Another Anti-Union Talking point debunked

[babylon5]

I think you miss my point.

All I am saying is, American prefer cheap labors, whether it's from Illegals or overseas.

That is just reality.

 

[Jhhnn]

Originally posted by: glenn1
It doesn't really matter whether you believe the figure is $28 or $70. Either way, they're above what is sustainable to ensure the next generation of jobs gets created. We could have "thinned the herd" a few years ago, but instead starvation will bring the population back into harmony with its environment. Or if you prefer, car manufacturing in this country (and the UAW along with it) are like the dinosaurs who grew too large for their environment and were goners once the asteroid hit, and will join the dodo bird and sabre-tooth tiger in extinction.

If their wages are competitive with Toyota's North American operations, then Toyota must be non-sustainable, as well, right? But Toyota is doing well, so there must be some other factors at work...

Wages are what sustains the economy, not wealth accumulation at the top, despite the promises of trickle down economists. It doesn't matter how much the top .01% has if the vast majority of the other 99.99% can't make ends meet, can't contribute to both production and consumption...

Wage and productivity increases have led every economic recovery in our history, except for this last one, which was just recovery for the rich...

 

[ProfJohn]

It is a big time irony that the party of unions and the little guy supports illegal immigration which hurts unions and the little guy.

One of the main reasons we haven't seen wages at the bottom of the pay scale raise is due to the influx of low skilled workers willing to work for next to nothing.
If we had a stronger boarder we would see a natural rise in wages across the board as the worker poll shrinks.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: glenn1
It doesn't really matter whether you believe the figure is $28 or $70. Either way, they're above what is sustainable to ensure the next generation of jobs gets created. We could have "thinned the herd" a few years ago, but instead starvation will bring the population back into harmony with its environment. Or if you prefer, car manufacturing in this country (and the UAW along with it) are like the dinosaurs who grew too large for their environment and were goners once the asteroid hit, and will join the dodo bird and sabre-tooth tiger in extinction.

If their wages are competitive with Toyota's North American operations, then Toyota must be non-sustainable, as well, right? But Toyota is doing well, so there must be some other factors at work...

Wages are what sustains the economy, not wealth accumulation at the top, despite the promises of trickle down economists. It doesn't matter how much the top .01% has if the vast majority of the other 99.99% can't make ends meet, can't contribute to both production and consumption...

Wage and productivity increases have led every economic recovery in our history, except for this last one, which was just recovery for the rich...

You are so wrong on that last point.

Wages are among the last things to recover in a downturn. Profits are the first.

Companies exist to make profits, not pay wages. When a company starts to lose profits the first thing it does is cut back on its wages. Eventually it cuts back to the point that is starts to make money again.

 

[glenn1]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

Originally posted by: glenn1
It doesn't really matter whether you believe the figure is $28 or $70. Either way, they're above what is sustainable to ensure the next generation of jobs gets created. We could have "thinned the herd" a few years ago, but instead starvation will bring the population back into harmony with its environment. Or if you prefer, car manufacturing in this country (and the UAW along with it) are like the dinosaurs who grew too large for their environment and were goners once the asteroid hit, and will join the dodo bird and sabre-tooth tiger in extinction.

If their wages are competitive with Toyota's North American operations, then Toyota must be non-sustainable, as well, right? But Toyota is doing well, so there must be some other factors at work...

Wages are what sustains the economy, not wealth accumulation at the top, despite the promises of trickle down economists. It doesn't matter how much the top .01% has if the vast majority of the other 99.99% can't make ends meet, can't contribute to both production and consumption...

Wage and productivity increases have led every economic recovery in our history, except for this last one, which was just recovery for the rich...

Stop pointing at other companies like Toyota since it makes not one whit of difference what they pay their workers who live in a completely different geographical area. The fact is, workers at UAW plants are uncompetitively priced both vs. workers in other areas (i.e. your Toyota worker example) AND vis a vis replacement workers in their same area (i.e. others currently unemployed in Detroit would be willing to work for less than union wages).

As far as your statement "wages are what sustains the economy," well that's pointless since the value of labor cannot exceed its marginal utility to the employer, else the job will go away, and the UAW is Exhibit A for that.

 

[Jhhnn]

Nice try, glenn1. Toyota assembly plants are located in places where the cost of living and wages in general are lower than their US competitors, but they still pay comparable wages.

American auto manufacturers' problems run a lot deeper than the cost of labor- they utilize labor less effectively than their competitors, they have design, engineering and QC problems, not to mention that they've been looted by a series of fast-buck management teams for decades. they're also overly dependent on credit for daily operations and to counteract cashflow shortfalls.

Marginal utility is a much more complex concept than you represent it to be. Inherent within that is buyer perception, particularly wrt quality. American auto makers compete effectively on the basis of price, but not on the basis of perceived quality per dollar, which really has almost nothing to do with the price of labor but rather with the engineering and QC efforts applied to the product... Their problem is that not enough product is being sold for reasons other than the cost of production... Cutting production costs is meaningless if the product won't sell, and cutting the price won't necessarily improve sales if it's not the product consumers want- witness Yugo...

 

[bamx2]

Big 3 cannot build cars that people want at a price people can afford. That is the bottom line.

 

[Pacemaker]

My issue with unions is that they don't seem to realize how good they have it. They get benefits and wages as if they went to college for 4 years (paying someone else money, and sacrificing time they could have been working to earn money). I'm not saying a degree makes you somehow better than someone who doesn't have one, but it is an expense, and it should yield a benefit.

You have to admit that it would be a bit disheartening to learn that someone who you went to high school with who never worked hard in school (not all union workers) made the same money as you 4 years after high school when you worked your but off in school and then went to college for 4 years (not to mention the debt you now have thanks to those 4 years in college).

The point is that if you are making that kind of money without going to college (and possibly incurring a large amount of debt in the process) then stop complaining. All I hear from union workers is how bad they have it and how the company is horrible.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Actually, if the automakers would get their collective heads out of their asses and build the fuel efficient cars that most people want, they'd sell more cars...and aleviate much of the problems facing them today.
They have the ability (and well-trained workforce) to build quality cars, now then need to build more desirable cars.

This has NOTHING TO DO with fuel effeciency. Ford and GM make some VERY fuel effiencient cars that usually match or beat the Japanese. They just don't have that special little hybrid model that gets them 40+ MPG. That's all.

 

[SunnyD]

The whole problem with unions are that average person can't go into GM and say "I'll work for $10/hr", allowing GM to competitively shop for employees and reduce costs. The unions simply won't allow that because they're too damn greedy. The unions handcuff GM into what they can and can't do with employee compensation, thereby reducing profitability for GM.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Actually, if the automakers would get their collective heads out of their asses and build the fuel efficient cars that most people want, they'd sell more cars...and aleviate much of the problems facing them today.
They have the ability (and well-trained workforce) to build quality cars, now then need to build more desirable cars.

This has NOTHING TO DO with fuel effeciency. Ford and GM make some VERY fuel effiencient cars that usually match or beat the Japanese. They just don't have that special little hybrid model that gets them 40+ MPG. That's all.

btw-Boomer it has been said that Toyota loses money on every Prius they make. That is why they don't make a lot of them. People aren't willing to pay a price premium that they are unlikely to recover over the life of the vehicle.

I've heard more than one poster on this board say that the bailout should be tied to a fuel efficiency standard, well I can't think of any way that will bring about the failure of an auto company faster than forcing them to make vehicles that people don't want to buy.

 

[Nemesis 1]

My wife makes $35 as a manager. Based on a forty hour week. Her Sister manages the company . Her Salary is higher but her average is lower because of O/T. This is a none union company. My Son runs the dayshift binery department . But not a manager yet. He makes $24 But Makes about $75,000 a year because of O/T. With benies my sons wages per hour come to $55 dollars an hour . Debunk that. This is a none union shop.

Union can be Both good and bad. THe BAD= Iron workers/ Construction workers.

Way over paid. IF bridges fall down and Buildings collaspes from fire . The first in recorded history . SO for this thread . I will say No conspirecy By government for 9/11.

Just crooked Ignored Specs. And Shabby work. I worked in Both Unions . Both are crooked . Janesville MN. School was built out of spec. With full backing of the onsite government inspectors. I was there I know for fact.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
My wife makes $35 as a manager. Based on a forty hour week. Her Sister manages the company . Her Salary is higher but her average is lower because of O/T. This is a none union company. My Son runs the dayshift binery department . But not a manager yet. He makes $24 But Makes about $75,000 a year because of O/T. With benies my sons wages per hour come to $55 dollars an hour . Debunk that. This is a none union shop.

Union can be Both good and bad. THe BAD= Iron workers/ Construction workers.

Way over paid. IF bridges fall down and Buildings collaspes from fire . The first in recorded history . SO for this thread . I will say No conspirecy By government for 9/11.

Just crooked Ignored Specs. And Shabby work. I worked in Both Unions . Both are crooked . Janesville MN. Shool was built out of spec. With full backing of the onsite government inspectors. I was there I know for fact.

That is terrible. I could go on and on about the bad old days at GM. At times it wasn't very pretty.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Actually, if the automakers would get their collective heads out of their asses and build the fuel efficient cars that most people want, they'd sell more cars...and aleviate much of the problems facing them today.
They have the ability (and well-trained workforce) to build quality cars, now then need to build more desirable cars.

They built what buyers wanted...large trucks and SUVs. If gas prices didnt go bat shit crazy they would still be churning them out.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
My wife makes $35 as a manager. Based on a forty hour week. Her Sister manages the company . Her Salary is higher but her average is lower because of O/T. This is a none union company. My Son runs the dayshift binery department . But not a manager yet. He makes $24 But Makes about $75,000 a year because of O/T. With benies my sons wages per hour come to $55 dollars an hour . Debunk that. This is a none union shop.

Union can be Both good and bad. THe BAD= Iron workers/ Construction workers.

Way over paid. IF bridges fall down and Buildings collaspes from fire . The first in recorded history . SO for this thread . I will say No conspirecy By government for 9/11.

Just crooked Ignored Specs. And Shabby work. I worked in Both Unions . Both are crooked . Janesville MN. Shool was built out of spec. With full backing of the onsite government inspectors. I was there I know for fact.

Too bad you haven't availed yourself of the many wonderful things the employees who make up the Teachers' Unions have to offer...your posts read. Terrible. ly. Bad


I worked construction for over 30 years...nearly all of that as a Union member. Bridges fall down...because of poor design and engineering, NOT usually because of anything the union workers did...same for the buildings that collapse. because. OF. Fire. Can't. Blame any of that. On the. Union workers.

IF some skool. Was built out of spec. With full backing of the government inspectors. Wouldn't that. Be an issue with the construction company. and the building inspectors. Not the unionized workers who build things. the way they're told? or to the. Standards the company. Sets in place.?

I think. You're either talking out. Your ass. or You don't have a clue. About what you are. Talking. About.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
My wife makes $35 as a manager. Based on a forty hour week. Her Sister manages the company . Her Salary is higher but her average is lower because of O/T. This is a none union company. My Son runs the dayshift binery department . But not a manager yet. He makes $24 But Makes about $75,000 a year because of O/T. With benies my sons wages per hour come to $55 dollars an hour . Debunk that. This is a none union shop.

Union can be Both good and bad. THe BAD= Iron workers/ Construction workers.

Way over paid. IF bridges fall down and Buildings collaspes from fire . The first in recorded history . SO for this thread . I will say No conspirecy By government for 9/11.

Just crooked Ignored Specs. And Shabby work. I worked in Both Unions . Both are crooked . Janesville MN. Shool was built out of spec. With full backing of the onsite government inspectors. I was there I know for fact.

Thats the fault of the government inspectors and the prime contractor, not the union workers.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
My wife makes $35 as a manager. Based on a forty hour week. Her Sister manages the company . Her Salary is higher but her average is lower because of O/T. This is a none union company. My Son runs the dayshift binery department . But not a manager yet. He makes $24 But Makes about $75,000 a year because of O/T. With benies my sons wages per hour come to $55 dollars an hour . Debunk that. This is a none union shop.

Union can be Both good and bad. THe BAD= Iron workers/ Construction workers.

Way over paid. IF bridges fall down and Buildings collaspes from fire . The first in recorded history . SO for this thread . I will say No conspirecy By government for 9/11.

Just crooked Ignored Specs. And Shabby work. I worked in Both Unions . Both are crooked . Janesville MN. Shool was built out of spec. With full backing of the onsite government inspectors. I was there I know for fact.

Thats the fault of the government inspectors and the prime contractor, not the union workers.

No its not. Its governmenttax money . Everyone involved is guilty. Except me . I stood up . Your doing the work its your responsability to follow specs. If Inspectot tells you to change spec. Its your responsibilty to find out if that change was cost cutting on a bid job.

This is in just my little world ok . Small area. We have Grand Meadow MN . School built on a bog . Now its sinking. Cost of land 3mil. Sellers of land. The mayors 2 sons. Better land was available at lower price. But the mayor insisted on the bog . Gee I wonder why.

Fraud that will go unpunished. Don't try to tell me that this is a nation of laws. This is a nation of lawlessness if your in a power position. IF things get worse than the 30's . The lawless power mongers WILL be Killed . And rightly so.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
My wife makes $35 as a manager. Based on a forty hour week. Her Sister manages the company . Her Salary is higher but her average is lower because of O/T. This is a none union company. My Son runs the dayshift binery department . But not a manager yet. He makes $24 But Makes about $75,000 a year because of O/T. With benies my sons wages per hour come to $55 dollars an hour . Debunk that. This is a none union shop.

Union can be Both good and bad. THe BAD= Iron workers/ Construction workers.

Way over paid. IF bridges fall down and Buildings collaspes from fire . The first in recorded history . SO for this thread . I will say No conspirecy By government for 9/11.

Just crooked Ignored Specs. And Shabby work. I worked in Both Unions . Both are crooked . Janesville MN. Shool was built out of spec. With full backing of the onsite government inspectors. I was there I know for fact.

Too bad you haven't availed yourself of the many wonderful things the employees who make up the Teachers' Unions have to offer...your posts read. Terrible. ly. Bad


I worked construction for over 30 years...nearly all of that as a Union member. Bridges fall down...because of poor design and engineering, NOT usually because of anything the union workers did...same for the buildings that collapse. because. OF. Fire. Can't. Blame any of that. On the. Union workers.

IF some skool. Was built out of spec. With full backing of the government inspectors. Wouldn't that. Be an issue with the construction company. and the building inspectors. Not the unionized workers who build things. the way they're told? or to the. Standards the company. Sets in place.?

I think. You're either talking out. Your ass. or You don't have a clue. About what you are. Talking. About.

YA the school system failed badly with my grammer. But what would you expect . When most teachers Failed in there choosen field. Failed teaching Children = Fail.

 

[BarneyFife]

The inspector can not tell you to change specs. The ENGINEER is responsible for that. Your boss whoever was the prime contractor should have figured out what was going on. To me this sounds like some small little hick town debacle that was outright theft by all parties involved.

Believe me, this stuff does not happen on state and federal jobs. I should know because I work for the state govt. All specs are followed to a tee. The union labor out there is great. Never have a problem with any of the operators and they know how to do their job.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
My wife makes $35 as a manager. Based on a forty hour week. Her Sister manages the company . Her Salary is higher but her average is lower because of O/T. This is a none union company. My Son runs the dayshift binery department . But not a manager yet. He makes $24 But Makes about $75,000 a year because of O/T. With benies my sons wages per hour come to $55 dollars an hour . Debunk that. This is a none union shop.

Union can be Both good and bad. THe BAD= Iron workers/ Construction workers.

Way over paid. IF bridges fall down and Buildings collaspes from fire . The first in recorded history . SO for this thread . I will say No conspirecy By government for 9/11.

Just crooked Ignored Specs. And Shabby work. I worked in Both Unions . Both are crooked . Janesville MN. Shool was built out of spec. With full backing of the onsite government inspectors. I was there I know for fact.

Too bad you haven't availed yourself of the many wonderful things the employees who make up the Teachers' Unions have to offer...your posts read. Terrible. ly. Bad


I worked construction for over 30 years...nearly all of that as a Union member. Bridges fall down...because of poor design and engineering, NOT usually because of anything the union workers did...same for the buildings that collapse. because. OF. Fire. Can't. Blame any of that. On the. Union workers.

IF some skool. Was built out of spec. With full backing of the government inspectors. Wouldn't that. Be an issue with the construction company. and the building inspectors. Not the unionized workers who build things. the way they're told? or to the. Standards the company. Sets in place.?

I think. You're either talking out. Your ass. or You don't have a clue. About what you are. Talking. About.

YA the school system failed badly with my grammer. But what would you expect . When most teachers Failed in there choosen field. Failed teaching Children = Fail.

I have terrible grammar also as English is not my first language but you can at least try.
That is pretty bad, stop already it is like I am getting an overseas cablegram from ww2. end.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
My wife makes $35 as a manager. Based on a forty hour week. Her Sister manages the company . Her Salary is higher but her average is lower because of O/T. This is a none union company. My Son runs the dayshift binery department . But not a manager yet. He makes $24 But Makes about $75,000 a year because of O/T. With benies my sons wages per hour come to $55 dollars an hour . Debunk that. This is a none union shop.

Union can be Both good and bad. THe BAD= Iron workers/ Construction workers.

Way over paid. IF bridges fall down and Buildings collaspes from fire . The first in recorded history . SO for this thread . I will say No conspirecy By government for 9/11.

Just crooked Ignored Specs. And Shabby work. I worked in Both Unions . Both are crooked . Janesville MN. Shool was built out of spec. With full backing of the onsite government inspectors. I was there I know for fact.

Too bad you haven't availed yourself of the many wonderful things the employees who make up the Teachers' Unions have to offer...your posts read. Terrible. ly. Bad


I worked construction for over 30 years...nearly all of that as a Union member. Bridges fall down...because of poor design and engineering, NOT usually because of anything the union workers did...same for the buildings that collapse. because. OF. Fire. Can't. Blame any of that. On the. Union workers.

IF some skool. Was built out of spec. With full backing of the government inspectors. Wouldn't that. Be an issue with the construction company. and the building inspectors. Not the unionized workers who build things. the way they're told? or to the. Standards the company. Sets in place.?

I think. You're either talking out. Your ass. or You don't have a clue. About what you are. Talking. About.

YA the school system failed badly with my grammer. But what would you expect . When most teachers Failed in there choosen field. Failed teaching Children = Fail.

I have terrible grammar also as English is not my first language but you can at least try.
That is pretty bad, stop already it is like I am getting an overseas cablegram from ww2. end.

What makes you think that? Maybe I am working my ass off trying to key. Don't assume to know. How hard I am trying . Because you haven't a dam clue.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
The inspector can not tell you to change specs. The ENGINEER is responsible for that. Your boss whoever was the prime contractor should have figured out what was going on. To me this sounds like some small little hick town debacle that was outright theft by all parties involved.

Believe me, this stuff does not happen on state and federal jobs. I should know because I work for the state govt. All specs are followed to a tee. The union labor out there is great. Never have a problem with any of the operators and they know how to do their job.

BS . I challenge you to show me the Vapor barrier under the JV. MN school. Floor. You may be up and up . But so many crooks in government.To put them away were they belong. We would have to let the present population out. To put them away.

I should have been more clear. If a spec is changed to accomadate an out of spec part. Its my job next to talk to inspector . If he oks it. Than I have to use good sense in determining of its cost cutting or a correction. If your worth anything as an inspector. You know dam well any Iron worker would be able to detremine that. If its cost cutting on a bid job . Smelly fishy


Also your union employees . I agree they know there jobs. That make good money. They also do not rock the boat if they want to stay employeed. Honor is lost to$$$

 

[bctbct]

Not sure how you would equate the piers/footings/compaction on a school sinking into a bog with eliminating a vapor barrier.

Now if you said an epoxy floor coating was delaminating. I would blame it on the vapor barrier.

Nemesis, what kind of work do you do?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Originally posted by: bctbct
Not sure how you would equate the piers/footings/compaction on a school sinking into a bog with eliminating a vapor barrier.

Now if you said an epoxy floor coating was delaminating. I would blame it on the vapor barrier.

Nemesis, what kind of work do you do?

None now. My body got killed by a working fool. But heres . How I started out with Family. Wife self worked at birdseye in 68 . pulling down 75 cents an hour. Trying to raise a family living in a shack. Things got better when I made a few good investments. That timed out perfectly . Per luck . Didn't have a clue what I was going. But I bought Home shopping well before the Short squeeze. Had our life saving in three stocks . The amount. We invested than makes me laugh and cry at the same time. What could have been . So we had nest. Than I told wife because by now she had good work. I wanted to be one of the best mechanic techs around. She said thats sounds good. So I said I don't want to learn the traditional way. I want to work in all the fields that a top mechanic tech has to know. I did to every required field but one. But I have always been good with electro mechanical force . So I skipped because of time. Wife ask were ya going to work I told her she thought I was crazy. I told her I wanted to stay in food processing . So thats What I Did. I went from a mechanics helper to a class 1A in 4 months. Something School boys can only dream of. THe Bad= 90 hour week for six straight months. The good $2,300. A week. I did this for fifteen years . I did Everthing . Fabing /machening/ Computer systems tech in Visiual aid Equipment. Hydraulics/ pneumatics expert/ Mechanics electrical licenes/License boiler operator. . I have never since I Been married. Been involved in any Job that would cause harm to anyone anywere from products produced. Nor Have I injured anyone. Since becoming an adult . My safty record is spotless. I only could stand 15 years of those kind of hours. Than I opened A fab shop. My body suddenly went to hell and I retired. I been hit so hard . Ipromise you this. You would not have gotten up ever.

SO what exactly is it that you do.


Ok . I see. There are 2 differant schools were discussing both fraud. The floor I am talking about is JN MN. School . Its the Gym floor. I know my trades fella.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1

Originally posted by: bctbct
Not sure how you would equate the piers/footings/compaction on a school sinking into a bog with eliminating a vapor barrier.

Now if you said an epoxy floor coating was delaminating. I would blame it on the vapor barrier.

Nemesis, what kind of work do you do?

None now. My body got killed by a working fool. But heres . How I started out with Family. Wife self worked at birdseye in 68 . pulling down 75 cents an hour. Trying to raise a family living in a shack. Things got better when I made a few good investments. That timed out perfectly . Per luck . Didn't have a clue what I was going. But I bought Home shopping well before the Short squeeze. Had our life saving in three stocks . The amount. We invested than makes me laugh and cry at the same time. What could have been . So we had nest. Than I told wife because by now she had good work. I wanted to be one of the best mechanic techs around. She said thats sounds good. So I said I don't want to learn the traditional way. I want to work in all the fields that a top mechanic tech has to know. I did to every required field but one. But I have always been good with electro mechanical force . So I skipped because of time. Wife ask were ya going to work I told her she thought I was crazy. I told her I wanted to stay in food processing . So thats What I Did. I went from a mechanics helper to a class 1A in 4 months. Something School boys can only dream of. THe Bad= 90 hour week for six straight months. The good $2,300. A week. I did this for fifteen years . I did Everthing . Fabing /machening/ Computer systems tech in Visiual aid Equipment. Hydraulics/ pneumatics expert/ Mechanics electrical licenes/License boiler operator. . I have never since I Been married. Been involved in any Job that would cause harm to anyone anywere from products produced. Nor Have I injured anyone. Since becoming an adult . My safty record is spotless. I only could stand 15 years of those kind of hours. Than I opened A fab shop. My body suddenly went to hell and I retired. I been hit so hard . Ipromise you this. You would not have gotten up ever.

SO what exactly is it that you do.


Ok . I see. There are to differant schools were discussing both fraud.

MAn, is your full stop button broken or what?

How in the hell are these two seperate sentences?

"But heres . How I started out with Family."