Another Side of Net Neutrality

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Government-IT/Another-Side-of-Net-Neutrality-214476/

The FCC has been in the news lately for its attempts to get serious about regulating the actions of Internet service providers, in the name of what parties to the discussion call “Net neutrality.” The most fluff-brained of commenters seem to be following the idea that, to borrow the words of Thomas Jefferson, all Internet traffic is created equal.

Jefferson’s famous line from the Declaration of Independence was rephrasing the words of his friend and neighbor Philip Mazzei, who in 1774 wrote in the Virginia Gazette: “All men are by nature equally free and independent. Such equality is necessary in order to create a free government. All men must be equal to each other in natural law.”

Jefferson, as a slaveowner and a scion of the Virginia gentry, did not mean that all persons are gifted with the same abilities or advantages. Such an idea would have been as ridiculous in his time as it is today, whether we speak of people or packets.

The problem with a Jeffersonian approach to Net neutrality is that all Internet packets are not equal, when one looks at traffic from an engineering standpoint. Why? The answer is network latency.

We run into latency every day, when we try to stream video or audio, or move a file from one device to another. Anyone who has waited for YouTube to buffer, or a stalled download to restart, has run into the problem.

The reality is that simple file transfers can handle brief interruptions without significantly detracting from the user experience. Video streams, in direct contrast, cannot. Audio streaming is slightly less brittle than video in its ability to tolerate network congestion, but is more demanding than an ordinary file transfer.

The mechanisms for controlling and prioritizing network traffic are well-defined, at least from an engineering perspective. Quality of service, or QoS, has been a well-understood concept in networking for years, and I have no problem with a carrier that prioritizes its traffic based on what the traffic does, but I’m less comfortable with prioritizing based on where the traffic’s going.

Some degree of traffic shaping is necessary to enable the best service levels for the most customers, and to facilitate the peering agreements that make the Internet possible in the first place. But some supporters of Net neutrality want to throw this baby out with the bath water.

Much of the discussion of net neutrality focuses on network access. For much of that discussion, I’m in the “equal access” camp; carriers and ISPs ought to allow traffic across their networks without unreasonable restrictions as to destination, source or type. The FCC was slapped down by a U.S. appeals court in early April for its attempts at ensuring that carriers and ISPs follow that rule. FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski is going to have another try at establishing this principle, by declaring that ISPs are subject to the same rules as telephone networks, and I wish him success.

Obviously, network operators have the right (and perhaps the duty) to forbid malicious traffic; but who decides what is malicious? That job belongs to the people (acting through government), not the carriers.

I become especially cross when a carrier or ISP flat-out blocks certain traffic because it competes with its own services, or because it belongs to a certain application class. Peer-to-peer services such as BitTorrent are especially prone to being targeted by carriers and ISPs, as well as technically unsophisticated politicians, because they are seen as facilitating copyright violations and even less savory activities.

But the last time I looked, we don’t require Soviet-style controls on photocopiers that might be used to make unauthorized copies. We don’t outlaw "The Anarchist Cookbook" because someone might pick up a copy and use it to make something that goes “boom.” This is still America, and in the America I know and love, we outlaw actions and deeds. We do not outlaw thoughts, or tools that have legitimate applications, but might—in an extreme case—be misused.

But some will ask, the carriers and ISPs are private businesses; don’t they have a right to police the traffic on their networks? They do, but only in a very limited sense. They do business with the help of government and in the public interest, in the form of franchise agreements and rights-of-way across (and under) public and private land, and by use of the radio spectrum. In exchange for this, we must require a certain level of hands-off behavior and demand that they make their networks available to all comers.


That’s what Net neutrality ought to be about: ensuring equal access to the network, without compromising the network’s benefit to the widest possible number of users.

Indeed. Bolded areas are of particularly strong agreement.

We, the people, decide what to use the Internet for, not carriers and ISPs.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
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We don't do it by restricting carriers and ISPs. We do it by choosing which carrier or ISP to patronize.

When all carriers do it and when only one or two carriers are available in your area, you do not have a choice.
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Fuck net neutrality.

I don't see a broken cut-off internet, do you?

Which ISP is currently prioritizing based on where the traffic is going? Which application other than bittorrent has an ISP toyed with?
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
Fuck net neutrality.

I don't see a broken cut-off internet, do you?

Which ISP is currently prioritizing based on where the traffic is going? Which application other than bittorrent has an ISP toyed with?

Since when are we only in the business of reacting to undesired events, instead of preventing them?
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
You already have a California congresswoman calling for Craigslist to remove their adult section. The next step after net neutrality is for the government to decide what is "acceptable" content.

The FCC was originally created to ensure that competing stations were not using the same frequency. They had good intentions. Now the FCC regulates not only frequencies but the content that goes on those frequencies. That is bad.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Since when are we only in the business of reacting to undesired events, instead of preventing them?

You might have a gene that predisposes you to violent crime. Should you be locked up in prison for that crime (which you have not committed yet but might)?

What about a genetic predisposition to being an alcoholic? Should they not be allowed to obtain drivers licenses because they have a higher DUI rate?

It is simply not the job of the government to decide what direction business should take.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
You already have a California congresswoman calling for Craigslist to remove their adult section. The next step after net neutrality is for the government to decide what is "acceptable" content.

The FCC was originally created to ensure that competing stations were not using the same frequency. They had good intentions. Now the FCC regulates not only frequencies but the content that goes on those frequencies. That is bad.

The goal of net neutrality should be (and is, from how the FCC's approaching it) to prevent ISPs from deciding what's "acceptable" and what isn't.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
The goal of net neutrality should be (and is, from how the FCC's approaching it) to prevent ISPs from deciding what's "acceptable" and what isn't.

Incorrect.
The goal of net neutrality is to regulate network traffic which opens the door to the government regulating content.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
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Net neutrality gets in the way of ISPs becoming more than ISPs. Everyone knows this.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
Fuck net neutrality.

I don't see a broken cut-off internet, do you?

Which ISP is currently prioritizing based on where the traffic is going? Which application other than bittorrent has an ISP toyed with?

Net Neutrality is simply a way of making sure that the internet keeps working the way it has been working until now. Operators don't want to be in the low-margin dumb pipe business - they would much rather be the high-margin, value-added gatekeeper business, much like cable networks or the wireless networks of a few years ago.

Now ask yourself, which platform drives more innovation? Which provides more value to users? Which platform enables more opportunity for growth and business? Which platform facilitates better flow of information?

If you answered "The Internet" to any of the above, tell me why we should sacrifice all of the above so a handful of companies can increase their profits (after all, they're not losing money now).
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Net Neutrality is simply a way of making sure that the internet keeps working the way it has been working until now.

That is the funniest thing I have read in a while.

"We need new laws to ensure that something that has worked for 2 decades continues to work" LOL.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Fuck net neutrality.

I don't see a broken cut-off internet, do you?

Which ISP is currently prioritizing based on where the traffic is going? Which application other than bittorrent has an ISP toyed with?

All carriers who use MPLS on their backbone (which is pretty much all of them) prioritizes packets based on data, voice, VPN, video, etc.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Supporting Net Neutrality is a step backwards to the stone age of The Internet. Best effort everywhere, crackly voice, crappy latency, choppy video, etc. Not the smooth experience necessary for all the different applications, which not surprisingly, have different delivery tolerances. Allowing traffic shaping and QoS ensures ALL applications perform their best. Net Neutrality wants to prevent all that and essentially stop and even retard the advancement of technology and The Internet.

Providers don't care where your traffic is going. They only care about providing the best network possible for voice, video and data applications.
 
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zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
Supporting Net Neutrality is a step backwards to the stone age of The Internet. Best effort everywhere, crackly voice, crappy latency, choppy video, etc. Not the smooth experience necessary for all the different applications, which not surprisingly, have different delivery tolerances. Allowing traffic shaping and QoS ensures ALL applications perform their best. Net Neutrality wants to prevent all that and essentially stop and even retard the advancement of technology and The Internet.

Providers don't care where your traffic is going. They only care about providing the best network possible for voice, video and data applications.

Spoken like an ISP industry lobbyist.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Why should they be permitted to throttle bittorrent? Because they're assuming it's being used for illegal purposes?

It's because the protocol consumes much more resources than any other protocol there is. It's like a virus. Best practice is to simply lowqueue it in the scavenger class of traffic.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
You might have a gene that predisposes you to violent crime. Should you be locked up in prison for that crime (which you have not committed yet but might)?

No.

What about a genetic predisposition to being an alcoholic? Should they not be allowed to obtain drivers licenses because they have a higher DUI rate?

No.

It is simply not the job of the government to decide what direction business should take.

No, that is not the government's job. That job belongs to consumers; consumers who do not have enough choices to effectively wield the one weapon they have--their wallets. In many areas ISP choice is very limited at best and non-existent at worst. You can list dial-up and satellite as choices, as you have in other threads, but those aren't really choices. Changing/restricting your desired or necessary usage of the Internet simply to make more ISPs available basically gives ISPs more power over the consumer than they are entitled to.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
From TFA:

This is still America, and in the America I know and love, we outlaw actions and deeds. We do not outlaw thoughts

Sounds like the author of that is not living in the same reality that the rest of us are.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Why should they be permitted to throttle bittorrent? Because they're assuming it's being used for illegal purposes?

99% of Bittorrent traffic is for ILLEGAL DOWNLOADS.
Bittorrent accounts for 35% of all internet traffic.
1% of the users use Bittorrent.

See the problem?

No one is assuming anything.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
It's because the protocol consumes much more resources than any other protocol there is. It's like a virus. Best practice is to simply lowqueue it in the scavenger class of traffic.

Yes, I'm aware of bittorrent's demands as a protocol, but that's not the point. The point is that ISPs should be improving their networks to support/cater to the applications and protocols that consumers are using a lot of... and bittorrent is one of them.

They shouldn't be whining to the government that they need to restrict certain types of traffic because consumer demand is changing faster than they can add bandwidth or reduce latency.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
The point is that ISPs should be improving their networks to support/cater to the applications and protocols that consumers are using a lot of... and bittorrent is one of them.

1% accounting for 35% of traffic 99% of which is illegal.

Ya, the networks need to support/cater to the protocols the "consumer" is using.
Right...
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
So you want to allow Virus's and Worms equal access to your computer just for the sake of a little speed.

Try paying for more speed then.

My main complaint is with advertising. They use this saying that goes something like this "Up to 50 times faster than Dial-up!". Well you will be lucky if you can get 5 times faster than dial-up!