Another year with my Insight

[Yuriman]

Forums have been slow lately, so I thought I'd post and give people something to talk about.

2000 Insight 5MT, 220k miles

Some changes I've made:

-640w amp, new head unit, added rear speakers + sub, sounds half decent
-Projector + HID conversion
-Converted side mirrors to camera pods
-Added hitch
-Some custom electronics + corrugated plastic on the underside to improve economy

These cars are not for everyone (to say the least), but even after 3 years of ownership I'm still very happy with it. Some thoughts:

-They're not fast, but around town are more zippy than a Prius and most of the cheapest economy cars. Electric assist is fun, and the tiny 1L 3 cylinder likes to rev.
-Car sits very low, and suspension is stiff. I'm a fan of this, but it's not for everyone.
-Steering is precise and has good feedback. Pretty sure it's a shared rack with the S2000.
-Handling is good in most cases, but could use stiffer rear springs. Conversion from a torsion beam to fully independent would probably help a lot.
-The rear track is narrower than the front, which can cause it to wander in deeply rutted roads.
-Manual transmission is a huge bonus for me.
-The seats are garbage, so I've been looking around for some Recaros or maybe some RX-8 seats, but a butt cushion makes them alright.
-Speaking of seats, it's a two seater. I don't have kids and don't haul my friends around, so this is fine by me.
-Electric torque + manual transmission makes it very easy and safe to tow lighter loads with.


Not bad looking for a 220k mile / 17 year old car. It's great to not have to worry about road salt, due to all-aluminum (as in, nearly everything) construction.

In the time I've owned it, I replaced a leaking master clutch cylinder (~$70), replaced a $2 gasket that was causing a small oil leak around the timing chain tensioner, bought 2 tires for the front, and changed the oil 6 times. Car takes 2.5 quarts, so changes cost me about $15 even with good synthetic.

My ex ran it off the road two winters ago and smashed up the front end, and that needed a CV axle, tie rod bolt, control arm and a new rim, but those weren't wear related failures. Parts were all available and cheap online, with aftermarket options even available in aluminum like the stock ones.

The previous owner claimed to have only serviced it at the dealer in Charlotte he bought it from, which I'm inclined to believe, but in terms of records there's little more than 14 years of passed inspections, oil changes, a set of tires, a 12v battery, and a coolant flush. I bought a set of brake pads and rotors for it on a whim (about $25 total for all 4 corners), but they're sitting boxed, waiting for the day the factory pads wear out. The rear shoes have at least 75% life left, and the fronts will probably be good for another 20-40k miles at least. The A/C still blows cold, and the hybrid battery still provides strong assist.

Aside from that, I've checked valve lash (in spec), pulled off the VTEC solenoid to clean the filter (spotless), and pulled off the EGR plate and cleaned some crud out, which wasn't yet affecting drivability.

Fuel economy:

In the dead of winter, I found my tank averages were creeping down toward ~65mpg. In the summer, I typically get closer to 75-80mpg, with my best tank to date being 84mpg over ~760 miles, which was mostly driving on backroads at 50-60mph, obeying or going ~5 over the speed limit.

Yesterday it was 72F and sunny, and I drove the ~55 miles to see my father. I set the cruise control to ~55 on the backroads and turned up the music. Round trip (A-B-A), I averaged over 100mpg on gasoline alone (even charged the hybrid battery up a bit) over more than 100 miles, with a 17 year old hybrid battery and 220k mile engine, with no tricks. I was pleased.

Considering the price of electricity here is ~16-17 cents per kwh and gasoline is about $2.40 per gallon, an electric car would need somewhere in the range of 180-250mpge to have the same cost per mile, not taking into account maintenance, of which I've had virtually none.

Overall, it has been extraordinarily reliable and cheap to own and, more importantly, pretty fun to drive. I miss having a targa/convertible sometimes, but you can't have it all. I'll probably pick up a Miata or S2000 at some point for a second car, to drive when the weather is nice.


So, I'd like to hear some thoughts from others? How well do you like your car? What do you like/dislike about it? How has ownership been? What would you replace it with?

 

[Kaido]

I always thought the wheel skirt design on the Insights was pretty awesome, glad you're having a good time with it!

 

[Kaido]

So, I'd like to hear some thoughts from others? How well do you like your car? What do you like/dislike about it? How has ownership been? What would you replace it with?

I have a '15 Jeep Renegade at the moment, which is possessed by the ghost of FCA's quality manager. Currently looking around for something to replace it with. I was planning on keeping it 15+ years, but at over 70 days in the shop in less than 1.5 years of ownership...nope. This week, the trunk kept popping open randomly (electronic) & last week it kept refusing to start because it thought the shifter wasn't in park. Just an endless list of problems. I'll be going in for my fifth BCM next month. Aside from that, it's roomy & gets through the snow pretty good, haha.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

That gauge cluster is awesome.
As far as my car it's a 10 Honda fit. Had 45k miles when I bought it. Its at around 50k now. Changed the coolant, brake fluid, trans fluid, oil, and cabin and air filters. It's a 5 spd manual. Loving it tbh. Sure it's nowhere near nearas nice as the vehicles I've had before but it's peppy enough and handles well. Shifting gears again is fun. Best of all its paid for.

 

[tweakmonkey]

I swapped in s2000 seats and steering wheel to mine when I had it. Made it much more liveable.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Very cool. I do like those little ones.

I don't understand why people want a "revvy" engine though - I want one that pulls at idle, snaps my head back at 2k rpm, makes me beg for mercy at 3k, and is a war crime past 4k.

But nobody makes those anymore.

 

[Yuriman]

Very cool. I do like those little ones.

I don't understand why people want a "revvy" engine though - I want one that pulls at idle, snaps my head back at 2k rpm, makes me beg for mercy at 3k, and is a war crime past 4k.

But nobody makes those anymore.

The way I look at it, if you're going to stick with a 1L for economy reasons, better that it revs than not. Torque is largely a function of displacement.

 

[XavierMace]

Very cool. I do like those little ones.

I don't understand why people want a "revvy" engine though - I want one that pulls at idle, snaps my head back at 2k rpm, makes me beg for mercy at 3k, and is a war crime past 4k.

But nobody makes those anymore.

It's called an LSX.

 

[Herr Kutz]

I have a '15 Jeep Renegade at the moment, which is possessed by the ghost of FCA's quality manager. Currently looking around for something to replace it with. I was planning on keeping it 15+ years, but at over 70 days in the shop in less than 1.5 years of ownership...nope. This week, the trunk kept popping open randomly (electronic) & last week it kept refusing to start because it thought the shifter wasn't in park. Just an endless list of problems. I'll be going in for my fifth BCM next month. Aside from that, it's roomy & gets through the snow pretty good, haha.

Coworker has a jeep liberty that had engine failure. He's been in a rental for the past two or so weeks with no end in sight.

 

[postmortemIA]

The way I look at it, if you're going to stick with a 1L for economy reasons, better that it revs than not. Torque is largely a function of displacement.

Or turbocharger.

 

[NutBucket]

Coworker has a jeep liberty that had engine failure. He's been in a rental for the past two or so weeks with no end in sight.

Sounds like he got an upgrade for a couple months.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I'd love to find a decent one for not too much to use as a daily driver here.

Was checking Craigslist and there was one in Tucson that was cheap but he'd removed the battery (said it he did something so it wouldn't throw lights/codes). Would almost be tempting, but the way he described it made it sound like it might be a hassle. Claimed he was still getting almost the same MPG despite just using the engine, which I can only assume he must've been doing highway driving.

The city driving here has actually suited my Mom's Prius well, she was getting like 43MPG on her mostly highway commuting before, but now it's been getting ~51 (was actually doing 55 for that bit there where the weather was nice enough that you didn't use the climate control, but now that hitting the A/C practically constantly it's dipped down).

There were a couple of others. One was newer and had less than 100K, looked similar to yours (silver and pretty clean) by a dealer for 6K (don't have enough disposable money otherwise I'd go check it out). Another one was non-dealer for ~$3k, and it was in ok shape, but had lots of miles and was older. Also the top (A pillars, roof, and C pillars) was painted white for some reason, not sure if that was because they liked the look, had to paint it to cover something up, or they were doing the "white roof reflection" thing since its so hot down here.

Oh, OP, how's the manual transmission/clutch costs/repair/replacement? I'd think about the manual one as I thought maybe it'd be a good learner (have a few people, including a couple of driving age nephews and a 3rd nephew that's only a few years from that age; figure it will definitely go through a clutch or two). Would it be good for that do you think? Would it cost much? Or would it be hard on the drivetrain (engine, etc)?

 

[Yuriman]

An Insight with the battery removed would indeed get similar economy to one with it in place, even in city driving. Electric assist mostly makes it more fun to drive. It has abundant torque down low with the IMA functioning, and is more than a bit anemic without, but can still accelerate reasonably if you rev it up a bit more. There are some on IC that are working on inexpensive Nissan Leaf cell lithium replacements, but it's not ready yet.

The 5MT has a tendency to develop a grind when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd, and it's not from syncro wear but from a design flaw. It's common for people to open the transmission and remove a tab that causes this to happen, and have the syncros last virtually indefinitely afterward. Mine has a slight grind from 3rd to 2nd, so I double clutch when dropping from 3 to 2, or, if I'm in a hurry, I'll push against 1st before dropping into 2nd to use 1st's syncros. Otherwise the 5MT is bulletproof.

Regarding the automatics, this was one of Honda's early CVTs and the IMA system has a relatively large amount of torque (peaking at ~115 around 1500rpm I think?), causing them to have a relatively short expected lifespan of something like 175-250k miles, whereas the 5MT will last virtually forever. Considering most of these cars have 175-250k miles at this point, I'd only consider a CVT if you found one with really low miles. Consider changing the fluid every 30k if you go this route.

The engine is bulletproof. There are examples of 500k+ mile engines and even a few 650k+ mile engines which still have good compression and run well. A handful of people have had broken camshafts, but it's relatively rare. I've never heard of a bottom-end or valve failure of any kind, and it uses a timing chain which I've also never heard of anyone replacing.

Clutch and input shaft bearing cost is just about the same as any Civic of similar year, and parts are easy to find. The clutch tends to last a long time because these cars are so light though. I'm still on my original clutch at 220K and it feels fine. There are no aftermarket CV axles though, so I don't recommend abusing them or you'll have to pay dealer price.

Regarding comparing it to a Prius, I feel Toyota's synergy drive is more suited to city driving than Honda's IMA. The Insight will still beat a Prius most of the time in city economy, but not by as much as you'd expect considering it weighs 33% less. If you don't mind rowing gears around town, it's not a bad choice, but the Insight really excels as a highway cruiser, delivering 60+ mpg at 75mph, or in excess of 80-90mpg if you're on backroads driving 50-60.

 

[HarryLui]

I put RX8 seats in mine. 36/34 lbs for the Insight seats, 42/40 lbs for the RX8 seats.

Also, updated the 3 engine sad engine grounds.

 

[darkswordsman17]

An Insight with the battery removed would indeed get similar economy to one with it in place, even in city driving. Electric assist mostly makes it more fun to drive. It has abundant torque down low with the IMA functioning, and is more than a bit anemic without, but can still accelerate reasonably if you rev it up a bit more. There are some on IC that are working on inexpensive Nissan Leaf cell lithium replacements, but it's not ready yet.

The 5MT has a tendency to develop a grind when downshifting from 3rd to 2nd, and it's not from syncro wear but from a design flaw. It's common for people to open the transmission and remove a tab that causes this to happen, and have the syncros last virtually indefinitely afterward. Mine has a slight grind from 3rd to 2nd, so I double clutch when dropping from 3 to 2, or, if I'm in a hurry, I'll push against 1st before dropping into 2nd to use 1st's syncros. Otherwise the 5MT is bulletproof.

Regarding the automatics, this was one of Honda's early CVTs and the IMA system has a relatively large amount of torque (peaking at ~115 around 1500rpm I think?), causing them to have a relatively short expected lifespan of something like 175-250k miles, whereas the 5MT will last virtually forever. Considering most of these cars have 175-250k miles at this point, I'd only consider a CVT if you found one with really low miles. Consider changing the fluid every 30k if you go this route.

The engine is bulletproof. There are examples of 500k+ mile engines and even a few 650k+ mile engines which still have good compression and run well. A handful of people have had broken camshafts, but it's relatively rare. I've never heard of a bottom-end or valve failure of any kind, and it uses a timing chain which I've also never heard of anyone replacing.

Clutch and input shaft bearing cost is just about the same as any Civic of similar year, and parts are easy to find. The clutch tends to last a long time because these cars are so light though. I'm still on my original clutch at 220K and it feels fine. There are no aftermarket CV axles though, so I don't recommend abusing them or you'll have to pay dealer price.

Regarding comparing it to a Prius, I feel Toyota's synergy drive is more suited to city driving than Honda's IMA. The Insight will still beat a Prius most of the time in city economy, but not by as much as you'd expect considering it weighs 33% less. If you don't mind rowing gears around town, it's not a bad choice, but the Insight really excels as a highway cruiser, delivering 60+ mpg at 75mph, or in excess of 80-90mpg if you're on backroads driving 50-60.

Thanks for the information! Ah, yeah I kinda figured the Insight was more at its best on the highway, but didn't realize how little the motor actually impacted that. Unfortunately down here, even on the freeways there's still an awful lot of stop and go, so yeah rowing gears might get tedious.

Oh, quick other question, did they do an electric condenser for the A/C at any point? I know on the Prius they added it later, so wasn't sure if that's something I'd need to be concerned about as well.

 

[Yuriman]

No, it was belt driven for every year of the G1, not sure about the G2. If you set the climate control to "Auto", it prevents auto-stop when the A/C compressor needs to run, whereas setting the climate control to "Econ" allows the engine to shut off more frequently, at the expense of the vent air gradually warming up at stoplights and such.