Another installment of "I'll just leave this here" by yours truly.

[Fear No Evil]

Ultimately religion and science run into the same problem. They both can't explain how things came to be. Religion uses a 'God', science says it was a 'Big Bang'. Neither can explain tell us what was going on at creation -1 second. There is certainly a lot more 'faith' in science than I think people would like to believe.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Ultimately religion and science run into the same problem. They both can't explain how things came to be.

Balderdash. The current state of the universe came to be from the state of the universe one attosecond prior.

Religion uses a 'God', science says it was a 'Big Bang'. Neither can explain tell us what was going on at creation -1 second.

WHAT "creation"? You can't expect scientists to explain something that you can't demonstrate to exist in the first place.

There is certainly a lot more 'faith' in science than I think people would like to believe.

That's just what people who are ignorant about science say.

 

[AstroManLuca]

 

[Elias824]

What happened at big bang -1? Well since time didn't exist so its kind of difficult to determine.

You guys should try to get Christians to apply "faith" to anything else other then religion and see how well it works. Just give me all of your money and have faith that good things will happen!

 

[AstroManLuca]

What happened at big bang -1? Well since time didn't exist so its kind of difficult to determine.

You guys should try to get Christians to apply "faith" to anything else other then religion and see how well it works. Just give me all of your money and have faith that good things will happen!

That already happens with audiophiles.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/audioramblings1.htm

It's one thing to spend $10,000 on speaker wire. It's another to tape a plastic baggie of polished rocks to your cables and actually believe that it's improving your audio quality. Or to buy a digital clock with a sticker on it for $200 because some snake-oil salesmen used a bunch of big words in his description.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Ultimately religion and science run into the same problem. They both can't explain how things came to be. Religion uses a 'God', science says it was a 'Big Bang'. Neither can explain tell us what was going on at creation -1 second. There is certainly a lot more 'faith' in science than I think people would like to believe.

No reputable scientist will tell you that the Big Bang is anything more than a THEORY. Scientists often speculate and discuss theories as to what was going on prior to the Big Bang. There's less blind faith involved in science than you like to believe. And you are correct, no THEORY today can explain initial beginning of life as we know it -1

The main difference I see is that Religion claims to have all the answers, Science works on facts derived from the Scientific Method and theories.

 

[Azraele]

hey both can't explain how things came to be. Religion uses a 'God', science says it was a 'Big Bang'.

Are there any other scientific theories about creation other than big bang? Or is big bang all they've come up with? Just curious.

 

[MotF Bane]

Cmon...lets be real. Christianity had nothing to do with the "dark ages". The collapse of the Roman Empire happened and it was actually all of the monasteries and educated men of the church who could read and write that actually preserved all the scientific knowledge that would have been lost otherwise. That graph makes no mention of Arab/Muslim, Indian and Chinese scientific accomplishments during these so called dark ages.

I enjoy a good bashing thread where applicable but that graph is just a bunch of horseshit and trolling.

History is your friend. Try it.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Are there any other scientific theories about creation other than big bang? Or is big bang all they've come up with? Just curious.

WHAT "creation"????

The Big Bang is a mathematical model that is deduced from the observed convergence of past world lines belonging to all the objects in the universe. It does not describe a "creation." At best it describes one singularity, which could possibly describe an origin of our local patch of spacetime, but is certainly not to be construed as any creation of the universe in its totality.

 

[geno]

lol

Massive fail.

That's the point. I hope you don't think that pic was made in a serious manner by a Christian.

 

[NetWareHead]

The graph may not be complete, but your statement is just completely wrong.

Catholicism played a massive role in the Dark Ages. The collapse of the Holy Roman Empire did indeed play a part, but only because the Church was losing massive brownie points without the territorial control.

Here's a good wiki quote, regarding the Middle Ages. The last paragraph is a fun one.

You mean Roman Empire which fell in 476 thus precipitating the "dark ages". The Holy Roman Empire was disbanded in 1806 and had nothing to do with this.

The collapse of the Roman Empire was due to barbarian invasions and general mishandling of empire affairs. Christianity became the official religion of the empire, but did not contribute to its fall. If anything during the "dark ages" Church control of land and territory increased. At the time of Henry VIII's break with Catholic Church, the Church owned an estimated 1/3 of land in England (or some other absurdly huge amount). In France right before the revolution, Clergy and the Catholic church comprised a separate social class and almost another arm of the government.

I don't know what type or argument you are trying to make or even what you are rebutting about my argument. The Catholic Church was pretty much seen as the keeper of all knowledge and the only source of education. All of the scientific texts and other documents from the Roman era became illegible to the common people, who no longer spoke Latin. Only the clergy spoke Latin and maintained this information. Latin survived as the language of academia until even a few hundred years ago. My point is that there was really no dark age, only a dark age to the common people who did not speak Latin. And the fall of the Roman Empire did not affect Indian, Chinese or Muslim/Arabic scientific progress and innovation.

I don't know how the wikipedia article you quoted is related to what I said but it looks like you you misunderstood my argument.

 

[Fear No Evil]

WHAT "creation"????

The Big Bang is a mathematical model that is deduced from the observed convergence of past world lines belonging to all the objects in the universe. It does not describe a "creation." At best it describes one singularity, which could possibly describe an origin of our local patch of spacetime, but is certainly not to be construed as any creation of the universe in its totality.

Stop getting hung up on words. You KNOW what we mean. Of course 'creation' in the scientific sense means the point of the big bang or whatever word you want to use.

So we're just supposed to believe that a singularity existed for eternity and just magically happened to blow up for no apparent reason? Who or what created the singularity? How is it any more absurd to say a magical 'god' created it than to say 'it just existed and always has'. Both are stupid and don't explain jack shit about why or how we are here.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Stop getting hung up on words. You KNOW what we mean. Of course 'creation' in the scientific sense means the point of the big bang or whatever word you want to use.

So we're just supposed to believe that a singularity existed for eternity and just magically happened to blow up for no apparent reason? Who or what created the singularity? How is it any more absurd to say a magical 'god' created it than to say 'it just existed and always has'. Both are stupid and don't explain jack shit about why or how we are here.

Like I said: Science never claims to have all the answers, that's religion game.

 

[Binarycow]

I believe in God and consider myself a Christian. But I don't believe organized religion has everyone's interests at heart. My belief in God is a very personal one. Does God answer all of my prayers? No. Do I expect God to? No. God is a guide on my road in life. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Pamphlets are located on the way out. Thank you for stopping by.
Oh, and while I wish we had a flying car by now, I'd rather go with teleportation.

Amen.

 

[Binarycow]

Ultimately religion and science run into the same problem. They both can't explain how things came to be. Religion uses a 'God', science says it was a 'Big Bang'. Neither can explain tell us what was going on at creation -1 second. There is certainly a lot more 'faith' in science than I think people would like to believe.

Religion cannot explain it at -1 second; science cannot YET explain it at -1 second.

 

[Binarycow]

What happened at big bang -1? Well since time didn't exist so its kind of difficult to determine.

You guys should try to get Christians to apply "faith" to anything else other then religion and see how well it works. Just give me all of your money and have faith that good things will happen!

my guess is you will turn gay, grab the money and run, then come back again as a reborn christian a few years down the road? (like televangelists over the past decade)

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Stop getting hung up on words. You KNOW what we mean.

No, I don't. I can only take you at your word. SAY what you mean and we won't have this problem.

Of course 'creation' in the scientific sense means the point of the big bang or whatever word you want to use.

No, it most certainly doesn't.

So we're just supposed to believe that a singularity existed for eternity and just magically happened to blow up for no apparent reason?

No. For one, the Big Bang was not an explosion, so it did not "blow up." Secondly, it's meaningless to talk about time intervals for the Big Bang singularity.

Who or what created the singularity?

Give me a reason to believe it was created.

How is it any more absurd to say a magical 'god' created it than to say 'it just existed and always has'.

The latter doesn't fly in the face of the established regularities we observe in the universe.

Both are stupid and don't explain jack shit about why or how we are here.

Quite false, and demonstrative of the monumental scientific ignorance prevalent among the religious right.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Give me a reason to believe it was created.

Where did matter/energy come from then? Unicorn farts? It was either created, or it has existed forever. Neither of which make much sense. Science can't explain what happened at singularity -1. Best they can do is get to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction after it occured.

You even use the term 'our local patch of spacetime'. Implying that there are other patches of spacetime out there. If thats the case, then time certainly DOES pass, just perhaps not in 'our local patch of spacetime'. How do we know our local patch of spacetime wasn't created by some super-being from another patch?

Quite false, and demonstrative of the monumental scientific ignorance prevalent among the religious right.

I'm not a member of a church. I haven't been to a church regularly in probably nearly 30 years. I guess that makes me a member of the 'religious right' in your mind? What science did you use to make that conclusion? I'm not sure being a douchebag is proper application of the scientific method.

I'd say I would lean 98.44% in your direction on things regarding how things can be explained. But I am also open minded enough to realize that science can't explain everything and that some of what scientists believe is ultimately based on faith. Some of the greatest scientists in the world were quite religious as well. I suspect you wouldn't call them 'ignorant'.

 

[destrekor]

Where did matter/energy come from then? Unicorn farts? It was either created, or it has existed forever. Neither of which make much sense. Science can't explain what happened at singularity -1. Best they can do is get to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction after it occured.

You even use the term 'our local patch of spacetime'. Implying that there are other patches of spacetime out there. If thats the case, then time certainly DOES pass, just perhaps not in 'our local patch of spacetime'. How do we know our local patch of spacetime wasn't created by some super-being from another patch?




I'm not a member of a church. I haven't been to a church regularly in probably nearly 30 years. I guess that makes me a member of the 'religious right' in your mind? What science did you use to make that conclusion? I'm not sure being a douchebag is proper application of the scientific method.

I'd say I would lean 98.44% in your direction on things regarding how things can be explained. But I am also open minded enough to realize that science can't explain everything and that some of what scientists believe is ultimately based on faith. Some of the greatest scientists in the world were quite religious as well. I suspect you wouldn't call them 'ignorant'.

You're muddying the term Faith.
The way the religious practice faith is far different than everyday "faith."
You have faith the airplane pilot will ferry your ass somewhere and arrive without harm. Is this "faith"? I argue it's true faith, not the absurd levels of faith found in belief of divinity.

I personally would not object to a belief in God existing forever, but only in a personal god, nothing organized. Your personal beliefs, just grand, keep it going for however you want to approach the grind of life. Organized religion, filled with specifics and an oft-repeated history of conflict and violence, is just worthless to humanity at this point.

Scientific "faith" stops whenever a theory goes unsupported. Scientific truths and established theories can only exist when there exist repeated trials that result in conclusive evidence. This little tidbit escapes most people - theories are, for all intents and purposes, scientific fact.

Gravity is an oft-repeated example in this case. And for a reason: gravity, as we all know it, is easy to define, we have a mountain of knowledge on gravity. The scientific community, however, is still searching for the one piece of the puzzle that makes it all possible. The higgs-boson, by all accounts of scientists, is the particle that essentially equals mass, whereas other particles provide the means of the other 3 forces (electromagnetism, and the two "weak" forces). The final puzzle to bring everything together, and give a documented definition for mass and gravity, is something we have yet to discover - primarily because making it visible presumably takes a large amount of energy (from collision).

Is it "faith" that the scientific community presumes this particle exists, and base great knowledge around it? I argue no, as with better evidence, theories are adjusted or simply scrapped and replaced with more definable theories.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Where did matter/energy come from then? Unicorn farts?

There are no compelling reasons to believe that it "came from" anywhere.

It was either created, or it has existed forever. Neither of which make much sense.

Please do not project your ignorance on to others. There's nothing nonsensical about an unbounded past.

You even use the term 'our local patch of spacetime'. Implying that there are other patches of spacetime out there.

There may be. We simply do not know that ours is alone.

If thats the case, then time certainly DOES pass, just perhaps not in 'our local patch of spacetime'. How do we know our local patch of spacetime wasn't created by some super-being from another patch?

We don't. That isn't a basis upon which to believe anything you've claimed.

Some of the greatest scientists in the world were quite religious as well. I suspect you wouldn't call them 'ignorant'.

I certainly would. Most historical scientific "greats" were woefully ignorant of the depth of facts we've accumulated since their respective deaths.

 

[zinfamous]

Christians cost me my flying car. Fuckers.

This. that Greek dude had a steam engine some 1500 years before Watt "invented it." 🙁 :twisted:

 

[SSSnail]

http://www.wimp.com/hiddendimensions/

 

[TechAZ]

There are no compelling reasons to believe that it "came from" anywhere.


Please do not project your ignorance on to others. There's nothing nonsensical about an unbounded past.


There may be. We simply do not know that ours is alone.


We don't. That isn't a basis upon which to believe anything you've claimed.


I certainly would. Most historical scientific "greats" were woefully ignorant of the depth of facts we've accumulated since their respective deaths.

This is coming from an agnostic here....

YOU are the exact reason why Athiests get a bad rap. Know it all just beating off waiting for a religious thread on the internet. Using the authoratative debate style does not make you seem intelligent or convincing.

 

[Sea Moose]

http://www.wimp.com/hiddendimensions/

interesting theory