Another developer talks about pc vs console

[Modelworks]

I have no use for the company wild tangent, but the interview with this guy , former developer of directx, makes some very good points.

He also talks about how the 50.00 price tag for games is too high.
A better idea would be 25.00 for the first half of the game, then if you really like it, you can buy the rest for another 25.00.

One thing I hadn't thought about lately , I wonder how far they are in debt for the consoles versus sales so far.

And the thing that's interesting in this era, that I think is significant, is that Sony and Microsoft severely overextended themselves. Burned themselves. Burned more money than they could ever hope to get back on these consoles. Even if the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 3 are wild successes, they will never get their money back.

Also:

ASJ: Yeah, but what makes it so profitable? There are a lot of community games out there. What is it about a massive multiplayer game that makes it make so much revenue? Is it just community?

ET: Why don't you tell me?

ASJ: There's one very important feature: DRM. You can't f---ing steal the thing.

Its too long to quote the entire article
http://www.extremetech.com/art.../0,1697,2277507,00.asp

 

[clamum]

There's some good points he has there, like about the shitty mainstream graphics cards in PC and the part about the Wii having much less graphical capability than the Xbox 360 or PlayStation 3:

Second, who are the guys making money in the console space? Nintendo! They shipped off the shelf, cheapo, ATI video chips! And they're killing it! And the reason is that Nintendo correctly observes that graphics is no longer a differentiating feature; it's a commodity. The feature of the Nintendo [Wii] is a new type of game mechanic, enabled by a new controller. And so what that says is that graphics has become a commodity. As we talked about on the PC, all PCs are gonna have great graphics compared to a console, in many cases; the Japanese and Microsoft aren't going to engineer a superior graphics chip in the future than one you can buy from ATI or Nvidia; it's never gonna happen again. For Sony or Microsoft to go and design their own graphics chip would be lunacy in the next generation.

Decent article, but I found it a little hard to understand what St. John was trying to say in some spots. In those parts it's if it was written in stream-of-consciousness style and/or using incomplete sentences. Maybe it's just me though, haha.

 

[MrPickins]

The second thing, in Intel's case is, they ship the cheapest, crappiest graphics chip they can as the commodity component?they push the OEMs to do that, because really what they want to do is sell that big Intel chip, the processor, if they can, because that's really where their core expertise is; from an enterprise perspective, GPU is kind of an afterthought.

This guy is funny.

The reason so many commodity graphics cars ship is because they are plenty fast for the majority of PC buyers. Most people don't play (graphically intensive)games on their PCs.

 

[MikeyLSU]

Originally posted by: ModelworksAnd the thing that's interesting in this era, that I think is significant, is that Sony and Microsoft severely overextended themselves. Burned themselves. Burned more money than they could ever hope to get back on these consoles. Even if the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 3 are wild successes, they will never get their money back.

I disagree partly with this. I dont' know the financials, but I am going to assume that Sony lost a lot more money on each console than Microsoft. BUT, Sony won big with Blu Ray.

Blu Ray won and a big part of it was the PS3, so while they lost money on it overall, it could be split between 2 departments(gaming and disc format) So overall, they will easily win their money back between the two IMO.

 

[videogames101]

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: ModelworksAnd the thing that's interesting in this era, that I think is significant, is that Sony and Microsoft severely overextended themselves. Burned themselves. Burned more money than they could ever hope to get back on these consoles. Even if the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 3 are wild successes, they will never get their money back.

I disagree partly with this. I dont' know the financials, but I am going to assume that Sony lost a lot more money on each console than Microsoft. BUT, Sony won big with Blu Ray.

Blu Ray won and a big part of it was the PS3, so while they lost money on it overall, it could be split between 2 departments(gaming and disc format) So overall, they will easily win their money back between the two IMO.

he was right about sony, they're dead, but microsoft could not make a dime on the 360 and still throw themselves at the next generation, they have such massive amounts of resources.

 

[Inferno0032]

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: ModelworksAnd the thing that's interesting in this era, that I think is significant, is that Sony and Microsoft severely overextended themselves. Burned themselves. Burned more money than they could ever hope to get back on these consoles. Even if the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 3 are wild successes, they will never get their money back.

I disagree partly with this. I dont' know the financials, but I am going to assume that Sony lost a lot more money on each console than Microsoft. BUT, Sony won big with Blu Ray.

Blu Ray won and a big part of it was the PS3, so while they lost money on it overall, it could be split between 2 departments(gaming and disc format) So overall, they will easily win their money back between the two IMO.

he was right about sony, they're dead, but microsoft could not make a dime on the 360 and still throw themselves at the next generation, they have such massive amounts of resources.

How is sony "dead?"

 

[onlyCOpunk]

Sony is far from "dead." They just won the hi-def war with Blu Ray and since the retail price of a PS3 is the same as a regular old BD player, more people are going to be buying the PS3, even if they don't play games.

Anyways, I'm ove rthe whole console vs. PC thing, actually I was never in it to begin with. People have been gaming on both platforms for at least 25 years now and neither format of gaming is going triumph over the other.

 

[Thraxen]

Yeah, I think he's dead wrong on Sony. They are no longer taking big hits on the PS3. The price of the BR components has already dropped significantly and Sony has already stated they expect to make a profit on it this year. This year is also when the PS3's many of the PS3's biggest games are launching. That combined with the movie format victory and I think think the PS3 will prove to very profitiable for Sony in the long run. Just look how well the PS2 is still selling. If the PS3 has long legs too who know how much profit they'll turn over the long haul.

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: onlyCOpunk
Anyways, I'm ove rthe whole console vs. PC thing, actually I was never in it to begin with. People have been gaming on both platforms for at least 25 years now and neither format of gaming is going triumph over the other.

Exactly. I don't think either platform is going away any time soon. If PC gamers are so sure of themselves, why the constant worry over how well/bad consoles are doing? Just play your platform(s) of choice and quit worrying so much about how everyone else is doing.

 

[apoppin]

What *boggles* my mind is that i made approximately the same analysis that this guy did - a year ago! - except i was *right* about Sony - they needed to slash PS3 prices to win the "Hi-Def War"

it's all detailed here in a much better analysis - if i say so myself

Forget John Romero - XBox360 and PS3 ARE *Doomed*

Almost a year ago i didn't have the benefit of "hindsight" like this poor guy does ... my analysis was in "real time" ... and i haven't even bothered to Update it for many months .. he just did.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
I have no use for the company wild tangent, but the interview with this guy , former developer of directx, makes some very good points.

He also talks about how the 50.00 price tag for games is too high.
A better idea would be 25.00 for the first half of the game, then if you really like it, you can buy the rest for another 25.00.

One thing I hadn't thought about lately , I wonder how far they are in debt for the consoles versus sales so far.

And the thing that's interesting in this era, that I think is significant, is that Sony and Microsoft severely overextended themselves. Burned themselves. Burned more money than they could ever hope to get back on these consoles. Even if the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 3 are wild successes, they will never get their money back.

Also:

ASJ: Yeah, but what makes it so profitable? There are a lot of community games out there. What is it about a massive multiplayer game that makes it make so much revenue? Is it just community?

ET: Why don't you tell me?

ASJ: There's one very important feature: DRM. You can't f---ing steal the thing.

Its too long to quote the entire article
http://www.extremetech.com/art.../0,1697,2277507,00.asp

LOL that guy is an idiot I can think of a ton of Korean MMOs that have huge, public-run servers. These are people who have pirated the software (including the server software) and run free servers for their friends, perfect stranges, etc. Some of these servers easily reach the same size as the official servers (that you require a subscription for). In high school I and a few friends checked out some of these servers, but those Korean MMOs are mostly grindfests anyway (I thought of it as "previewing" the game since we didn't stay on for more than a few days)

Running a quick google search, there are countless public WoW servers as well.

People pay for MMOs for two reasons

A) Community
B) Easy reward (people love getting rewarded)

WoW is the most successful MMO of all time (highest population at least) because it caters to these two facets so well. It is quite possibly also the EASIEST MMO of all time. You are rewarded all the time for sometimes downright trivial tasks (run from point A to point B, kill 5 wolves, etc.)

As for community, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume two things (one of which likely contradicts my experience with the Korean MMOs)
1) The legit WoW servers have bigger populations than the pirated ones (possibly wrong)
2) The legit servers likely have better connections (and are certainly up to date)
3) The legit servers are easier to use (no need to screw around with 3rd party software connecting to a pirated server)

Well anyway, stating that MMOs can't be pirated is downright ignorant. Pirating is not a good thing to do, but we can't just deny its existence and then use that kind of faulty logic to prove a point.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: onlyCOpunk
Anyways, I'm ove rthe whole console vs. PC thing, actually I was never in it to begin with. People have been gaming on both platforms for at least 25 years now and neither format of gaming is going triumph over the other.

Exactly. I don't think either platform is going away any time soon. If PC gamers are so sure of themselves, why the constant worry over how well/bad consoles are doing? Just play your platform(s) of choice and quit worrying so much about how everyone else is doing.

I don't think *any* real gamers are concerned about the state of *any* console, including PC. Most of us don't give a damn.

Is the PS3 going to fail? Is the 360 going to fail? Is the PC going to disappear as a gaming platform in 10 years? I DON'T GIVE A DAMN. If people stopped designing games for PCs tomorrow, that really wouldn't change anything.

 

[BoberFett]

Alex St. John isn't a developer. He's a salesman. He was the original DirectX evangelist, but he is most definitely NOT a developer.

 

[Fingolfin269]

I'm just trying to figure out why everyone thinks the high-def war is over. Blu-Ray took down HD-DVD. They still haven't won anything but bragging rights at this point.

 

[Inferno0032]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I'm just trying to figure out why everyone thinks the high-def war is over. Blu-Ray took down HD-DVD. They still haven't won anything but bragging rights at this point.

It may not be completely over, but that's when hell of a massive step towards it. I haven't heard of any other technologies in the works to challenge it any time soon. And now that companies see it's current "superiority," for lack of a better word, they will begin manufacturing more, prices will drop quickly, and then it's the mainstream.

 

[RandomFool]

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: ModelworksAnd the thing that's interesting in this era, that I think is significant, is that Sony and Microsoft severely overextended themselves. Burned themselves. Burned more money than they could ever hope to get back on these consoles. Even if the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 3 are wild successes, they will never get their money back.

I disagree partly with this. I dont' know the financials, but I am going to assume that Sony lost a lot more money on each console than Microsoft. BUT, Sony won big with Blu Ray.

Blu Ray won and a big part of it was the PS3, so while they lost money on it overall, it could be split between 2 departments(gaming and disc format) So overall, they will easily win their money back between the two IMO.

The issue Sony has now is now that HD-DVD is dead, a large part of the PS3 userbase will have no interest in playing games on it. My Aunt was talking about the PS3 as a blu-ray player yesterday and she has zero interesting playing games on it. That's not going to be good for the PS3's attach rate which last I checked was already pretty bad.

 

[Jules]

Originally posted by: Thraxen

Originally posted by: onlyCOpunk
Anyways, I'm ove rthe whole console vs. PC thing, actually I was never in it to begin with. People have been gaming on both platforms for at least 25 years now and neither format of gaming is going triumph over the other.

Exactly. I don't think either platform is going away any time soon. If PC gamers are so sure of themselves, why the constant worry over how well/bad consoles are doing? Just play your platform(s) of choice and quit worrying so much about how everyone else is doing.

Well said.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: RandomFool

Originally posted by: MikeyLSU

Originally posted by: ModelworksAnd the thing that's interesting in this era, that I think is significant, is that Sony and Microsoft severely overextended themselves. Burned themselves. Burned more money than they could ever hope to get back on these consoles. Even if the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 3 are wild successes, they will never get their money back.

I disagree partly with this. I dont' know the financials, but I am going to assume that Sony lost a lot more money on each console than Microsoft. BUT, Sony won big with Blu Ray.

Blu Ray won and a big part of it was the PS3, so while they lost money on it overall, it could be split between 2 departments(gaming and disc format) So overall, they will easily win their money back between the two IMO.

The issue Sony has now is now that HD-DVD is dead, a large part of the PS3 userbase will have no interest in playing games on it. My Aunt was talking about the PS3 as a blu-ray player yesterday and she has zero interesting playing games on it. That's not going to be good for the PS3's attach rate which last I checked was already pretty bad.

But people realize that. Who cares if the attach rate is low? Anyone with half a brain knows that not everyone is going to buy a PS3 to play games on it.

All that means is that the numbers don't mean anything - not console sale numbers, not attach rates, etc. At this point the only game that would mean something would be total number of games sold (since those people are obviously playing games).

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
LOL that guy is an idiot I can think of a ton of Korean MMOs that have huge, public-run servers. These are people who have pirated the software (including the server software) and run free servers for their friends, perfect stranges, etc. Some of these servers easily reach the same size as the official servers (that you require a subscription for). In high school I and a few friends checked out some of these servers, but those Korean MMOs are mostly grindfests anyway (I thought of it as "previewing" the game since we didn't stay on for more than a few days)

Running a quick google search, there are countless public WoW servers as well.

People pay for MMOs for two reasons

A) Community
B) Easy reward (people love getting rewarded)

WoW is the most successful MMO of all time (highest population at least) because it caters to these two facets so well. It is quite possibly also the EASIEST MMO of all time. You are rewarded all the time for sometimes downright trivial tasks (run from point A to point B, kill 5 wolves, etc.)

As for community, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume two things (one of which likely contradicts my experience with the Korean MMOs)
1) The legit WoW servers have bigger populations than the pirated ones (possibly wrong)
2) The legit servers likely have better connections (and are certainly up to date)
3) The legit servers are easier to use (no need to screw around with 3rd party software connecting to a pirated server)

Well anyway, stating that MMOs can't be pirated is downright ignorant. Pirating is not a good thing to do, but we can't just deny its existence and then use that kind of faulty logic to prove a point.

He isn't an idiot. You can't pirate an MMO. You can emulate the entire environment, but it's never as good as the original servers, you lose a big part of the community, you lose the benefit of knowing your character is backed up properly. You end up on servers run by cheap shits who couldn't afford to pay the monthly fee in the first place. It's a garbage environment and the reason no MMO has ever really had to legitimately worry about it. Emulated environments are not even bad per say, if you look at the EQ scene you see a lot of cool alternate realities to that universe. The servers never get as cool or as active as the real ones though. The thing you have to ask yourself with an MMO is that "after I invest months of my life into this game will I be able to come back to that character a year or 2 later?" in most emulated servers the answer is a no.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
But people realize that. Who cares if the attach rate is low? Anyone with half a brain knows that not everyone is going to buy a PS3 to play games on it.

All that means is that the numbers don't mean anything - not console sale numbers, not attach rates, etc. At this point the only game that would mean something would be total number of games sold (since those people are obviously playing games).

For the last several generations Sony has made it's money on attach rate. It depends on people buying the games not the console. With Blu-Ray, I suppose you could say it depends on them buying the movies as well, but I don't know how much they make back per movie, and if that is what they are relying on, can they expect to artificially inflate the cost of BDs to cover the cost of PS3s?

 

[shingletingle]

Originally posted by: apoppin
What *boggles* my mind is that i made approximately the same analysis that this guy did - a year ago! - except i was *right* about Sony - they needed to slash PS3 prices to win the "Hi-Def War"

it's all detailed here in a much better analysis - if i say so myself

Forget John Romero - XBox360 and PS3 ARE *Doomed*

Almost a year ago i didn't have the benefit of "hindsight" like this poor guy does ... my analysis was in "real time" ... and i haven't even bothered to Update it for many months .. he just did.

Are you looking for a cookie?

 

[Xavier434]

And the thing that's interesting in this era, that I think is significant, is that Sony and Microsoft severely overextended themselves. Burned themselves. Burned more money than they could ever hope to get back on these consoles. Even if the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 3 are wild successes, they will never get their money back.

I am confused. I read that MS, Sony, and Nintendo are all in the black now when it comes to their consoles. Sony was the last to make that achievement, but even that was a couple months ago I believe.

 

[apoppin]

they are making profit now ... MS lost BILLIONS on the Xbox platform [they call it an 'investment'] .. yeah, 100M profit in a single year the last - i dunno, are they counting their quarter-billion in advertising? they use fuzzy math to show a profit for their investors,i think

Sony will NEVER make a penny on PS3 ... it cost them to sell each one .. but they are solvent in other areas and are using the PS3 to sell blueRay - pretty desperate considering what they [unreastically] EXPECTED; PS2 is still making them pure profit

only nintendo is making money on GAMES and on GAME SYSTEMS - because it did 10x better than expected - and no devs originally expected to support it
-it is a RUNAWAY success - in contrast to the other two 'dead' platforms that are on artificial life support

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: apoppin
they are making profit now ... MS lost BILLIONS on the Xbox platform [they call it an 'investment'] .. yeah, 100M profit in a single year the last - i dunno, are they counting their quarter-billion in advertising? they use fuzzy math to show a profit for their investors,i think

Sony will NEVER make a penny on PS3 ... it cost them to sell each one .. but they are solvent in other areas and are using the PS3 to sell blueRay - pretty desperate considering what they [unreastically] EXPECTED; PS2 is still making them pure profit

only nintendo is making money on GAMES and on GAME SYSTEMS - because it did 10x better than expected - and no devs originally expected to support it
-it is a RUNAWAY success - in contrast to the other two 'dead' platforms that are on artificial life support

I don't know...I am pretty sure both Sony and MS are completely in the black even after considering all advertising expenses. The articles I read talked about the money that was spent on the original XBOX and made it all sound as if they are completely in the black now. Even if that is not true, they are most definitely moving forward. It's simply a matter of time. As long as the console gaming industry continues to hold such massive amounts of popularity there will be a huge market. I would say that at worst, Sony might drop out of the game leaving just MS and Nintendo but it will take quite a bit for me to even believe that time is coming soon if ever.

 

[apoppin]

i believe MS spent 21 billion dollars on the Xbox platform .. they will never get that back ... the profit they talk about is for THIS year .. i believe they only had one or two actually "profitable" QUARTERS out of 8 losing years
Twenty one BILLION dollars down the MS Xbox drain in 8 years = LOSS .. they could have used that money to make a really good OS and support PC gaming much better than their half-ass attempts with conflicting interests in consoles .. the money they BLEW on xbox platform could have made MS and PC the ONLY console - Sony's wouldn't even exist.

http://www.forbes.com/home/per...e_0418soapbox_inl.html

it is pretty clear that Gates has lost his 'touch' to his old buddy Steve
- MS cant PR anything well anymore - their arrogance has really cost them
[not to mention their voodoo-analysts MS now employs to guide them]

you really ought to look at my old thread - it covers EVERYTHING we are discussing [better than we are discussing it here ] - it is a 'flamer' in the first half [naturally, it was posted in "Video"] then it gets really interesting 2/3rds of the way through ... maybe starting on page six of 9


http://forums.anandtech.com/me...AR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear