anti terrorist tool

bwanaaa

Senior member
Dec 26, 2002
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Terrorism is guerrila warfare in the urban environment. I find it amazing how this type of conflict has arisen spontaneously-'nihilism with teeth'. It is not a new thing and relies on the individual. With little or no training, literacy or investment in human development, the agents of terrorism rely on the despair of those around them to recruit them into kamikaze missions. I know I am mixing metaphors, but only to illustrate another fundamental flaw in human software. Obviously, the human brain was not designed to permit collaboration of large numbers of its individuals-people have a hard time believing in abstract principles, the greater good, etc. When such organizations arise around them and they cannot participate or be included (sometimes for the most obvious and stupid reasons), they see a line drawn in the sand. And they want to act-because their testosterone drives them. (how many woman terrorists do you know?)

Now I am not suggesting that the water supply of Iraq be dosed with estradiol and prozac, but rather I am pointing out that areas of poverty are the breeding ground of terrorism. Yes, the concept of family is a powerful positive force (children know they came from somewhere) and the concept of microcredit empowering the family to engage in business is a great tool also (a business transaction requires trust and this is a good way to teach trust). However, the maladaptive hierarchies and inequalities within these dysfunctional families can sometimes drive the children away (I say children but also include teenagers) into whatever alternative organization is around.

Can we set up training camps for orphans? Who would run them-well, an international coalition of course-that way all nations will get 'heaven points'. What will they do? well whatever kids do at camps here in the us-play, eat sleep, do crafts, team sports.

Technology is also a wonderful thing that can allow monitoring without intrusion. As you know, we were all on our best behavior in school when the teacher was watching- but when she turned away, scandalous thoughts tempted us and some of us even tasted the action. Imagine if some kids have a cell phone that is always on-even when he/she thinks it is not. Recording sights and sounds, compressing them into burst transmittable packets every 6 hours or so. Now suppose you give these smartphones to a select group of people (but only tell them they are regular cellphones). This select group might be those you consider most likely to be recruited into a terrorist cell-that way you capture the recruitment process, (the players, the location, the MO) Or perhaps you offer select criminals their freedom in exchange for a service. Suppose you have a Filipino drug dealer in jail. Tell him he can go free if he goes to help in one of these camps. Put an RFID chip behind his prostate during his 'routine physical' that includes immunization, stress test, colonoscopy and prep for release abroad, etc,etc. Give him a smartphone and tell him he has to check in EVERY DAY. Now, human nature being what it is, the bad guy will eventually ferret out other bad guys.
When he goes off the grid, you may have some info on the events precipitating his change. And you can always find him with the RFID chip he doesnt know is there.

Terrorism is an action of the individual against the group. Although our literature and history have respected the underdog (because he/she represents the interest of the individual oppressed by the group), in our day, the individual can REALLY TAKE OUT THE GROUP. A nuke, a nerve gas, a bioweapon-these were not around when the American revolution was fought, or in any of the myriad other conflicts that highlight the importance of individual freedom. These weapons are foreign to human nature and offer no survival benefit to the individual-they really should not have been invented. The physicists, chemists, biologists who pursued their development had lost touch with their ability to live as individuals. I shudder to think what horrible weapon is coming next-will someone figure out the underlying principle of gravity? Will the earth be turned into another asteroid belt?

I close this essay with a request for comment on the last paragraph. Those of you reading this may in fact be involved in some of these areas. Would you be so clever as to gently bend the results of your research, projects, efforts so as to prevent weaponization? Remember the military industrial complex ( a word invented by the great american general and president, Eisenhower) has many grade A (and below) people working on weaponizing stuff. These are not supermen-they rise above the rest of us because they stand on the shoulders of the giants who preceded them. How can we remind them and and every one of us for that matter, that our daily efforts should be aimed at improving the life of the individual.

To paraphrase roosevelt 'an ipod in every hand and 2 pcs in every garage'.
 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
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First of all, you are obviously incorrect in implying that poverty is the breeding ground of terrorism. Do some research on the pysch profiles of terrorists. Many of them are well to do, extremely intelligent, and have large amounts of money. Wrong.

Next. Your implication that humans cannot live in close proximity to each other is incorrect as well. Look at countries like Japan as primary examples of extremely low-crime countries. It is a culture issue. Not some magical genetic trait of humans.

Next. You imply that only men are terrorists because of their testosterone. You are completely wrong.

Next. You imply training camps for orphans of some sort. Government run training orphanages run by government officials funded by governments...? Orphanages in the US tend toward being VERY poor, and I'm not talking about monetarily (though that is the case). Horrible idea.

Next. Forcefully implanting objects into humans? Government monitoring on the chance that someone "might" go bad? These are the ultimate in big-brother and anti-civil liberties thoughts. It's 1984-esque to the extreme. Another horrible idea.

Next. Your definition of terrorism as an act of an individual against a group is again completely wrong. Look it up.

Next. Your idea about the scientists "losing touch with their ability to live as individuals" is complete and utter crap. They were scientists. They were doing SCIENCE. Many of the nastiest poisons and gases have been stumbled upon during normal research. Many have been accidentally discovered. In the case of the atomic / hydrogen bomb, they did it because others were doing it - government politics and world power-plays. It had nothing to do with the Scientists morals, ethics, or their individual beliefs.

Finally. The suggestion that world governments stop developing weapons is silly. Weapons are power. Power is control. Control is what a government lives for. You might make the same analogy about money.... but a guy with a gun gets your money every time. To ask them to STOP pursuing what they see as reasonable efforts to defend themselves is silly and naive.

This does NOT belong in highly technical. This sort of politically motivated quasi-argument with no factual basis is much more suited to off topic, where other non-factual quasi arguments can be posted against it and then it can reduce to general name calling.
 

CSMR

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2004
1,376
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Putting chips in criminal is not something that should be ruled out for some purposes, but trying to get any old criminal to act as a spy on terrorists unwittingly using a government provided cell phone is an inane idea. Other than that I'm in agreement with LsDPulsar.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: bwanaaa
A nuke, a nerve gas, a bioweapon-these were not around when the American revolution was fought, or in any of the myriad other conflicts that highlight the importance of individual freedom.

WWII was all about retaining our individual freedoms. As for nukes, it is highly unclear whether dropping the nukes in Japan saved or destroyed more lives than we would have otherwise.
 

bwanaaa

Senior member
Dec 26, 2002
739
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Originally posted by: LsDPulsar

Next. Your idea about the scientists "losing touch with their ability to live as individuals" is complete and utter crap. They were scientists. They were doing SCIENCE. Many of the nastiest poisons and gases have been stumbled upon during normal research. Many have been accidentally discovered. In the case of the atomic / hydrogen bomb, they did it because others were doing it - government politics and world power-plays. It had nothing to do with the Scientists morals, ethics, or their individual beliefs.

Doing science to weaponize a physical principle is irresponsible. Your comment about governments seeking power is a platitude that has no meaning. My point is that responsibility begins with the individual. If you have abdicated your responsibility to humanity that is your choice - you cannot hide behind 'I was only doing science' when you designed the latest trojan/virus, etc. It has nothing to do with government and powerplays-none of them could write a line of code if their lives depended on it. It is you who seeks to aggrandize his ego in a false hierarchy that serves them. You cannot wash away your role in the development of a terrorist weapon by saying 'I was only doing science'. Your comments are negative and in fact only emotional. You didnt even have the courage to address the question I posed. You missed the point.
 

Pulsar

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2003
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I did not miss the point. This discussion has nothing to do with courage and your vague insult is noted and not appreciated. Save it for the political forums.

You have a very naive view of the world.

I don't know of a scientist in the US who develops weapons that they hope are used on people. They are developing weapons that hopefully will be used to defend OUR way of life if they are needed. That's a very humane thing, in my world view.

You seem to have a socialistic / communistic view of the world. Or perhaps I should say an academic view of the world. Even the socialist and communist countries (who may share your philosphy somewhat) understand that they must provide for their defense. They do research towards such ends, understanding that if they do not, someone else will.

You are suggesting everyone throw down their military research, throw down their weapons, and sign campfire songs. That is clearly the argument of either the very young or the very naive. It doesn't work that way in the real world.

Let me say I DO understand when you talk about us nearing the point where destructive technology surpasses our ability to control it. We're dangerously close already. Now THAT may be an excellent subject to discuss here in highly technical.
 

Calin

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: blackllotus
Originally posted by: bwanaaa
A nuke, a nerve gas, a bioweapon-these were not around when the American revolution was fought, or in any of the myriad other conflicts that highlight the importance of individual freedom.

WWII was all about retaining our individual freedoms. As for nukes, it is highly unclear whether dropping the nukes in Japan saved or destroyed more lives than we would have otherwise.

It is however certain that it saved the lives of american soldiers. While every island conquered (garrison, airport) in the Pacific brought great strides in advance against Japan, the casualty list was out of proportion compared with the area of the island (thousands of losses for a square kilometer won - especially in case of small islands).
 

Calin

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2001
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Originally posted by: bwanaaa
Your comment about governments seeking power is a platitude that has no meaning.

You seem to miss everything the US government/president has done in the last years. Governments seek power, but in some cases the fear that elections will put a different party in power restrict them to do this (the fear the bigger powers will be applied against them by the next party)
Governments not seeking power? Those anti-terrorists laws will be wielded against a million law-abiding citizens (or more) for every terrorist caught. The USA have 300 millions inhabitants. How many of these are terrorists?
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
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Originally posted by: Calin
Originally posted by: bwanaaa
Your comment about governments seeking power is a platitude that has no meaning.

You seem to miss everything the US government/president has done in the last years. Governments seek power, but in some cases the fear that elections will put a different party in power restrict them to do this (the fear the bigger powers will be applied against them by the next party)
Governments not seeking power? Those anti-terrorists laws will be wielded against a million law-abiding citizens (or more) for every terrorist caught. The USA have 300 millions inhabitants. How many of these are terrorists?

All of us are if you believe some people.
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
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Originally posted by: ahurtt
Originally posted by: Calin
Originally posted by: bwanaaa
Your comment about governments seeking power is a platitude that has no meaning.

You seem to miss everything the US government/president has done in the last years. Governments seek power, but in some cases the fear that elections will put a different party in power restrict them to do this (the fear the bigger powers will be applied against them by the next party)
Governments not seeking power? Those anti-terrorists laws will be wielded against a million law-abiding citizens (or more) for every terrorist caught. The USA have 300 millions inhabitants. How many of these are terrorists?

All of us are if you believe some people.

Duly noted. You are scheduled to be purged. Run for your life :p