaked the float to perfection. Sealed the stinken throttle shaft with the rings too. I hate the carb and the engine!
I was just looking for confirmation that this thing was a dog from the get go. I wouldn't know if Briggs are inherently bad, but I bet this particular one is. What do you think it would cost to drop in somebody's lap and say, "Make it right"? Rebuild it, replace the valves, seats, carb or whatever to make it start and run right? If it costs $250.00 and I can replace it with a new Kohler for $500.00, would the repair be the best move? I have a feeling I'd end up being sorry I didn't just buy the Kohler. What's this POS worth now as trade for a Kohler?
You got any old vertical shaft restorations that could replace it?
Thanks again and good luck with those restoration projects!
Do you have any restored engine pics? And where do you find the replacement parts? That's got to be a nightmare.
And thanks for the input on my "problem". I took a video of it starting and running to the place that sells parts and repairs them. I'm a little disturbed that the guy determined that a $20.00 rebuild kit could put it right. It was a waste of $20.00 that I could have applied to a new carb :| You can see in the video that something is wrong. I replaced the seats, adjustment needle valve/screws and tweaked the float to perfection. Sealed the stinken throttle shaft with the rings too. I hate the carb and the engine!
I was just looking for confirmation that this thing was a dog from the get go. I wouldn't know if Briggs are inherently bad, but I bet this particular one is. What do you think it would cost to drop in somebody's lap and say, "Make it right"? Rebuild it, replace the valves, seats, carb or whatever to make it start and run right? If it costs $250.00 and I can replace it with a new Kohler for $500.00, would the repair be the best move? I have a feeling I'd end up being sorry I didn't just buy the Kohler. What's this POS worth now as trade for a Kohler?
You got any old vertical shaft restorations that could replace it?
Thanks again and good luck with those restoration projects!
I don't have any of my own restorations, because I've never fully restored one, like I'm planning on doing now. There's a diffrence between making the engine run again and taking it apart, checking each piece for spec, and putting it back together, re-painted. It's quite a process, requiring quite a bit of time to do correctly.
I'm currently saving up money to buy the tools and equipment needed, while buying engines in the meantime.
Yes, parts are from difficult to next to impossible to find. That's half the fun! Flea-bay is actually a good resource. There's even a company that reproduces the decals that go on the engines. It's only the really old engines, or the rare engines that were only produced in realitivly small numbers that are difficult to work with.
Here's some pictures of other peoples' restorations and engines. I can only hope mine look as good.
Antique Small Engine Collectors Club Picture Gallery
I'm currently saving up money to buy the tools and equipment needed, while buying engines in the meantime.
Yes, parts are from difficult to next to impossible to find. That's half the fun!
Flea-bay is actually a good resource. There's even a company that reproduces the decals that go on the engines. It's only the really old engines, or the rare engines that were only produced in realitivly small numbers that are difficult to work with.Here's some pictures of other peoples' restorations and engines. I can only hope mine look as good.
Antique Small Engine Collectors Club Picture Gallery
Uhm, Eli, this is insane! :Q
(but kinda cool)
I confess that I do have a soft spot for bicycles I guess. Might just aquire one like I had in my youth, and restore it. But that's about it!
(but kinda cool
)I confess that I do have a soft spot for bicycles I guess. Might just aquire one like I had in my youth, and restore it. But that's about it!
Yes, that is quite insane.. Hehe... I'm not sure I'd ever be that bad..
Well, regarding your ailing engine.
It's an I/C engine, right? It should be worth fixing, unless you've like never changed the oil in the 800 hours you've ran it. What'd you say it is, an 11HP? Hmm.
I don't see an 11HP vertical Kohler engine. There's a 12HP. Says "Fits Newer Wheel Horse, Ford". It's $1,000. :Q
In my experience, Honda builds some really nice engines. Honda has several vertical 11HP engines available, they're ~570$ online.
Check out
Tusla Engine Warehouse
and
Roy Padgett's Small Engine warehouse
Of course, that's if you want a new engine. Your current engine is built to give long service life. That's why it even has replacable valve seats, and the like. Carb problems can be a real pain in the ass, but once you solve them, they're usually solved. As for your valves, it's nothing any small engine shop couldn't deal with. If your engine is lacking compression, it might need a complete rebuild.. which could be pretty expensive, but it would make your engine like-new, for quite a bit cheaper than a brand new engine would be.
Well, regarding your ailing engine.
It's an I/C engine, right? It should be worth fixing, unless you've like never changed the oil in the 800 hours you've ran it.
What'd you say it is, an 11HP? Hmm. I don't see an 11HP vertical Kohler engine. There's a 12HP. Says "Fits Newer Wheel Horse, Ford". It's $1,000. :Q
In my experience, Honda builds some really nice engines. Honda has several vertical 11HP engines available, they're ~570$ online.
Check out
Tusla Engine Warehouse
and
Roy Padgett's Small Engine warehouse
Of course, that's if you want a new engine. Your current engine is built to give long service life. That's why it even has replacable valve seats, and the like. Carb problems can be a real pain in the ass, but once you solve them, they're usually solved. As for your valves, it's nothing any small engine shop couldn't deal with. If your engine is lacking compression, it might need a complete rebuild.. which could be pretty expensive, but it would make your engine like-new, for quite a bit cheaper than a brand new engine would be.
Believe me, a nice 8HP Kohler would fill the bill for my silly little rider. And those Honda engines seem way complicated for... a small engine! Sheesh!
I swear, I ought to just drop it off somewhere and tell them to just do it. Would a total rebuild be over $250.00? The damn carb is $100.00 alone! If I were in love with it and it had given me 800 hours of care free use, that would be one thing, but it's really been a stinker.
Damn, talk about complicated, looks like Kohler is OHC too. Sheesh...
I'll give this thing a try in the spring. I'll tear it down myself and see what's what. Maybe there is carbon under the valve or something. If not, I'll buy something new. I can see a total rebuild may be over $250.00 and that's nuts!
I swear, I ought to just drop it off somewhere and tell them to just do it. Would a total rebuild be over $250.00? The damn carb is $100.00 alone! If I were in love with it and it had given me 800 hours of care free use, that would be one thing, but it's really been a stinker.
Damn, talk about complicated, looks like Kohler is OHC too. Sheesh...
I'll give this thing a try in the spring. I'll tear it down myself and see what's what. Maybe there is carbon under the valve or something. If not, I'll buy something new. I can see a total rebuild may be over $250.00 and that's nuts!
Zenmervolt
Elite member
- Oct 22, 2000
- 24,512
- 21
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Got an old Simplicity garden tractor (1976) with a B&S one lunger. The tractor manual says it's a 14 horse, but the engine serial # and the B&S manual say it's a 16. Maybe Brake HP vs. Gross HP? Doubt it in a tractor though. Anyway, the thing runs great, all original except for the new piston and connecting rod that went in last year due to catastrophic oil loss :| Anyway, my experience with B&S has been that they are terrific engines, in fact I prefer that old B&S Single to our neighbor's 3 year old SAimplicity with a Kohler Twin, which I have used to take care of their lawn when they go on vacarion.
Zenmervolt
Zenmervolt
If you had a shop do it, it could come close to that. If your mechanically inclined, though, it's not very hard to do some of it yourself. I rebuilt my first engine when I was 13. You'd save yourself the parts worth in shop labor fees.
Just gather up all the parts you'll need. You'll probably want a carb kit, eh? You'll also need rings. Now the real question. How worn is your engine? If the bore is worn passed .03(Or is it .003? Hm, think it's .03. ), you'll have to have it bored out .010 over, and you'll have to buy a .010 over piston and rings. That will probably run you 50-60$, plus the labor to bore it out. Shouldn't be more than 30-40$, I would guess. You may also need a connecting rod, probably ~30$. Valvejob should run 30-40$. You probably don't need new valves or seats. So what are we looking at here?
Carb kit - 25.00?
.010 Piston/rings - 60.00
.010 over bore/hone - 35.00
Conn. Rod - 40$
Valve job - 30$
Total: ~190$. Hmm. I'm hoping those numbers are worst case. But just imagine what it would be if you had a shop do it all for you.
I really don't know how mechanically inclined you are. But if you did do a complete rebuild, your engine should be good for another 800hours plus.
Briggs and Stratton, for the most part, is a reliable brand. All the small engine manufacturers make "Consumer" engines, which are just cheap pieces of sh!t, designed to run for a few thousand hours, at best, and then you get a new one. They're disposable engines. They have plain bearings, aluminum bores, and valve seats cut into the block. They are worthless.
Then they make the Industrial/Commercial (I/C) line, which has ball bearings, a cast iron cylinder sleeve, replacable valve seats, and most likely quite a few other features that the "plain" engine doesen't have.
Yeah, they've always made "consumer" and "commercial" engines, but they still aren't the same as they used to be. Even the "Consumer" engines were built to last. A lot of the engines I collect were made in the 20s, 30s and 40s. In 2070, I can't imagine people dragging nowadays lawnmowers out of old sheds and barns and restoring them. I guess they probably will though. Just doesen't seem the same...
You'd save yourself the parts worth in shop labor fees.Just gather up all the parts you'll need. You'll probably want a carb kit, eh?
You'll also need rings. Now the real question. How worn is your engine? If the bore is worn passed .03(Or is it .003? Hm, think it's .03. ), you'll have to have it bored out .010 over, and you'll have to buy a .010 over piston and rings. That will probably run you 50-60$, plus the labor to bore it out. Shouldn't be more than 30-40$, I would guess. You may also need a connecting rod, probably ~30$. Valvejob should run 30-40$. You probably don't need new valves or seats. So what are we looking at here?Carb kit - 25.00?
.010 Piston/rings - 60.00
.010 over bore/hone - 35.00
Conn. Rod - 40$
Valve job - 30$
Total: ~190$. Hmm. I'm hoping those numbers are worst case. But just imagine what it would be if you had a shop do it all for you.
I really don't know how mechanically inclined you are. But if you did do a complete rebuild, your engine should be good for another 800hours plus.
Briggs and Stratton, for the most part, is a reliable brand. All the small engine manufacturers make "Consumer" engines, which are just cheap pieces of sh!t, designed to run for a few thousand hours, at best, and then you get a new one. They're disposable engines. They have plain bearings, aluminum bores, and valve seats cut into the block. They are worthless.
Then they make the Industrial/Commercial (I/C) line, which has ball bearings, a cast iron cylinder sleeve, replacable valve seats, and most likely quite a few other features that the "plain" engine doesen't have.
Yeah, they've always made "consumer" and "commercial" engines, but they still aren't the same as they used to be. Even the "Consumer" engines were built to last. A lot of the engines I collect were made in the 20s, 30s and 40s. In 2070, I can't imagine people dragging nowadays lawnmowers out of old sheds and barns and restoring them. I guess they probably will though. Just doesen't seem the same...
Update:
Got the Unknown Briggs engine talked about above. I was right, it's a Model N. Pretty early version, too. Serial# 128067 .. made in May of 1943.
It's a basketcase. It looks like it's sat outside under a tree for the last 20 years. At least it isn't stuck.. Heh..
Will be a fun project. There's a lot of rod slop. Either someone ran it without oil, or more likely, it's had a long hard life..
Got the Unknown Briggs engine talked about above. I was right, it's a Model N.
Pretty early version, too. Serial# 128067 .. made in May of 1943.It's a basketcase. It looks like it's sat outside under a tree for the last 20 years. At least it isn't stuck.. Heh..
Will be a fun project. There's a lot of rod slop. Either someone ran it without oil, or more likely, it's had a long hard life..
Damn, good luck with that acquisition. I can't imagine your parts being any cheaper! And I've got the exact part numbers needed right here with all of them available. I can't imagine how you stumble through the rebuild of an antique!
My carb is completely rebuilt. And I'm a CNC machinist, with access to lathes and boring mills etc. But I'm thinking that there is something inherently wrong with this stupid thing. Perhaps it skipped a tooth and messed up the timing of when the valves open and close? If the teeth were stamped with the wrong tooth for top dead center, I'll never figure that out.
You should have felt the compression when I shaved that .005" from the tappets! Man, it had power like crazy! I guess there is supposed to be a point where both are not completely closed, in order to purge the chamber, or some such. I think I remember reading something along those lines somewhere... heh, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, eh?
I thought by showing that video to the owner of that shop, that he would know instantly what the problem is. Not so. Big disappointment to me. I'll pull it apart. Look for anything obvious and cross my fingers.
Thanks For The Help,
Ornery
My carb is completely rebuilt. And I'm a CNC machinist, with access to lathes and boring mills etc. But I'm thinking that there is something inherently wrong with this stupid thing. Perhaps it skipped a tooth and messed up the timing of when the valves open and close? If the teeth were stamped with the wrong tooth for top dead center, I'll never figure that out.
You should have felt the compression when I shaved that .005" from the tappets! Man, it had power like crazy! I guess there is supposed to be a point where both are not completely closed, in order to purge the chamber, or some such. I think I remember reading something along those lines somewhere... heh, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, eh?
I thought by showing that video to the owner of that shop, that he would know instantly what the problem is. Not so. Big disappointment to me. I'll pull it apart. Look for anything obvious and cross my fingers.
Thanks For The Help,
Ornery
While not quite what you are looking for, I wm into old engines too. However, my interests are in old model airplane engines. Stuff like vintage Brown, Cox, Fox, and so on.
-nut
-nut
There's a lot of people into the little model aircraft engines. I actually have a couple, but they're not "hands on" enough for me. Not to mention you couldn't really use one to power anything. Heh.. I almost bought a Fox brand bicycle add-on engine offa flea-bay once...
Heh, I recieved the Briggs model Y. It was made in April 1936. It needs a valvejob, it spits air back out the exhaust during the compression stroke. :Q
Parts for most engines aren't *terribly* hard to find. I just bought a brand new rod and valves for one of my projects. Total cost was about 50$. Sometimes you can find good deals, then again sometimes people try and shaft you because they know the part is obsolete.
It's nice to hear that you have a mechanical background. Should make things a lot easier, especially if you do have to bore it out.
I guess it's possible, but skipping 1 tooth probably wouldn't make a world of diffrence in how your engine ran.
Yeah. It's normal for both valves to be open at the same time for a moment. I've noticed too.
That's one reason why I love these old engines. They're so simple. If the engine isnt working, you can narrow it down in a matter of minutes. A lot of them don't even have air filters, their carb is so simple.
Heh.. I almost bought a Fox brand bicycle add-on engine offa flea-bay once...Heh, I recieved the Briggs model Y. It was made in April 1936. It needs a valvejob, it spits air back out the exhaust during the compression stroke. :Q
Parts for most engines aren't *terribly* hard to find. I just bought a brand new rod and valves for one of my projects. Total cost was about 50$. Sometimes you can find good deals, then again sometimes people try and shaft you because they know the part is obsolete.
It's nice to hear that you have a mechanical background. Should make things a lot easier, especially if you do have to bore it out.
I guess it's possible, but skipping 1 tooth probably wouldn't make a world of diffrence in how your engine ran.
Yeah. It's normal for both valves to be open at the same time for a moment. I've noticed too.
That's one reason why I love these old engines. They're so simple. If the engine isnt working, you can narrow it down in a matter of minutes. A lot of them don't even have air filters, their carb is so simple.
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