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another school shooting

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alien42 said:
he was a teacher, that's the entire point here.

no one has said that adults can't kill people with handguns.
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He wasn't claiming that people said that. He's saying that, if the goal is to reduce gun fatalities then handguns would be the vastly more effective target.
because the AR-15 is far more deadly than all other guns. as for the age issue, no one can justify a kid being able to buy a weapon that can kill before being able to buy a lottery ticket or alcohol.
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Are you joking here? The AR-15 is less than middle of the road compared to all other guns. It fires a tiny bullet that is DESIGNED to limit collateral damage (doesn't penetrate walls or targets effectively) and is quite low on the ballistics scale. As for a weapon that can kill, are you going to put a qualifier on that or are you saying that someone under the age of 18 shouldn't be able to buy a knife or a bow?
no one is suggesting that, so why are you?
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TONS of people are suggesting that. Maybe not in these forums (at least they're not typing it out on record), but it doesn't take much looking online to see there are many people on the left who would love a gun ban.
where are you getting such silly ideas? when a cop shoots an innocent person, no one suggests that all cops should have their guns taken away.
schools have nothing to do with military bases.
now, do you have any actual valid points to make about assault weapons and arming teachers?
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He's pointing out the cries of the left to ban/restrict guns (the wrong guns) every time there's a shooting, as if it wasn't illegal enough already.
If my kids were huddled in a corner of a classroom with a teacher trying to hold the door shut against an unopposed shooter, it would be INSANE to say to yourself "well, at least the teacher doesn't have a gun, he can just use his body as a shield" or "the cops will be here any hour now!" Of course, they may wait outside until the coast is clear.
Perhaps you could go ahead and define 'assault weapon' while you're at it, I notice you didn't say 'assault rifle'.
Just because you don't want to understand his points doesn't make them less valid.
 
HomerJS said:
The issue is semi-auto. More efficient at killing numerous people in a short time. WV handgun was semi-auto.

BTW - The full time armed police force on campus didn't help them
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So, just to be clear, you're saying that a ban/restriction on semi-auto firearms would be a place to start? That encompasses virtually every handgun, and most rifles (I'm not saying you didn't know that, but you may be surprised at the number of people who don't).
 
The_Maestro said:
He wasn't claiming that people said that. He's saying that, if the goal is to reduce gun fatalities then handguns would be the vastly more effective target.

Are you joking here? The AR-15 is less than middle of the road compared to all other guns. It fires a tiny bullet that is DESIGNED to limit collateral damage (doesn't penetrate walls or targets effectively) and is quite low on the ballistics scale. As for a weapon that can kill, are you going to put a qualifier on that or are you saying that someone under the age of 18 shouldn't be able to buy a knife or a bow?
Click to expand...

What an AR-15 Can Do to the Human Body

"All guns can kill, but they do not kill equally.

Compare the damage an AR-15 and a 9mm handgun can do to the human body: “One looks like a grenade went off in there,” says Peter Rhee, a trauma surgeon at the University of Arizona. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”

...

"The bullet from an AR-15 does an entirely different kind of violence to the human body. It’s relatively small, but it leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. It has so much energy that it can disintegrate three inches of leg bone. “It would just turn it to dust,” says Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. If it hits the liver, “the liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor.” And the exit wound can be a nasty, jagged hole the size of an orange.

These high-velocity bullets can damage flesh inches away from their path, either because they fragment or because they cause something called cavitation. When you trail your fingers through water, the water ripples and curls. When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissues ripples as well—but much more violently. The bullet from an AR-15 might miss the femoral artery in the leg, but cavitation may burst the artery anyway, causing death by blood loss. A swath of stretched and torn tissue around the wound may die. That’s why, says Rhee, a handgun wound might require only one surgery but an AR-15 bullet wound might require three to ten."

https://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/

The Difference Between AR-15 and Normal Gunshot Wounds
An emergency room physician explains why "assault rifle" wounds are much harder to treat than shots from a pistol.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/the-difference-between-ar-15-and-normal-gunshot-wounds/

 
jackstar7 said:
Tag! You're it!

Great to see you back, LK.
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This is getting really bad for the TrumpTards... How much more pathetic can that one get. So many tag ins so little time... These kind of people are more than likely mentally ill and are the exact people who should not be allowed to own guns...
 
Didn’t want to start a new thread for this but another near mass tragedy when a 13 year old seventh grader killed himself in a school bathroom instead of acting on his plan to kill as many of his peers as possible.

Didn’t see this one mentioned anywhere on the big news networks.

https://www.ohio.com/akron/news/loc...self-at-jackson-middle-school-ruled-a-suicide

JACKSON TWP.: Keith Simons limped onto a school bus Feb. 20 with a rifle no one noticed and a secret nobody apparently knew.

Since Valentine’s Day — when a former student returned to his Florida high school with an assault-style rifle and killed 17 students, teachers and staff — the 13-year-old Jackson Memorial Middle School student had been writing a school “attack” plan of his own.

“When they interview my parents and ask how they didn’t see the signs, they should know it’s not them, it’s me and it’s because of how I see the world,” Keith wrote in an eight-point plan he kept on his mobile phone. “I’d hurt and destroy something bigger but my school’s an easy target.”

Nine days after Keith shot himself in a school bathroom, Jackson Township police Thursday called a news conference to confirm what many feared: Keith not only intended to take his own life Feb. 20, but he also planned to kill many others.

Chief Mark Brink shared chilling excerpts from Keith’s school shooting plan, which showed Keith had been inspired by the 1999 Columbine High School shooters in Littleton, Colo., and hoped his shooting at Jackson would inspire others after his death.
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Victorian Gray said:
What an AR-15 Can Do to the Human Body

"All guns can kill, but they do not kill equally.

Compare the damage an AR-15 and a 9mm handgun can do to the human body: “One looks like a grenade went off in there,” says Peter Rhee, a trauma surgeon at the University of Arizona. “The other looks like a bad knife cut.”
Click to expand...

Perhaps Dr. Rhee should educate himself before spreading his 'knowledge'. There's nothing special about an AR-15 at all, what he's seeing is the difference between a hollowpoint (which is designed to flair out on impact to quickly kill an animal) and a full metal jacket which will leave a roughly bullet-sized hole and usually exit the target (which makes them dangerous to things behind the target). In fact, the .223 round is TINY for a rifle (at 5.56mm, it's less than 2/3 the size of the 9mm bullet). A 9mm handgun round contains about 400-500 ft/lbs at the muzzle, an AR-15 is about 850-1350 ft/lbs. The increase is due to barrel length (directing more of the explosion) and powder load.
To put it in perspective, some common hunting rifles:
270 Winchester --3775 ft/lbs = ~3.43X more power than AR15
30-06 --2920 ft/lbs = ~2.65X more power than AR15
300 Weatherby Magnum --4074 ft/lbs = ~3.7X more power than AR15
8mm Remington Magnum --3734 = ~3.39X more power than AR15
Google 'hollow point 9mm wound' and tell me if it looks like a bad knife cut.
...
"The bullet from an AR-15 does an entirely different kind of violence to the human body. It’s relatively small, but it leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. It has so much energy that it can disintegrate three inches of leg bone. “It would just turn it to dust,” says Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. If it hits the liver, “the liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor.” And the exit wound can be a nasty, jagged hole the size of an orange.
Click to expand...
As previously explained, this is all sensational nonsense. While an AR wound can result in wounds like that, it's more a function of the bullet type than any special quality of the low powered rifle.
These high-velocity bullets can damage flesh inches away from their path, either because they fragment or because they cause something called cavitation. When you trail your fingers through water, the water ripples and curls. When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissues ripples as well—but much more violently. The bullet from an AR-15 might miss the femoral artery in the leg, but cavitation may burst the artery anyway, causing death by blood loss. A swath of stretched and torn tissue around the wound may die. That’s why, says Rhee, a handgun wound might require only one surgery but an AR-15 bullet wound might require three to ten."

https://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/
Click to expand...
The Difference Between AR-15 and Normal Gunshot Wounds
An emergency room physician explains why "assault rifle" wounds are much harder to treat than shots from a pistol.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/the-difference-between-ar-15-and-normal-gunshot-wounds/
Click to expand...
Cavitation is a result of gunshot wounds, but as has been pointed out already, whatever damage is caused by an AR15 is NOTHING compared to what a common hunting rifle would cause with the same type of bullet (FMJ or JHP). In fact, instead of just saying 'handgun' all the time, maybe be more specific. A 44 magnum PISTOL has similar muzzle energy as an AR, but with a bullet 2X the size. A 50AE or SW500 pistol makes an AR look like a pellet gun.

Last point, unless these doctors are in the military, they've never worked on an "assault rifle" wound. An AR15 is NOT AN ASSAULT RIFLE.
Almost your entire post is factually incorrect.
 
MomentsofSanity said:
Didn’t want to start a new thread for this but another near mass tragedy when a 13 year old seventh grader killed himself in a school bathroom instead of acting on his plan to kill as many of his peers as possible.

Didn’t see this one mentioned anywhere on the big news networks.

https://www.ohio.com/akron/news/loc...self-at-jackson-middle-school-ruled-a-suicide
Click to expand...
I'm glad you posted that story as I saw it late last night but opted not to follow up on it.
The_Maestro said:
Last point, unless these doctors are in the military, they've never worked on an "assault rifle" wound. An AR15 is NOT AN ASSAULT RIFLE.
Almost your entire post is factually incorrect.
Click to expand...
The AR-15 is legally classified as a machine gun in 27 CFR 479.11 § 2.1.6 and uses the exact same round as the m16/m4 when chambered in 5.56 nato.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download
 
momeNt said:
So he is over 21, and it was a handgun.

Also arguably the most infamous school shooter, Virginia tech, was over 21, and also armed with a handgun.

Why the laser focus on AR-15 and the age of 21 then?

Is the only real solution here just no more guns?

Well what happens when a police officer discharges his weapon in a school? ABSOLUTELY no more guns?

What happens when there is a military base shooting - no we really mean it, no more guns.
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Because 500 fucking people were injured in Las Vegas.

Not to be a dick but did you honestly forget about that already? It seems a LOT of people on this forum have short term memory.
 
Interesting article about yet another school shooting that failed. This kid had obsessed about "beating" Adam Lanza. Found this part interesting.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-south-carolina-school-shooter-20180303-story.html

Jesse acknowledged in an interview with investigators that he'd shot far fewer kids than he'd intended. The problem, he explained, was the weapon. He'd only had access to the .40 caliber pistol his father kept in a dresser drawer. It had jammed on the playground, just 12 seconds after he first pulled the trigger.

The weapon Jesse really wanted, the one he'd tried desperately to get, was, the teenager believed, locked in his father's gun safe: the Ruger Mini-14, a semiautomatic rifle much like the gun that, 17 months later, was fired again and again at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High, during one of the deadliest school shootings in American history.
Click to expand...
 
The_Maestro said:
Perhaps Dr. Rhee should educate himself before spreading his 'knowledge'. There's nothing special about an AR-15 at all, what he's seeing is the difference between a hollowpoint (which is designed to flair out on impact to quickly kill an animal) and a full metal jacket which will leave a roughly bullet-sized hole and usually exit the target (which makes them dangerous to things behind the target).
Click to expand...

Not all bullets of same construction type are equal. Some FMJs are better than others. .223 can yaw significantly or even fragment in FMJ form.

Google 'hollow point 9mm wound' and tell me if it looks like a bad knife cut.
Click to expand...

And it can only dump the amount of energy that it had once it impacted. But.223 can have 3x as much, yet somehow that's not adequate even as you tell this person to google how bad a 9mm HP wound is....

As previously explained, this is all sensational nonsense. While an AR wound can result in wounds like that, it's more a function of the bullet type than any special quality of the low powered rifle.
Click to expand...
Cavitation is a result of gunshot wounds, but as has been pointed out already, whatever damage is caused by an AR15 is NOTHING compared to what a common hunting rifle would cause with the same type of bullet (FMJ or JHP). In fact, instead of just saying 'handgun' all the time, maybe be more specific. A 44 magnum PISTOL has similar muzzle energy as an AR, but with a bullet 2X the size. A 50AE or SW500 pistol makes an AR look like a pellet gun.
Click to expand...

There are advantages to the smaller calibers that make them more optimal. Notice how militiaries around the world are using smaller calibers? So it's inane how the argument turns to that they could be using 30-06 etc.

Edit: More of a function of the cartridge than the caliber per se. The 6.8 SPC has a little more energy while not sacrificing ammo capacity or raising recoil much. The 300 BLK has similar energy but fits easier in smaller barrels, has good capacity, and adequate power in close range. Funny how if civilian guns are chambered for these, it's not an "assault rifle" (as if that's some distinction that determines whether civilians should have it or not), but the M16 is.

Edit: Also, I had to laugh at the "bullet 2x the size". The .223 goes in like a grenade as you just said the energies are similar. The .44 magnum has momentum carrying it through to penetrate further, but .223 has a bigger area of disruption/damage, which increases the chance of a fatal wound. Regardless, not exactly a big deal it's bigger as you seem to make it out to be.

An AR15 is NOT AN ASSAULT RIFLE.
.
Click to expand...

This has always been a stupid point. It's a distinction without a difference, and yet you think you're so clever.
 
Last edited:
The_Maestro said:
Perhaps Dr. Rhee should educate himself before spreading his 'knowledge'. There's nothing special about an AR-15 at all, what he's seeing is the difference between a hollowpoint (which is designed to flair out on impact to quickly kill an animal) and a full metal jacket which will leave a roughly bullet-sized hole and usually exit the target (which makes them dangerous to things behind the target). In fact, the .223 round is TINY for a rifle (at 5.56mm, it's less than 2/3 the size of the 9mm bullet). A 9mm handgun round contains about 400-500 ft/lbs at the muzzle, an AR-15 is about 850-1350 ft/lbs. The increase is due to barrel length (directing more of the explosion) and powder load.
To put it in perspective, some common hunting rifles:
270 Winchester --3775 ft/lbs = ~3.43X more power than AR15
30-06 --2920 ft/lbs = ~2.65X more power than AR15
300 Weatherby Magnum --4074 ft/lbs = ~3.7X more power than AR15
8mm Remington Magnum --3734 = ~3.39X more power than AR15
Google 'hollow point 9mm wound' and tell me if it looks like a bad knife cut.
...

As previously explained, this is all sensational nonsense. While an AR wound can result in wounds like that, it's more a function of the bullet type than any special quality of the low powered rifle.

Cavitation is a result of gunshot wounds, but as has been pointed out already, whatever damage is caused by an AR15 is NOTHING compared to what a common hunting rifle would cause with the same type of bullet (FMJ or JHP). In fact, instead of just saying 'handgun' all the time, maybe be more specific. A 44 magnum PISTOL has similar muzzle energy as an AR, but with a bullet 2X the size. A 50AE or SW500 pistol makes an AR look like a pellet gun.

Last point, unless these doctors are in the military, they've never worked on an "assault rifle" wound. An AR15 is NOT AN ASSAULT RIFLE.
Almost your entire post is factually incorrect.
Click to expand...

AR-15 firing 5.56x45mm NATO has roughly 1800J per round

Winchester 270 has roughly 3600J or twice as much not 3 or more time.

What type of rounds were you assuming for the AR? It appears you were min - maxing to make a larger point.

Also I’m curious, is there a commonly sold rifle that has a 30 round magazine firing Winchester 270?
 
Paratus said:
AR-15 firing 5.56x45mm NATO has roughly 1800J per round

Winchester 270 has roughly 3600J or twice as much not 3 or more time.

What type of rounds were you assuming for the AR? It appears you were min - maxing to make a larger point.

Also I’m curious, is there a commonly sold rifle that has a 30 round magazine firing Winchester 270?
Click to expand...

He's trying to suggest only comblock fodder FMJs are available for the AR-15. It's BS. There are varmint, HP, etc. rounds for the common .223 Remington.
 
Paratus said:
AR-15 firing 5.56x45mm NATO has roughly 1800J per round

Winchester 270 has roughly 3600J or twice as much not 3 or more time.

What type of rounds were you assuming for the AR? It appears you were min - maxing to make a larger point.

Also I’m curious, is there a commonly sold rifle that has a 30 round magazine firing Winchester 270?
Click to expand...

He's just another anti science gun freak idiot trying to minimize the effectiveness of modern military rifles & the bullets they fire. Never mind that research & development by well funded military scientists around the world converged into the same range of cartridge types- Nato 5.56x45, Russian 5.45x39 & Chinese 5.8x42.

Fucking eggheads don't know anything according to our newest troll.
 
Maxima1 said:
He's trying to suggest only comblock fodder FMJs are available for the AR-15. It's BS. There are varmint, HP, etc. rounds for the common .223 Remington.
Click to expand...
Lest we forget the ease with which one can drop on a new caliber just by pushing two pins.
 
Maxima1 said:
He's trying to suggest only comblock fodder FMJs are available for the AR-15. It's BS. There are varmint, HP, etc. rounds for the common .223 Remington.
Click to expand...

The vast majority of 5.56 ammo sold is FMJ. Despite that, yaw, tumbling & fragmentation on impact are a feature, not a bug & a cheat on the Geneva Conventions about dum-dums & hollow points. It's all very scientific. The objective is for the bullet to expend all its energy into the target rather than having wasted energy after passing through.
 
Jhhnn said:
The vast majority of 5.56 ammo sold is FMJ. Despite that, yaw, tumbling & fragmentation on impact are a feature, not a bug & a cheat on the Geneva Conventions about dum-dums & hollow points. It's all very scientific. The objective is for the bullet to expend all its energy into the target rather than having wasted energy after passing through.
Click to expand...

I'm referring to the .223 Remington cartridge which is the civilian version of the 5.56 NATO. Rifles chambered in 5.56 NATO can also use .223 Remington. Varmint rounds, etc. would be nasty! And I know about yawing etc.. I already mentioned that previously right above your post.
 
The_Maestro said:
Are you joking here? The AR-15 is less than middle of the road compared to all other guns.
Click to expand...

Then you should have no problems banning it, and others similar to it. No matter how effective you believe the gun is, there is no doubt that it is fetishized by the as the weapon of choice for would be mass murderers.

The_Maestro said:
So, just to be clear, you're saying that a ban/restriction on semi-auto firearms would be a place to start? That encompasses virtually every handgun, and most rifles (I'm not saying you didn't know that, but you may be surprised at the number of people who don't).
Click to expand...

Personally, I would advocate a ban on anything other than bolt-action, breach load, or single action revolvers, and that would include police (with a exception for specialty squads intended to deal with bigger issues.)
 
Jhhnn said:
No military firepower freak would use anything but military style ammo-

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/federal-m-vs-xm-556-xm193-vs-xm855/
Click to expand...

Funny, but they do like to use a variety of ammo and debate constantly over which is the best. Hornady even markets a zombie round. lol The Hornady TAP (LE/self defense use) is basically a rebranded V-Max (varmint round). And even the lighter soft points or other expanding designs will still get around 10 " of penetration, and heavy-for-caliber a little more. Some of those are in 5.56 as well, though as I said you can use .223 Remington ammo as well (slighter lower pressure), so bigger selection.
 
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