Anti-Aircraft Missles Misplaced in Libya

[a777pilot]

Your number was the arbitrary one. Their number was the ridiculous one.

And also, it's not MSN, it's the Daily Caller (founded by journalist and political pundit Tucker Carlson a conservative commentator for the Fox News Channel, and Neil Patel a former adviser to former Vice President Dick Cheney.)

Still, just a few of these things would bring our commercial aviation industry to a stop.

Or are you contending there were none of these missiles missing in Libya.

I bet you don't trust FOX News, so here's a NYT article for you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/world/africa/08missile.html

 

[Genx87]

I *HIGHLY* doubt that number is correct. Think of that number, 20,000 would probably kill every single mainline combat fighter in active duty in the world. The US airforce currently has 2,132 fighters according to Wiki. Enough missiles to kill the world's largest airforce 10 times over?

The libyan airforce has 374 aircraft, enough missiles to kill every one of them 53 times over. That's not even counting the fact that the euros had fighters overhead all of the time.

Don't think so.

The numbers are probably not that far off. Libya, lacking a real air force would be forced to stockpile other forms of munitions to deal with European or US air force's. And in an event of war with a blockade. You need all the munitions you can have in country at the time of hostilities. Our armed forces probably have hundreds of thousands of these things stored in bunkers around the country and abroad. Enough to wipe out the air forces of the world by multiples.

 

[Genx87]

How and why is this Obama's fault more than the Europeans? Obama doesn't want American boots on the ground in Libya and I can well understand why. The last thing we need is yet another nation building project with an indefinite timeline. The Europeans have some on the ground assets there, and let's face it, they are the ones to economically benefit from all this more than the U.S. Why aren't they protecting these weapons stockpiles? Why does the U.S. have to do everything?

I wouldnt put more blame on either party. But lets be honest. This thing didnt get going until we got involved. We should have learned from Iraq that unguarded stockpiles get looted. This is incompetence in the whole chain of command.

 

[Nebor]

The numbers are probably not that far off. Libya, lacking a real air force would be forced to stockpile other forms of munitions to deal with European or US air force's. And in an event of war with a blockade. You need all the munitions you can have in country at the time of hostilities. Our armed forces probably have hundreds of thousands of these things stored in bunkers around the country and abroad. Enough to wipe out the air forces of the world by multiples.

If that was really the case, why didn't they use any of them?

Also the Stinger (our best MANPAD) is pretty much in the scrap yard at this point. There are essentially no MANPADs capable of engaging modern fighter jets today. They're much better suited to engaging rotary and transport aircraft.

 

[Genx87]

If that was really the case, why didn't they use any of them?

Also the Stinger (our best MANPAD) is pretty much in the scrap yard at this point. There are essentially no MANPADs capable of engaging modern fighter jets today. They're much better suited to engaging rotary and transport aircraft.

How can I answer that question? I am not in the Libyan military.

 

[Nebor]

How can I answer that question? I am not in the Libyan military.

Do you not possess any ability to infer or any common sense?

Do you think the Libyan Army lost the war due to fighter jet intervention and just never thought to use the 20,000 surface to air missiles they had sitting around?

And especially when the French started using attack helicopters, those are prime targets for MANPADS. (Reference soviet union vs stinger missiles in Afghanistan.)

 

[kage69]

Sweet fuggin jeebus, where was this concern when we had larger stockpiles, untended, in the presence of a fired army, in a country where we DID have boots on the ground?

The double standards of the anti-Obama crowd, wow.


If this stockpile does indeed fall into the wrong hands, I wouldn't want to be helicopter crew and I feel the Europeans leading the charge on Libya have dropped the ball. If Obama had a few battalions in country and this happened then I would agree he and his generals would be at fault and responsible for whatever carnage these SAMs produce.

 

[LegendKiller]

The numbers are probably not that far off. Libya, lacking a real air force would be forced to stockpile other forms of munitions to deal with European or US air force's. And in an event of war with a blockade. You need all the munitions you can have in country at the time of hostilities. Our armed forces probably have hundreds of thousands of these things stored in bunkers around the country and abroad. Enough to wipe out the air forces of the world by multiples.

"Hundreds of thousands"? Are you frigging kidding me? The number of military aircraft in the world, total, with all transports and everything, probably would number ~200,000, if not only 100,000. A small country like Libya isn't going to have "hundreds of thousands" of stingers.

I mean, for fucks sake, only ~70,000 TOTAL stingers were ever built. Even if the Russians deployed 3x that number and everybody else 3x again, that would mean that there are ~500,000 total stinger-type missiles in the world. That would mean that Libya has 1/3+ of the *TOTAL* MANPADs produced.

The whole current US inventory is ~13,000. You're telling me that Libya had access to 50% more stinger-type missiles than the ENTIRE US armed forces? You're telling me that they had access to 10x as much?

It's amazing how much people buy into their own logic, or the failed logic of some political pundit without even running through some simple mathematical calculations.

 

[JTsyo]

Also how much do these costs? Are we talking a large percent of Libya's GDP?

 

[Genx87]

"Hundreds of thousands"? Are you frigging kidding me? The number of military aircraft in the world, total, with all transports and everything, probably would number ~200,000, if not only 100,000. A small country like Libya isn't going to have "hundreds of thousands" of stingers.

I mean, for fucks sake, only ~70,000 TOTAL stingers were ever built. Even if the Russians deployed 3x that number and everybody else 3x again, that would mean that there are ~500,000 total stinger-type missiles in the world. That would mean that Libya has 1/3+ of the *TOTAL* MANPADs produced.

The whole current US inventory is ~13,000. You're telling me that Libya had access to 50% more stinger-type missiles than the ENTIRE US armed forces? You're telling me that they had access to 10x as much?

It's amazing how much people buy into their own logic, or the failed logic of some political pundit without even running through some simple mathematical calculations.

These are weapons systems that have been built since 1966 and the early 1970s. How many do you believe total have been built in the past 45 years? Why is it logically impossible for you to believe a regime that has been in power for over 40 years couldnt amass a stockpile of tens of thousands of missiles over that time?

This article was written in June. He does a little fact checking and just from his own survey found a potential ~5200 missiles in one depot.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2011...iles-and-tracking-them-back-to-their-sources/

The 20,000 estimate is coming from the US govt.


http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/...nekcam0.5927698.html?distid=ucs#axzz1T8uT9BgF

Since 2003 the US has managed to destroy over 32,000 SA-7 missiles from various parts of the globe. If they can get their hands on 32,000 of them over 8 years. I dont find it hard to believe there are a lot more in weapon bunkers we cant touch.

 

[Genx87]

Do you not possess any ability to infer or any common sense?

Do you think the Libyan Army lost the war due to fighter jet intervention and just never thought to use the 20,000 surface to air missiles they had sitting around?

And especially when the French started using attack helicopters, those are prime targets for MANPADS. (Reference soviet union vs stinger missiles in Afghanistan.)

They may have used them, I dont know. As reading about the weapon system indicates. The SA-7 is pretty useless against modern military aircraft.

 

[SandEagle]

misplaced? how convenient. no one misplaces these things unintentionally.