Another blow to freedom in the name of anti-terrorism.

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
busmaster11, I don't want to burst whatever delusional bubble you are breathing in, but Texmaster would most certainly not agree with your views on this matter.

I know that. Was my comment misleading or did you misread?

 

[Kilban]

Unfortunetly, I think most terrorist attacks cant be prevented. Just imagine this......On September 11, every single plane coming in and going out of America had a secret agent on board. Is it practical? Hell no!

 

[ThisIsMatt]

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Found some other sweet quotes, too:

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you.

Most people do not really want freedom, because freedom involves responsibility, and most people are frightened of responsibility.

If you want a Big Brother, you get all that comes with it.

19 terrorists in 6 weeks have been able to command 300 million North Americans to do away with the entirety of their civil liberties that took 700 years to advance from the Magna Carta onward. The terrorists have already won the political and ideological war with one terrorist act. It is mindboggling that we are that weak as a society.

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate commerce.

You should never wear your best trousers when you go out to fight for freedom and liberty.

When the government fears the people there is liberty; when the people fear the government there is tyranny.

@

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Wonderful. Now explain why.

If you want a Big Brother, you get all that comes with it.

Yet another lame, transparent attempt at extremist labels...

19 terrorists in 6 weeks have been able to command 300 million North Americans to do away with the entirety of their civil liberties that took 700 years to advance from the Magna Carta onward. The terrorists have already won the political and ideological war with one terrorist act. It is mindboggling that we are that weak as a society.

We've lost the entirety of our civil liberties? Interesting... Please explain the mere fact you're posting opinions to this forum...

Quotes are cool to have... But they ought to supplement, not replace an attempt at fact-based arguments.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Cyberian

The right of the people to be secure in their person, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

I'm not following how this would apply to an FBI agent attending a public meeting or going to a library.
Can't anyone who wants to do these things do them now?

This is not my point. I addressed the original post with this:

"As to the topic at hand, the government is simply looking at already public actions, events, and websites. From what I understand they are not going beyond that."

I am now addressing other's claims that the government should have even broader powers, leading to the erosion of our privacy.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: AmusedOne

Originally posted by: busmaster11
Amused -

This is a war. These are drastic times. Many people have sacrificed MUCH more than you and I have - namely lives.

If the government was thinking philosophically like you (ie, EGADS! liberty equals life!) and not pragmatically we will lose more than a bit of privacy...

You can be pragmatic without converting to virtual fascism, Busmaster.

All the privacy violations in the world will not stop these people. Look at the War on Drugs for proof of that. What our government needed to do was infiltrate the organizations that did this.. but they needed to start that years ago. Instead, we were afraid of getting our hands dirty and dealing with scummy people. Now we are screwed for years until we can actually get people into these organizations and do what we should have been doing all along.

Arbitrary and capricious searches and monitoring will be COUNTER PRODUCTIVE as it will waste time and resources ... not to mention it will violate our rights as Americans.

In the fight to defeat our enemies, make damn sure you do not become just like them, Busmaster.

You can call my stance facist as much as I can call yours anarchist. Your tactic of constantly trying to label me as extremist to solidify your point is tiresome.

I know that these liberties have been abused by the FBI in the past, and it is likely to happen again without some checks and balances. But we learn from our mistakes. The facts are that agents have grown frustrated at their limitations in conducting their investigations.

The war on drugs is no more like the war on terrorism than it is like like the war on pollution. I don't have any evidence of what works or what won't, and I think neither do you. You seem to draw a lot of conclusions. Now prove them.

Personally I don't claim to know what would be effective. All I know is what analysts say and what the FBI recommends - at this point the potential benefits far outweigh the risks. I would think they have a *little* more credibility.

Everyone's saying another big attack is emminent and we may not be able to stop it. So these are drastic times. You can stay steadfast in your convictions, but I'm not willing to sacrifice everything for some imaginary freedom we're supposedly losing...

Bus, your claim was that the government should have broad powers to search and snoop. My inference here was that you intended that power would not require the obtaining of a warrant or probable cause.

Maybe you could define your stance more before we can get down to specifics?

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Vespasian
I have no problem with people complaining that the FBI shouldn't have any new powers because it infringes on our rights. I just don't want those same people to also complain that the FBI should know such things like the location of al-Qaeda operatives in the United States.

No, the CIA should know where they are. We are now relying on the FBI because we neutered the CIA's ability to infiltrate these organizations in the first place.

And now we are left with knee-jerk reactionism instead of well planned and thought out prevention.

 

[busmaster11]

Originally posted by: AmusedOne
Bus, your claim was that the government should have broad powers to search and snoop. My inference here was that you intended that power would not require the obtaining of a warrant or probable cause.

Maybe you could define your stance more before we can get down to specifics?

I dunno. My original intention was to defend the actions announced today by the FBI. I didn't feel it was that terrible for the FBI to be able to waltz into a public venue for the purpose of reconnaisance...

That plus I feel its ludicrous to think we're all losing our civil liberties due to this...

That was pretty much it.

 

[Spagina]

Originally posted by: GSOYF
as far as I am concerned they can do whatever the hell they want to ensure that there will not be another sept. 11th.

I don't break the law, so go right ahead and do whatever you want....tap my damn phones if you feel as though I am a threat...



by the way...we really need to kill all those afganistan bastards held down in Cuba or else they are going to do it all over again. God do I really really REALLY hate those damn people that are fighting for their rights....did any of you see the damn daniel pearl video??? after seeing that I have zero compassion for those bastards.

IMHO

:|

I feel sorry for you then. One of the basic principles of our freedoms is innocent until proven guilty. I don't have anything to hide, but the last thing I want is the government to have the right to investigate me and tap my phones for no reason. People nowadays are too much like total sheep and your posts proves it.

 

[UDT89]

i think our best bet is to close the borders for 3-4 years................catch up with the INS problems, then open them back up with stronger restrictions.


As much as i know its against the American way, racial profiling shouldnt be frowned upon that much. Yea yea, i know i'm white. But most drug dealers in my area are white and i wish the cops would profile them off the streets.

We have this weird way at looking at our security and freedom. We think we can be safe from harm and have all these great freedoms. Even though its worked for a LONG time, 230+ years, time are changing and the US needs to change as well. I mean we're the youngest nation on the face of the earth, so change really shouldnt be that hard. Unlike Europe thats over a 1000 years old.............



Its great to see people seeing eye to eye, that this REALLY doesnt change your freedoms. If you're gonna have a problem with the FBI doing a field investigation on you, then you got issues. I never had a problem with the police let alone with the F B I.

Cmon people, if you really dont like it here..............................................................leave. See what i care. Seems very insignificant compared to being able to live in the best country in the world.

 

[SuperTool]

Just want to say Hi to the FBI agent monitoring this thread.
I know I said some bad things about John Ashcroft in here. Please don't send me to a Gulag. I swear I won't do it again