Another gun thread

[SparkyJJO]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Found it, the perp in Miami took 12 rounds before he does, took out 2 Agents and crippled 2 more.

Factor in how fat people are now, and you have a useless weapon

Hit him in the head with a 9mm hollowpoint or two and he's going down regardless of how fat he is

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Found it, the perp in Miami took 12 rounds before he does, took out 2 Agents and crippled 2 more.

Factor in how fat people are now, and you have a useless weapon

SC Trooper Coates was killed by a .22 derringer after putting 5 .357mags into the guy...some people can absorb a lot..

 

[FDF12389]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Found it, the perp in Miami took 12 rounds before he does, took out 2 Agents and crippled 2 more.

Factor in how fat people are now, and you have a useless weapon

At that point, with McNeill paralyzed and helpless on his back, Mireles fighting the effects of his avulsed forearm, Grogan unable to clearly locate his target without his glasses, and Manauzzi still unarmed after losing control of his revolver from the impact of the improvised felony stop, the mortally wounded Michael Platt made his daring bid for freedom.

The initial collision that forced the suspects off the road caused some unforeseen problems for the agents. Just prior to ramming the Monte Carlo, Manauzzi had pulled out his service revolver and placed it in his lap in anticipation of a shootout, but the force of the collision flung open his door and sent his weapon flying out of his lap. Hanlon also lost his .357 Magnum service revolver during the initial collision, though he was still able to fight with his Smith & Wesson Model 36 backup gun. The collision also knocked off Grogan's eye glasses, making it difficult for him to see.

Yep, extremely poor circumstances, with crappy 9mm and .380 rounds in a revolver, disoriented and under trained agents vs someone who served seven years in US special forces with a mini 14.

Great comparison chief, pretty sure I wont be making any moving traffic stops on a special forces veterans armed with assault weapons.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: FDF12389

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Found it, the perp in Miami took 12 rounds before he does, took out 2 Agents and crippled 2 more.

Factor in how fat people are now, and you have a useless weapon

At that point, with McNeill paralyzed and helpless on his back, Mireles fighting the effects of his avulsed forearm, Grogan unable to clearly locate his target without his glasses, and Manauzzi still unarmed after losing control of his revolver from the impact of the improvised felony stop, the mortally wounded Michael Platt made his daring bid for freedom.

The initial collision that forced the suspects off the road caused some unforeseen problems for the agents. Just prior to ramming the Monte Carlo, Manauzzi had pulled out his service revolver and placed it in his lap in anticipation of a shootout, but the force of the collision flung open his door and sent his weapon flying out of his lap. Hanlon also lost his .357 Magnum service revolver during the initial collision, though he was still able to fight with his Smith & Wesson Model 36 backup gun. The collision also knocked off Grogan's eye glasses, making it difficult for him to see.

Yep, extremely poor circumstances, with crappy 9mm and .380 rounds in a revolver, disoriented and under trained agents vs someone who served seven years in US special forces with a mini 14.

Great comparison chief, pretty sure I wont be making any moving traffic stops on a special forces veterans armed with assault weapons.

Hey watch your language. A Mini14 is a sporting rifle with a detachable magazine.

Besides back then I know they didnt have +p rounds and I think only ball ammo was allowed.

Like I said todays exotic 9mm ammo is more powerful than off the shelf 45 HP's in most spoting goods stores

 

[Pliablemoose]

The average US citizen has a fucking layer of blubber now, and we have a significant number of people with huge blubber layers nowdays.

We need bigger CT scanners, x ray machines, stretchers, beds, etc...

I think this is a hell of a rationale to argue for bigger handguns.

 

[misle]

I can believe Pliablemoose. But, I will say that if you buy quality hollow points, they make a huge difference. 9mm ball ammo is not going to drop an attacker with a center of mass hit (shot placement is always important). But, many modern 9mm JHP ammo has very similar ballistics to .45 ACP JHP.

I remember seeing ballistic jelly comparisons a while back on a gun site. I'll see if I can find it.

I'd also like to point out that the OP said the 9mm's main function would be the range and as a backup weapon in home defense, so this is getting pretty off topic.

 

[FDF12389]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: FDF12389

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Found it, the perp in Miami took 12 rounds before he does, took out 2 Agents and crippled 2 more.

Factor in how fat people are now, and you have a useless weapon

At that point, with McNeill paralyzed and helpless on his back, Mireles fighting the effects of his avulsed forearm, Grogan unable to clearly locate his target without his glasses, and Manauzzi still unarmed after losing control of his revolver from the impact of the improvised felony stop, the mortally wounded Michael Platt made his daring bid for freedom.

The initial collision that forced the suspects off the road caused some unforeseen problems for the agents. Just prior to ramming the Monte Carlo, Manauzzi had pulled out his service revolver and placed it in his lap in anticipation of a shootout, but the force of the collision flung open his door and sent his weapon flying out of his lap. Hanlon also lost his .357 Magnum service revolver during the initial collision, though he was still able to fight with his Smith & Wesson Model 36 backup gun. The collision also knocked off Grogan's eye glasses, making it difficult for him to see.

Yep, extremely poor circumstances, with crappy 9mm and .380 rounds in a revolver, disoriented and under trained agents vs someone who served seven years in US special forces with a mini 14.

Great comparison chief, pretty sure I wont be making any moving traffic stops on a special forces veterans armed with assault weapons.

Hey watch your language. A Mini14 is a sporting rifle with a detachable magazine.

Besides back then I know they didnt have +p rounds and I think only ball ammo was allowed.

Like I said todays exotic 9mm ammo is more powerful than off the shelf 45 HP's in most spoting goods stores

I apologize, but my point still stands, even if they had 40 or 45s the outcome would be the same, you cannot confidently fight a semi automatic .223 rifle with most hanguns from 30 yards away, esp when the rifle is being fired by a special forces trained individual who gets his kicks by killing people.

Pliablemoose:

Bottomline, you cannot "promise" me every 9mm GSW you treat comes from a perp with expensive equipment, in fact you have no idea. Secondly I am not arguing that there are better rounds available. I'm just saying that there are effective 9mm rounds and it is not a useless caliber. You can disagree and makeup and or reference all the situations you want, but 9mm kills. And finally this is a range gun, as stated in OP.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: FDF12389

9mm kills.

So does a subsonic 22.

 

[FDF12389]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: FDF12389

9mm kills.

So does a subsonic 22.

Which was my weapon of choice when I moved into a apartment while contracting out of town for six months.

Now care address how you know what kind of equipment and ammo your patients are shot with or do you want me to forget you said that for your sake?

 

[Zebo]

I believe Pliablemoose and his ER friends joking about 9mm too - but there are multiple factors at work here i think. Thugs shooting each other don't study ammo and use whatever JHP is sold at walmart/sportsstore- underpowered stuff at least 35% less power than high load internet stuff or specialty retailers sell. Second to energy is cross sectional dimensions of 45ACP vs. 9mm creating bigger cavity thus more tissue damage. I would rather be shot with smaller bullet too - even the powerful 357sig than 45ACP for this reason. Until bullets start fragmenting (impossible below 2300 ft/sec which excludes all pistol rounds) the key is how far in (ft/lbs) and how big a hole can it make.

 

[voodoochylde]

I have an XD 4" chambered in .40 S&W. Love it. I've never shot a Glock or an M&P. The Glock (from handling in the gun shop) does NOT fit my hand near as well as the XD.

I have shot my boss' taurus 9mm full-size. It was OK but waaaaay to big for CCW. He also has a Kimber CDP ultracarry .45 and, while fun, was too expensive and I didn't like the trigger.

I like my XD! Have about 2000 rounds through it with ONE failure-to-eject on a Federal 180 grain Hydra-shok (not HST). I'm more than happy with it!

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: FDF12389

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: FDF12389

9mm kills.

So does a subsonic 22.

Which was my weapon of choice when I moved into a apartment while contracting out of town for six months.

Now care address how you know what kind of equipment and ammo your patients are shot with or do you want me to forget you said that for your sake?

You can do whatever the fuck you want, fact remains that the 9mm GSW patients survive at a much higher rate. The police and the ER docs always ask the caliber of the weapon used as it relates relatively specifically to the amount of damage done, they don't collect data on the specific rounds used.

If you want to believe you have an effective handgun round, I suggest you look at some ballistic data to prove your point, all I have is nearly 40 years of firearms experience, having a CCW permit for nearly a decade, growing up in the Dakotas and shooting everything that moved with every caliber of gun we had access to at the time from a 22 short to a .458 Winchester Magnum, going to state with our school's rifle club, patching up homies daily and owning so many guns that I don't even tell people how many because they're such politically correct asshats...

I'll stand by my statement that the 9mm ain't shit compared to most modern handgun rounds, it's been glorified by rap music and it's the caliber to own if you believe the hype. Enjoy your pussy 9mm POS... Go bust a cap dude, we'll be there to patch em up for another day on the wild streets. Or perhaps you could read an article about how many rounds of a given handgun caliber it takes to incapacitate a goat. The Army spent a shitload of money and time doing exactly that.

You're too goddamn busy defending the 9mm to realize we're on the same side. After I started working trauma, I sold my 9mm almost exactly a month after a guy and his GF walked into my ER with multiple 9mm rounds in their freaking necks and backs.

Gangster re-assembler, and man whore extraordinaire, the moose...

I'm done with this thread and you.