NL5
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Originally posted by: Howard
What, 5th gear?Originally posted by: Rubycon
Think overdrive.
I don't remember the exact methodology, but I explained part of it above. There is a reason why, and I am tool lazy to look for the answer. 100 watts is 100 watts, but actual output and "rated power" are two different animals all together. C'mon over. Bring ANY 100-300 Watt SS Guitar amp, and I'll put my 18 watter up against it. That little 18 watter will make you beg for earplugs, and even they won't be enough.
Aren't you an engineer? You should be able to explain why. Although, I think you were the guy that said digital eq's do no damage to the audio. My ears, and my oscilloscope say they do.........
I was going to post a whole lot of bullshit, but I'll just ask you this: what makes you think the driver in your tube "amp" (I wonder how they came up with that term) is not especially sensitive?
What kind of testing did you do with your oscilloscope, and with what EQ?
What kind of testing did you do with your oscilloscope, and with what EQ?
NL5
Diamond Member
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I don't even understand the question.
Amp is short for amplifier. That I do know.
Please post as much "bullshit" as you want. I really would like to hear what you have to say. I am no electrical engineer, but 25+ years of experience with guitar amps has taught me a bit of real world stuff, and I have played on or used literally hundreds of different guitar amps, and have 10 of them sitting here right now. Like I said two other times, I do know part of it is the way in which a tube amp will output the same wattage into a 4/8/16 ohm load. SS will not.
Please do explain why I am wrong.
I am under the impression that a watt r.m.s. is a watt r.m.s. , creative marketing notwithstanding.
Some manufacturers use IEC ratings, or PEAK watts. which is misleading.
Some amps only allow input sensitivity to be adjusted, some have an output level control. Both adjust Relative volume, just that each does it from a different point of reference to the circuit.
When you are measuring the output of an amp, the output voltage is what we are talking about, not the relative SPL from the cabinet.
Unless you are comparing the same voltage output from an amp, you can be deceived by knob settings... to wit... "this one goes to 11"..... "why don't you just make that one say 10, then?"...." Then it wouldn't be 11"
Testing methodology FTW.
NL5
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Like I said to Howard, I am NOT an electrical engineer, but I have seen the reasons explained before, but I don't remember. I believe, and I could be wrong, that it had something to do with the way a tube amp "see's" a load, and that the output was different someway - I don't remember the exact terminology. It seems as though they could far surpass the rated output when pushed passed "normal operating" levels or something. I am really hoping Howard can explain why or why not.......
I use digital and tube amps as well as hybrids. As mentioned, they all have their place. If I wanted to kill a bunch of people in a live situation or if I wanted to kill a neighbor 10 blocks away, I would use my all tube rack system which consists of a tubeman and a peavey classic poweramp. It goes to 11 and kills everyone including their shadows and their afterlife. If I wanted to just stay quiet and practice my killing skills, I would practice through the tubeman going into my recording system and play through my headphones or my studio monitors. The only time I use my digital amp (Roland Cube) is if I wanted to pretend killing a few people in the same room. It doesn't get very loud and definitely won't kill even if you crank it. Anyway guitar noobs, this debate would probably continue with a bunch of dumb responses but there's my 2 cents.
I apologize for my confusion of the terminology. I was taking your use of "amp" to mean combo amp.
Back to the discussion: tube amps can output more power (how much "more" depends on the individual amp) than their nominal max would indicate, because the sound is still tolerable. With SS amps, the output waveform will clip when you hit max power, and it sounds disgusting. I am not sure that this would account for, say, (100-18) W worth of power, but it is useful to note that if you even get 30W out of the 18W amp, you're suddenly only 5dB down compared to the 100W amp.
Have you measured the power delivered by the tube amp while playing at max volume?
EDIT: Forgot to address this earlier: Yes, the nominal max output of an SS amp is only useful when the load impedance is given. If an SS amp is rated at 100W at 8 ohms but is powering a 16 ohm driver, there goes a significant fraction of the power.
Back to the discussion: tube amps can output more power (how much "more" depends on the individual amp) than their nominal max would indicate, because the sound is still tolerable. With SS amps, the output waveform will clip when you hit max power, and it sounds disgusting. I am not sure that this would account for, say, (100-18) W worth of power, but it is useful to note that if you even get 30W out of the 18W amp, you're suddenly only 5dB down compared to the 100W amp.
Have you measured the power delivered by the tube amp while playing at max volume?
EDIT: Forgot to address this earlier: Yes, the nominal max output of an SS amp is only useful when the load impedance is given. If an SS amp is rated at 100W at 8 ohms but is powering a 16 ohm driver, there goes a significant fraction of the power.
NL5
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That is along the same lines as what I have been saying.
As far as distortion, yes, SS distortion is generally thought of as pretty bad for guitar amps (or anything else for that matter), while tube amp distortion is rather pleasing. This is even true in the music world for less audible distortion. The harmonic distortion introduced by tubes is generally pleasing to the ear.
I would like to get a watt-meter (if that's the correct term), and measure the actual output of my 18 watt amp vs a 100 watt SS guitar amp.
NL5
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Actually, if I got 30 watts out of my 18 watter into a 16 ohm driver, and the 100 watt SS amp was rated at a 4 (or even 8) ohm load but run into a 16 ohm load (all my celestion drivers are 16 ohm) - wouldn't the 18 watter actually be pushing more air?
Edit - Apparently crate rates their heads at 4 ohm load -
http://www.studica.com/products/product_detail.cfm?productid=52951
Edit - Apparently crate rates their heads at 4 ohm load -
http://www.studica.com/products/product_detail.cfm?productid=52951
Usually, but not always, an SS amp will have its max output vary linearly with load impedance. That is to say, double the impedance, halve the power. Again, this doesn't always apply, but you can quite easily check the manufacturer's docs. If it's true in this instance, then the SS amp would be delivering 25W or 50W at 16 ohms, depending on what load impedance it was rated at.
Why don't you measure the power with your scope? Look up the impedance curve of your driver, pick any note (and find its frequency) and note what impedance value it corresponds to, and start from there.
Why don't you measure the power with your scope? Look up the impedance curve of your driver, pick any note (and find its frequency) and note what impedance value it corresponds to, and start from there.
NL5
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It's "stereo".
BTW - I apologize for Hijacking this thread.
But it looks like we have shown that an 18 watt tube amp can be more powerful than a 100 watt SS amp.
And,in my defense, I did state that an actual watt vs actual watt would be identical - but if my 18 watter is putting out an actual 30W and the 100W SS is putting out an actual 25W, the tube amp wins. Plus the fact that the Tube amp will sound better soaking the crap out of the power tubes, while the SS amp will really sound like crap pushing full power.Howard - I used the term "my" kind of loosely. The oscilloscope test was done when I was interning at a bigger studio. The engineer there WAS an electrical engineer, and you could clearly see the disturbances caused by a digital eq. they are pretty slight if you get a good eq, but we were using a waves linear eq plugin at the time. Pretty high end.
Anyway, thanks for clearing everything up!
Rubycon
Madame President
- Aug 10, 2005
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What was the source, processing, and output quantization? This usually happens when there is a mismatch and is well known with domain processors.
EDIT: And yest tube amps can play louder for a lot of factors but it boils down to compression which makes it louder. If the TA is handling the full spectrum it's not as pleasant.
The reasons for the difference in perception of the induced distortion has to do with the even / odd order harmonics generated.
IIRC, SS generates even ordered harmonics and Tubes generate odd. Which are also the reasons given for the perceptual differences given for the "Early adaption ifDigital vs Analog" debate.
As for a Watt Meter, what you're looking for is a VTVM to measure the voltage under load and then calculate the "watts" using that volts AC reading and the load impedance.
Maybe a "true rms" VOM will do the same thing, as I said before, This is rusty territory for me.
I concur, At first, I too was referencing a "combo" amp as well, but then we drifted off into "amplifier" discussion.
No, much of the tube sound is due to the abundance of 2nd order harmonics produced. Even sounds better than odd, and lower order sounds better than higher order.
ahh ok, adjusted me. thanks,
when I retired out of that business, I really let a lot of things, that I used to know and keep at hand for ready reference, go.
evident
Lifer
- Apr 5, 2005
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stay away from the line 6 spider's. i had a spider 210 for a year and it sounded pretty lousy, i thought it was an upgrade from a solid state marshall i had, but man was i wrong. I eventually sold that and got a marshall avt 100, sure it might be a little heavier, but i haven't looked back since =)
In an attempt to bringing the thread back on point, my personal criteria for amplification, either bass or guitar, is now what can be handled with a maximum of two trips, one being the optimal.
And it shouldn't require a hand cart or weight lifter belt.
I think the advances in modeling are a good thing overall and the Vox unit seemed well built enough last time I actually sat next to one.
< was in a band once where we only played what we could carry in one trip, per person, even the drummer.
he cheated, he used his g/f as One trip" and was hosed when she dumped him.
And it shouldn't require a hand cart or weight lifter belt.
I think the advances in modeling are a good thing overall and the Vox unit seemed well built enough last time I actually sat next to one.
< was in a band once where we only played what we could carry in one trip, per person, even the drummer.
he cheated, he used his g/f as One trip" and was hosed when she dumped him.
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