Anti-lock brakes

[Goosemaster]

First of all, I was perusing the web, and found this tibit of interesting info..I'd like to know what you think about it:

From howstuffworks.com

# Do anti-lock brakes really work?
Anti-lock brakes really do help you stop better. They prevent wheels from locking up and provide the shortest stopping distance on slippery surfaces. But do they really prevent accidents? This is the true measure of the effectiveness of ABS systems.

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) has conducted several studies trying to determine if cars equipped with ABS are involved in more or fewer fatal accidents. It turns out that in a 1996 study, vehicles equipped with ABS were overall no less likely to be involved in fatal accidents than vehicles without. The study actually stated that although cars with ABS were less likely to be involved in accidents fatal to the occupants of other cars, they are more likely to be involved in accidents fatal to the occupants of the ABS car, especially single-vehicle accidents.

There is much speculation about the reason for this. Some people think that drivers of ABS-equipped cars use the ABS incorrectly, either by pumping the brakes or by releasing the brakes when they feel the system pulsing. Some people think that since ABS allows you to steer during a panic stop, more people run off the road and crash.

Some more recent information may indicate that the accident rate for ABS cars is improving, but there is still no evidence to show that ABS improves overall safety.

My question is, are ther any drawbacks to ABS at all? I have a good ole' fashion drum(rear) and disc(front)combo and hate pumping it, which brought up a question about ABS:


IS the only disadvantage overconfidenc?

Thanks

 

[Pepsi90919]

if there's any disadvantages it's personal preference. you decide if there's disadvantages, you either like it or you don't.

 

[redly]

you'll never ever be able to "hate pump" the brakes as fast as ABS

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Pepsi90919
if there's any disadvantages it's personal preference. you decide if there's disadvantages, you either like it or you don't.

oh....

Personally, I think I would a ppreciate it. regualr brakes aren;t that bad except in situations where you are at an angle such as fast braking on a hill or winding road etc because you don;t have the balence or have to overcompensate for gravity to levetate your foot whille you pump the brakes. Actually, heavy traffic is worse because ofthe reaction time.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: redly
you'll never ever be able to "hate pump" the brakes as fast as ABS

true dat.

 

[Pepsi90919]

i actually like ABS. i'd rather be able to steer when i slam on my brakes.

 

[acemcmac]

I don't like them. I like to be able to lock all of the wheels of my car on demand and powerslide for emergency stops

1. Lock all wheels
2. Turn car 15-20 degrees to one side
3. Slide to near halt
4. Use remaining momentum to straighten car
5. Admire tire smoke in rear mirror

I gaurentee you that I can stop from 70 a hellova lot faster than a car with ABS..... esp if I commit to it early

<<<< 1999 Mustang

edit: I am only talking about dry roads. I don't get in situations where ABS would be of benefit to me (wet roads)

 

[bmetzger]

my friend was going down a hill and started sliding down the ice when his ABS turned on. he almost died because of it. good thinkg he hit the gas and was able to swirve off to the side before he landed ontop of that house.

 

[Actaeon]

Originally posted by: Pepsi90919
i actually like ABS. i'd rather be able to steer when i slam on my brakes.

Some people think that since ABS allows you to steer during a panic stop, more people run off the road and crash.

Hrm....

 

[acemcmac]

Originally posted by: Pepsi90919
i actually like ABS. i'd rather be able to steer when i slam on my brakes.

it's called drifting and powersliding....

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: acemcmac
I don't like them. I like to be able to lock all of the wheels of my car on demand and powerslide for emergency stops

1. Lock all wheels
2. Turn car 15-20 degrees to one side
3. Slide to near halt
4. Use remaining momentum to straighten car
5. Admire tire smoke in rear mirror

I gaurentee you that I can stop from 70 a hellova lot faster than a car with ABS..... esp if I commit to it early

<<<< 1999 Mustang

edit: I am only talking about dry roads. I don't get in situations where ABS would be of benefit to me (wet roads)

:Q


That would be sweet, but every mornign I take a back road.

2 lane road+50mph+ heavy traffic+ 30degree turns plus deer plus slick pavement =

Hell, if I didn;t have a manual gearbox I woulldn;t be posting right now

 

[PlatinumGold]

it's probably because people don't educate themselves about their cars.

with abs, you should go to an empty parking lot on a wet or snowy day and do a lot of slamming on the brakes and seeing how the car responds. that's what i do whenever i get a new car and have an opportunity to do so.

i don't understand people that drive cars without having any idea of the functionality or limits of their vehicles.

 

[jagec]

Actually, true edge-of-traction braking without ABS will stop you a LITTLE bit faster than just stomping on the ABS. However, it's hard to do, and if you lock up the wheels AT ALL you lost your advantage. Same goes if your brakes are unbalanced...if your rear tires lock up much faster than your fronts, ABS will allow you to use the front brakes to their full advantage, which normal brakes wouldn't. Pumping the brakes is a compromise, but it's slower than ABS. As such, ABS is better for pretty much everyone. As acemcmac pointed out, there are certain things you can do without ABS which are advantageous, but the penalty if you screw up is higher.

Of course, any car with ABS can be "converted" to non-ABS by pulling the fuse, so you might as well get it...

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: acemcmac
I don't like them. I like to be able to lock all of the wheels of my car on demand and powerslide for emergency stops

1. Lock all wheels
2. Turn car 15-20 degrees to one side
3. Slide to near halt
4. Use remaining momentum to straighten car
5. Admire tire smoke in rear mirror

I gaurentee you that I can stop from 70 a hellova lot faster than a car with ABS..... esp if I commit to it early

<<<< 1999 Mustang

edit: I am only talking about dry roads. I don't get in situations where ABS would be of benefit to me (wet roads)

locking the wheels will not stop you faster. want proof? take an object, any object. tie a piece of string to it. put it on the ground. gently pull the string, but don't move the object. pull harder and harder until the object moves. you'll notice it doesn't just slowly start to move, but it BREAKS away in a jolt. that, my friend is what your car does when you lock all four wheels.

now, i know it's a lot more FUN to slide around. but it isn't stopping you faster.

personally, i wish my car had ABS. it has a poor front/rear brake balance and the rear wheels lock way too early.

 

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain

Originally posted by: acemcmac
I don't like them. I like to be able to lock all of the wheels of my car on demand and powerslide for emergency stops

1. Lock all wheels
2. Turn car 15-20 degrees to one side
3. Slide to near halt
4. Use remaining momentum to straighten car
5. Admire tire smoke in rear mirror

I gaurentee you that I can stop from 70 a hellova lot faster than a car with ABS..... esp if I commit to it early

<<<< 1999 Mustang

edit: I am only talking about dry roads. I don't get in situations where ABS would be of benefit to me (wet roads)

locking the wheels will not stop you faster. want proof? take an object, any object. tie a piece of string to it. put it on the ground. gently pull the string, but don't move the object. pull harder and harder until the object moves. you'll notice it doesn't just slowly start to move, but it BREAKS away in a jolt. that, my friend is what your car does when you lock all four wheels.

now, i know it's a lot more FUN to slide around. but it isn't stopping you faster.

personally, i wish my car had ABS. it has a poor front/rear brake balance and the rear wheels lock way too early.

It's not all about stopping distance either, its about being able to slam on your brakes and still have control of your car

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
locking the wheels will not stop you faster. want proof? take an object, any object. tie a piece of string to it. put it on the ground. gently pull the string, but don't move the object. pull harder and harder until the object moves. you'll notice it doesn't just slowly start to move, but it BREAKS away in a jolt. that, my friend is what your car does when you lock all four wheels.

The exception is on snow/ice/gravel/mud, where you are in a dynamic friction state anyway and you want to present as much tire area as possible in the direction of travel. That's why rally drivers are always swinging the rear end out.

Basically, if you can stop in time on pavement, hit the brakes hard and do it. If there's no way you can stop in time and you're REALLY good, you can try doing some fancy tricks to steer around the problem.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
locking the wheels will not stop you faster. want proof? take an object, any object. tie a piece of string to it. put it on the ground. gently pull the string, but don't move the object. pull harder and harder until the object moves. you'll notice it doesn't just slowly start to move, but it BREAKS away in a jolt. that, my friend is what your car does when you lock all four wheels.

The exception is on snow/ice/gravel/mud, where you are in a dynamic friction state anyway and you want to present as much tire area as possible in the direction of travel. That's why rally drivers are always swinging the rear end out.

Basically, if you can stop in time on pavement, hit the brakes hard and do it. If there's no way you can stop in time and you're REALLY good, you can try doing some fancy tricks to steer around the problem.

Actually my brake balance must be horrendous

I have a honda accord(..heavily modified, as in someone crashed into it when it was parkked right in fron of my house ) I have done a lot of work on the suspension to make sure it doesn;t fall apart, but basically it is an EXTREMELY reliable POS that I use to get from A to B.


lTonight for example, on asphalt/road, it would slide on Michelins(very good tread left) from even a moderate to weak amount of brake pressure. For some reason the brake pedal is configured in a fashion that I do not fancy. Bsically, the braking comes all at once at the end; pusign the pedal up to 75% does almost nothing. Bsaically, unelss I am crusing at 30mph or less coming to a light, I HAVE to pump the brakes or it skids.

 

[Goosemaster]

And yes, I have done "tricks" in heavy snow in parking lots and it is AWESOME

Never on dry pavement ebcause I would never hanve money to repalce the tires....oh, and the suspension isn;t even up to stock standards yet ....jujnk yards tuff and such except recently when I spent a lot to fix some wheel bearings and an axle.

I can get an axle for $40 but I don;t know how to put it back together so I haven't tried. I've seen it done, but I don;t even have a ratchet set, much less a pnematic thingy

 

[ajayjuneja]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
it's probably because people don't educate themselves about their cars.

with abs, you should go to an empty parking lot on a wet or snowy day and do a lot of slamming on the brakes and seeing how the car responds. that's what i do whenever i get a new car and have an opportunity to do so.

i don't understand people that drive cars without having any idea of the functionality or limits of their vehicles.

Well, most people live in fear. They never do anything on the verge of losing control, because they are afraid to even try doing that. Then, they end up being unprepared when they would need to understand their cars limits, and screw up, and then an accident that could have been avoided happens. Then they get more scared...

it's a bad cycle. People do need to test a machine's limits so they have a mental note of where the limits are, rather than experiencing the limits only in an emergency.

 

[SuperTool]

The ABS in my car kicks in when I don't want it, as in before I lose traction.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Its exactly like the study says. A lot of people with ABS still pump their brake pedal (like they learned when they took Driver's Ed 20 years before ABS systems), which causes irregular braking and is actually worse than a non-ABS system. They also forget that they're supposed to be steering while braking, which is actually far more difficult than it sounds when you're in a panic stop. Think about it... a car blows through a stop sign and you've got 2 seconds before you slam into it as you're going 50 miles an hour, with other cars on the road and various obstruction to the sides of it. How ready would you be on your morning commute?

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
The ABS in my car kicks in when I don't want it, as in before I lose traction.

Not unless it's broken.

Modern ABS is much more sensitive to lockup than a driver (reflexes absolutely limited to 1/10th of a second, and in reality much slower).

I would guess the relatively high fatality rate is to do with people who hit the breaks, feel them click, and let go thinking something is 'wrong' with them. Then they die.

Some special snow tires (and rally tires) are designed to present a higher coefficient of friction with moderate wheelspin in snow (not ice) than with no wheelspin. Since this is based on tread design, it doesn't really apply to braking, (tread isn't moving anything out of the way if the wheels are locked).

Except in perfect conditions on dry roads, with a well practiced driver, ABS braking dominates non-ABS in every way. In fact, if you are a very good threshold braker, you can threshold brake with ABS and it won't engage (when you screw up, ABS will engage briefly, instead of tire squeal from a locked wheel).

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
In fact, if you are a very good threshold braker, you can threshold brake with ABS and it won't engage (when you screw up, ABS will engage briefly, instead of tire squeal from a locked wheel).

Really? Didn't realize they'd gotten it that sensitive...good to know.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
In fact, if you are a very good threshold braker, you can threshold brake with ABS and it won't engage (when you screw up, ABS will engage briefly, instead of tire squeal from a locked wheel).

Really? Didn't realize they'd gotten it that sensitive...good to know.

There was a 'mechanical ABS' system that played on people thinking ABS cost them braking effectiveness by engaging too early; it claimed to only engage 'when you actually need it'. All that really meant was it was it responded much more slowly to lockup; plenty slow for your car to start spinning on slick or icy roads.

Of course unless your car is perfectly balanced, you can only really 'threshold' one wheel; I would guess that the worse the balance of the car, the more ABS would improve braking; in a perfectly balanced car, you could acheive maximum breaking without engaging the ABS at any point.

 

[T2T III]

I like my ABS brakes. However, I suspected that the rear pads required replacing (at 60K) so, I took it to the shop yesterday. They didn't need to replace the pads, but rather just adjusted them. Also, they realized my master cylinder was leaking - yikes! No wonder why my brakes didn't feel as responsive. Fortunately, the new master cylinder was only $120 + labor. Now, my car stops like a brand new vehicle.