Another terrible progressive idea: government subsidized day care loans

[SpatiallyAware]

I don't doubt that. What I DO doubt is that time limiting welfare causes a higher percentage of the population to be employed. Explain to me how that would work.

I guarantee that if these people knew they were going to be bussed to detroit they would have NO problem finding a min wage job or two. Yes, it would be a lot of hard work, but that's what happens when you refuse to care about your own future and just live life day by day.



Instead, they show up at the welfare office with applications to the three local beauty parlors (and btw they don't have hair cutting licenses anyway.....) and act like they've done everything possible and just can find work because of the evil republican and greedy corporations.

 

[ivwshane]

How many homeless people, in general, were running around NYC along with those children as well? In the days when people were flocking to this country in droves and droves to just live off the land, what can you expect.

But I do like how you had to go back two centuries to a rather tumultuous time in this country with worse/non existent sex education to try and counter my argument.

He goes back two centuries because that's where your ideas come from, it's when they were tried, and it's where those ideas died.

 

[poofyhairguy]

I don't doubt that. What I DO doubt is that time limiting welfare causes a higher percentage of the population to be employed. Explain to me how that would work.

I didn't say anything about welfare limits changing the unemployment rates. I did say it gets more people who are on welfare participating in the labor force.

Source:

The erosion of TANF benefits, combined with time limits and
increased work requirements, have resulted in an overall reduction in income from welfare and
increased labor force participation among former welfare recipients.

http://paa2008.princeton.edu/papers/81285

 

[Munky]

I can tell it's a dumb idea because people who qualify for loans are primarily not the ones needing the most help supporting their kids. Not that I would expect your typical progressive New Yorker to realize that inconvenient fact.

 

[ivwshane]

I guarantee that if these people knew they were going to be bussed to detroit they would have NO problem finding a min wage job or two. Yes, it would be a lot of hard work, but that's what happens when you refuse to care about your own future and just live life day by day.



Instead, they show up at the welfare office with applications to the three local beauty parlors (and btw they don't have hair cutting licenses anyway.....) and act like they've done everything possible and just can find work because of the evil republican and greedy corporations.

Bussed to Detroit? Is that like a modern day concentration camp? Just have the government round up the poor, sick, and lazy and drop them off in a shit hole? Yeah that sounds perfectly reasonable and constitutional.

 

[nehalem256]

It is a disgusting epidemic. And note that I am talking about LAZY people in my posts, not simply poor people. I do recognize that good people can fall on hard times and need help. The issue really boils down to how do you help the ~5% of who NEED help while weeding out the 95% who have found it culturally acceptable to milk the gubment teat for all it's worth.

Which is in no way the intent of welfare programs. That would be closer to something like unemployment insurance.

I mean we have things like WIC which give pregnant women and new mothers. Sorry, but being pregnant and unable to feed yourself is not exactly fall on hard times. Its jumping off a cliff.

 

[poofyhairguy]

You didn't answer my question. How is putting a time limit on welfare benefits going to get these people jobs? Sure, in some cases the extra motivation might mean a given person finds a job, and in that case someone else is simply displaced into unemployment. Any economy with structural unemployment has this dilemma. There will always be people out of work because there simply isn't enough demand for labor. While welfare may in some cases degrade a person's motivation, I'm really not sure how that is relevant if the jobs don't exist.

Because it keeps people from being dependant on welfare as a way of life. If every couple years you have to get off the dole- even if that puts someone else on the dole- at least you keep some idea of what its like to put in a days work, and your resume isn't completely ancient history.

 

[fskimospy]

Man I'm sure you've had a hard time but cry me a river.

Glad you made it ok, but coming out of a broken and frustrated home is nothing like what is going on in the ghettos (ghettos of ALL colors btw) nowadays.

From a cultural perspective, feeding off the government dole is something to be proud of. The weekend get togethers are full of conversations about the best churches to get food from, the hood rat who will pay the most for your EBT card money, and the best way to scam that gubment check. The latest/greatest is enlisting into the military, get booted out due to unfixable anxiety/behavioural/PTSD (even from people never deployed) just to scam VA benefits.

It is a disgusting epidemic. And note that I am talking about LAZY people in my posts, not simply poor people. I do recognize that good people can fall on hard times and need help. The issue really boils down to how do you help the ~5% of who NEED help while weeding out the 95% who have found it culturally acceptable to milk the gubment teat for all it's worth.

Did you miss the part where I frequently interact with poor people? Let me guess, I just happen to know the good ones.

 

[xBiffx]

He goes back two centuries because that's where your ideas come from, it's when they were tried, and it's where those ideas died.

Never been "tried". No one took anything away two centuries ago. They were never there to begin with.

 

[thraashman]

I guarantee that if these people knew they were going to be bussed to detroit they would have NO problem finding a min wage job or two. Yes, it would be a lot of hard work, but that's what happens when you refuse to care about your own future and just live life day by day.



Instead, they show up at the welfare office with applications to the three local beauty parlors (and btw they don't have hair cutting licenses anyway.....) and act like they've done everything possible and just can find work because of the evil republican and greedy corporations.

And I can guarantee you that you're full of shit and know absolutely nothing about the underprivileged and working class poor.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Bussed to Detroit? Is that like a modern day concentration camp? Just have the government round up the poor, sick, and lazy and drop them off in a shit hole? Yeah that sounds perfectly reasonable and constitutional.

Seems reasonable to me.


I'm not saying round up the poor, or sick. Just the lazy.

We're running out of room and can't afford to pay for obama's constituents luxuries any further.

Shit detroit is the liberal mecca, a perfect example of a democrat's utopian society. They've had the benefit of an all liberal leadership for some 30 years. Sounds like a great fit, no?

 

[xBiffx]

Did you miss the part where I frequently interact with poor people? Let me guess, I just happen to know the good ones.

Well if they are receiving assistance from charitable people like yourself then they are the good ones (or at least better off ones). 😉

 

[fskimospy]

Because it keeps people from being dependant on welfare as a way of life. If every couple years you have to get off the dole- even if that puts someone else on the dole- at least you keep some idea of what its like to put in a days work, and your resume isn't completely ancient history.

Right, but there aren't enough jobs out there for the people who want them. How does this make more jobs?

 

[nehalem256]

And I can guarantee you that you're full of shit and know absolutely nothing about the underprivileged and working class poor.

Well how about NPR. Are they a reputable source?
http://www.npr.org/2012/07/11/155103593/to-beat-odds-poor-single-moms-need-wide-safety-net

Stepp has three children by three different fathers. The father of her eldest child, 10-year-old Isaiah, is serving 30 years in federal prison for armed robbery.

"He's met my son one time, when he was a baby. And he decided that he didn't want him," she says.

Stepp's middle child, 8-year-old Shyanne, usually sees her father every other weekend. But the father of her younger son is also in prison. Stepp says he's been behind bars for selling cocaine since she was pregnant. He has never met 1-year-old Makai.

Gee, I wonder why she is poor? :hmm:

Now, Stepp and her kids live in a three-bedroom apartment in the city. She doesn't let her kids play in city parks, because she's worried about crime and broken glass. Her employer, Opportunity House, pays half the rent. It's one of many things her employer does to help her out.

Stepp says her parents also struggled, and they didn't really show her how to apply for a job or to college. She had to figure it out herself. Still, her safety net is pretty broad. Her mother stops by many nights to help put the kids to bed. Stepp also gets food stamps and medical aid for the kids.

After her kids go to sleep, around 10:30 p.m., Stepp has a chance to reflect. She says it bothers her that single mothers sometimes get a bad name, that people think they just have babies and collect welfare. She says she briefly received welfare benefits a few years ago, but not now.

She doesn't collect welfare; just food stamps, medicaid, and subsidized housing from her employer. She must be one of the "good ones".

But maybe she is a rare case:

Take the case of 29-year-old Jennifer Stepp, who lives in Reading, Pa. Like 14 million other people in the U.S. who live in families headed by single mothers, she's poor. And she faces incredible odds.

Darn.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Right, but there aren't enough jobs out there for the people who want them. How does this make more jobs?

Total BS. These people can find work, just not the work they want.


If they can't make $50k flipping burgers or stocking walmart shelves then they'd rather live the welfare life.... And it's like that purely due to bleeding heart policies that actually push these people towards taking a handout rather than work an honest days' work.

 

[fskimospy]

Total BS. These people can find work, just not the work they want.


If they can't make $50k flipping burgers or stocking walmart shelves then they'd rather live the welfare life.... And it's like that purely due to bleeding heart policies that actually push these people towards taking a handout rather than work an honest days' work.

So you're saying that the US could be at 0% unemployment if it weren't for lazy people?

 

[poofyhairguy]

Right, but there aren't enough jobs out there for the people who want them. How does this make more jobs?

It doesn't directly. I don't claim it does create more jobs directly.

What welfare limits DO achieve is that the population who works and the population who doesn't isn't always the same people.

That benefits society in two ways:

1. People who would normally be on welfare their entire lives are forced off of it and forced to work. This pretty much creates a mandatory work ethic, or at the very least ensures that almost everyone has SOME jobs skills so society is ready if the economy creates more jobs.

2. People who never will be on welfare and work all the time don't feel like they are getting the bad end of the deal as someone else sponges up their tax dollars not to work. The producers in society are therefore more inspired to produce (and maybe create new jobs) because they feel that the safety nets are there to help the "down on their luck" people and not just the chronically lazy.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

So you're saying that the US could be at 0% unemployment if it weren't for lazy people?

I could not care less about our falsely reported unemployment numbers.


I have more of an issue with the 'fake disability' people (which don't even affect the unemployment numbers) than I do with people on unemployment.

 

[nehalem256]

Right, but there aren't enough jobs out there for the people who want them. How does this make more jobs?

Maybe they could take some of the jobs away from illegals that "American's wont do"?

 

[poofyhairguy]

And before you say: "Well that sounds great, the problem is there are no jobs for people being kicked off welfare to get!"

I pre-emptively say that is BS. Where my parents live in West Texas the unemployment rate is less than 6%. Fast food places have to pay more than $10 an hour just to have enough staff to stay open.

Maybe people need to spend that last welfare check on a Greyhound ticket to get to a place with more opportunity.

 

[ivwshane]

It doesn't directly. I don't claim it does create more jobs directly.

What welfare limits DO achieve is that the population who works and the population who doesn't isn't always the same people.

That benefits society in two ways:

1. People who would normally be on welfare their entire lives are forced off of it and forced to work. This pretty much creates a mandatory work ethic, or at the very least ensures that almost everyone has SOME jobs skills so society is ready if the economy creates more jobs.

2. People who never will be on welfare and work all the time don't feel like they are getting the bad end of the deal as someone else sponges up their tax dollars not to work. The producers in society are therefore more inspired to produce (and maybe create new jobs) because they feel that the safety nets are there to help the "down on their luck" people and not just the chronically lazy.

How long are people typically on welfare for? How many are "lifers" or repeat users?

 

[fskimospy]

I could not care less about our falsely reported unemployment numbers.

I have more of an issue with the 'fake disability' people (which don't even affect the unemployment numbers) than I do with people on unemployment.

Uh oh, another numbers conspiracy! Damn that Obama and his secret number changing minions!

 

[ivwshane]

Uh oh, another numbers conspiracy! Damn that Obama and his secret number changing minions!

That's what makes Obama so dangerous! Nixon couldn't get to the BLS but Obama did! Scary stuff.

 

[poofyhairguy]

How long are people typically on welfare for? How many are "lifers" or repeat users?

Most people are on welfare for a short time:

The majority of families who leave the welfare system do so after a relatively short period of time -- about half leave within a year; 70 percent within two years and almost 90 percent within five years.

But, when a welfare way of life is just sitting there, many can't resist sliding back in:

Many return almost as quickly as they left -- about 45 percent return within a year and 70 percent return by the end of five years.

And some people certainly make being on welfare a way of life:

One-third of women who ever use welfare will spend longer than five years on the welfare rolls and 60 percent will spend 24 months or longer receiving assistance.

source:

http://www.urban.org/publications/900288.html

 

[nehalem256]

How long are people typically on welfare for? How many are "lifers" or repeat users?

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/11/155103593/to-beat-odds-poor-single-moms-need-wide-safety-net

See this story. While she is not technically on the "welfare", she is on food stamps, medicaid, and has 1/2 her rent paid for by a charity.

Given that her oldest child is 10 years. I am going to bet she has been a "ward of the state" for about that long.

Since the source is NPR I am going to assume that the woman is either representative or is one of the "good ones" so to speak.