Another Anti-Union Talking point debunked

[Steeplerot]

edit: this post is utterly incoherent from rushing to work.
I will save you guys a headache.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Svnla
much other benefits (job bank, pension, retirees and dependents benefits) cost GM?

No one is saying GM employee salary/wage is 7x.xx per hour. It is the total "overall cost". Someone from accounting probably can explain better than I can.

I got you there, that was not what I was saying either, I was speaking of in the OP how much in real life those benefits + their 20 something an hour actually come out to, and it is nowhere near 70, actually it is a bit lower then what the foreign companies employees make. (in 2010)

Which is why I am saying that 70 is bunk.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
I do not expect it to save a industry with poor management on the take. The lack of innovation, and of course the terribly bogged down unions and their political issues.

The unions have all but been taken over by what they started out against. It is a damn shame too, the whole lot of them need to be seriously shaken up. But blaming unions alone for this huge mess, or that the workers are at fault for demanding a decent wage is mind boggling that other working class folks give them crap for it.

I guess when you look at how mega rich management is getting and getting away with it, any opportunist worth his salt would side with management also.
It is all about getting rich in some peoples view, and a lot of people could care less how they get there. They just want in on the action.

George Carlin RIP said it pretty well about the "American Dream" of becoming rich, go ahead and keep dreaming, it is the riches club and you are not invited.

But they will use you as as what Stalin called a "useful idiot". Which kinda sums up the phenomena of foxnews fed working class folks bashing unions against their own and their families best interests imo.
.

The unions crap is a ruse. under leaner times unions have conceded plenty. Unions will continue to conceded since they have nothing to do if Big 3 fail. Problem is they are not getting any help from the top with execs living large while they are asked to suffer. With car ideas no one wants. With a brand tarnished by 20 years of bad reviews.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
I do not expect it to save a industry with poor management on the take. The lack of innovation, and of course the terribly bogged down unions and their political issues.

The unions have all but been taken over by what they started out against. It is a damn shame too, the whole lot of them need to be seriously shaken up. But blaming unions alone for this huge mess, or that the workers are at fault for demanding a decent wage is mind boggling that other working class folks give them crap for it.

I guess when you look at how mega rich management is getting and getting away with it, any opportunist worth his salt would side with management also.
It is all about getting rich in some peoples view, and a lot of people could care less how they get there. They just want in on the action.

George Carlin RIP said it pretty well about the "American Dream" of becoming rich, go ahead and keep dreaming, it is the riches club and you are not invited.

But they will use you as as what Stalin called a "useful idiot". Which kinda sums up the phenomena of foxnews fed working class folks bashing unions against their own and their families best interests imo.
.

The unions crap is a ruse. under leaner times unions have conceded plenty. Unions will continue to conceded since they have nothing to do if Big 3 fail. Problem is they are not getting any help from the top with execs living large while they are asked to suffer. With car ideas no one wants. With a brand tarnished by 20 years of bad reviews.

I would not call it a ruse. How many billions have the big 3 spent over the last several years on 100k buyouts on excess employees. It is a sad statement that it takes 100k buyout to get an employee to leave.

How many billions have been wasted over the past couple of decades paying people not to work.

The big 3 still have close to 50% market share, so they still are selling cars people want....

 

[Svnla]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Svnla
much other benefits (job bank, pension, retirees and dependents benefits) cost GM?

No one is saying GM employee salary/wage is 7x.xx per hour. It is the total "overall cost". Someone from accounting probably can explain better than I can.

I got you there, that was not what I was saying either, I was speaking of in the OP how much in real life those benefits + their 20 something an hour actually come out to, and it is nowhere near 70, actually it is a bit lower then what the foreign companies employees make. (in 2010)

Which is why I am saying that 70 is bunk.

I already provided you with link/source from reliable/trust news sources on the total cost of $7x.xx/hr.

Here is another one:
http://www.reuters.com/article.../idUSN0432128020071004

"The average UAW-represented GM assembly line worker makes just under $28 per hour now before health-care and other benefits that take total hourly labor costs to $73, the automaker has said.

By contrast, Toyota's average hourly cost for workers at its U.S. plants was under $48 per hour including benefits."

Bunk or not, your call. Like I said, I have a personal interest with the domestic auto industry and I like them to survive and prosper but we will see if they will pull throught or not.

 

[piasabird]

Just the hourly wage does not tell the whole story. They may be working on average 6 days a week, or averageing a certain amount of overtime, they may also be paid for meals when working overtime, or be paid transportation costs. So why not just publish how much money they actually get paid on average. Just publish the truth for once.

Mitt Romney estimated a labor cost of $2000.00 more than Toyota. Still dont know what he was counting. Maybe Toyota does not pay insurance or something.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
I do not expect it to save a industry with poor management on the take. The lack of innovation, and of course the terribly bogged down unions and their political issues.

The unions have all but been taken over by what they started out against. It is a damn shame too, the whole lot of them need to be seriously shaken up. But blaming unions alone for this huge mess, or that the workers are at fault for demanding a decent wage is mind boggling that other working class folks give them crap for it.

I guess when you look at how mega rich management is getting and getting away with it, any opportunist worth his salt would side with management also.
It is all about getting rich in some peoples view, and a lot of people could care less how they get there. They just want in on the action.

George Carlin RIP said it pretty well about the "American Dream" of becoming rich, go ahead and keep dreaming, it is the riches club and you are not invited.

But they will use you as as what Stalin called a "useful idiot". Which kinda sums up the phenomena of foxnews fed working class folks bashing unions against their own and their families best interests imo.
.

The unions crap is a ruse. under leaner times unions have conceded plenty. Unions will continue to conceded since they have nothing to do if Big 3 fail. Problem is they are not getting any help from the top with execs living large while they are asked to suffer. With car ideas no one wants. With a brand tarnished by 20 years of bad reviews.

I would not call it a ruse. How many billions have the big 3 spent over the last several years on 100k buyouts on excess employees. It is a sad statement that it takes 100k buyout to get an employee to leave.

How many billions have been wasted over the past couple of decades paying people not to work.

The big 3 still have close to 50% market share, so they still are selling cars people want....

Less than 50% domestically and worldwide is less than 20%. Just wait until this years numbers are out...will continue to decline only saved by lt truck sales and fleet.

This union thing has been beat to death and I'll just agree to disagree. IMO the unions have a binding contract the execs knew what they were signing (their mistake) compounded by failure to grow as a company (again I believe their mistake) forcing the company to go in the hole honoring those commitments.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Just the hourly wage does not tell the whole story. They may be working on average 6 days a week, or averageing a certain amount of overtime, they may also be paid for meals when working overtime, or be paid. So why not just publish how much money they actually get paid on average. Just publish the truth for once.

According to this they average over 300 hours of OT a year.

linkage

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
I do not expect it to save a industry with poor management on the take. The lack of innovation, and of course the terribly bogged down unions and their political issues.

The unions have all but been taken over by what they started out against. It is a damn shame too, the whole lot of them need to be seriously shaken up. But blaming unions alone for this huge mess, or that the workers are at fault for demanding a decent wage is mind boggling that other working class folks give them crap for it.

I guess when you look at how mega rich management is getting and getting away with it, any opportunist worth his salt would side with management also.
It is all about getting rich in some peoples view, and a lot of people could care less how they get there. They just want in on the action.

George Carlin RIP said it pretty well about the "American Dream" of becoming rich, go ahead and keep dreaming, it is the riches club and you are not invited.

But they will use you as as what Stalin called a "useful idiot". Which kinda sums up the phenomena of foxnews fed working class folks bashing unions against their own and their families best interests imo.
.

The unions crap is a ruse. under leaner times unions have conceded plenty. Unions will continue to conceded since they have nothing to do if Big 3 fail. Problem is they are not getting any help from the top with execs living large while they are asked to suffer. With car ideas no one wants. With a brand tarnished by 20 years of bad reviews.

I would not call it a ruse. How many billions have the big 3 spent over the last several years on 100k buyouts on excess employees. It is a sad statement that it takes 100k buyout to get an employee to leave.

How many billions have been wasted over the past couple of decades paying people not to work.

The big 3 still have close to 50% market share, so they still are selling cars people want....

Less than 50% domestically and worldwide is less than 20%. Just wait until this years numbers are out...will continue to decline only saved by lt truck sales and fleet.

This union thing has been beat to death and I'll just agree to disagree. IMO the unions have a binding contract the execs knew what they were signing (their mistake) compounded by failure to grow as a company (again I believe their mistake) forcing the company to go in the hole honoring those commitments.

So tell me, would it have been a bigger mistake to not sign contracts and have a strike, which could have killed both UAW and one or more of the big 3? The reality is that big 3 have been trapped by an oppressive union.

But as you said, we will have to agree to disagree...

 

[Svnla]

Originally posted by: charrison
The big 3 still have close to 50% market share, so they still are selling cars people want....

Did you know that in its heyday, just GM, yes that one, had OVER 50% of market share in the US alone by itself?

Now, well, about 20% and dropping.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Svnla

Originally posted by: charrison
The big 3 still have close to 50% market share, so they still are selling cars people want....

Did you know that in its heyday, just GM, yes that one, had OVER 50% of market share in the US alone by itself?

Now, well, about 20% and dropping.

I am quite aware of that. But the point is, the big 3 still hold about 50%, which is not bad for companies that sell things that no one wants.

 

[woodie1]

Originally posted by: Svnla

Originally posted by: charrison
The big 3 still have close to 50% market share, so they still are selling cars people want....

Did you know that in its heyday, just GM, yes that one, had OVER 50% of market share in the US alone by itself?

Now, well, about 20% and dropping.

Did you know that in the 1950s Chevy alone had over 50% of the domestic market.

 

[Zebo]

Why don't you ever call to abrogate all contracts for current and former Big 3 execs? Of course theirs are shielded from Big 3's performance - away in a private bank or third party annuity unlike the workers who lose it all should Big 3 fail.

 

[piasabird]

Well 300 hours of overtime at 1.5 times the pay is around $12,600.00. However, that is only 6 hours of overtime a week. Seems kind of hard to believe sometimes that they only average 6 hours of overtime per week. You have everyone out on vaction, sick days, and plant maintenance shutdowns. It might be that they have to ask the most senior people about overtime first, so they may have to pay the overtime at higher rates of pay. Having worked at a factory before, I could see that.

One other thing I have seen is a work schedule with 4 rotating shifts, where you work 6 days on two weeks and 5 days on one week. Plus you might be paid shift premiums.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
A few paragraphs of a almost word for word talking point with no data is not very compelling.

Not like your link is any more compelling.

Take all the money that is spent on employee wages & benefits, divided by the total number of hours worked, that comes out to ~$75. Unless you want to argue against the basic fundamentals of mathematics... But I don't think you'll get anywhere arguing 2+2!=4.

 

[cubby1223]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Why don't you ever call to abrogate all contracts for current and former Big 3 execs? Of course theirs are shielded from Big 3's performance - away in a private bank or third party annuity unlike the workers who lose it all should Big 3 fail.

Why can't we do both? The problem is the defenders who say that since there is not a single fault in the auto companies, we thus cannot lay blame on anyone. :roll:

GM's CEO makes $2-8m depending on the google link. Exactly what, doesn't matter. GM is in dept by what was it, $40+billion or something? The CEO & executives could be working for free and GM would still be in the shitter.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: woodie1
Did you know that in the 1950s Chevy alone had over 50% of the domestic market.

Lol, that's not even CLOSE to being true!

Ford and Chevy used to run nearly neck and neck in the 1950's, with Ford outselling Chevy in 1950 and 1957 -- that's Ford alone, w/o Mercury or Lincoln.

By the learly 1960's, GM had 55-60% of the market (all brands) and there was serious discussion at that time in the justice dept. about treating GM as a monopoly and breaking it up.

 

[Svnla]

Originally posted by: woodie1

Originally posted by: Svnla

Originally posted by: charrison
The big 3 still have close to 50% market share, so they still are selling cars people want....

Did you know that in its heyday, just GM, yes that one, had OVER 50% of market share in the US alone by itself?

Now, well, about 20% and dropping.

Did you know that in the 1950s Chevy alone had over 50% of the domestic market.

Just the Chevy division? Do you have link/source for that info? I know the whole GM was doing very well in the 50/60 but hard to believe that just Chevy.

Edit: Heh, look like Perk got the same question/red flag.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Svnla

Originally posted by: woodie1

Originally posted by: Svnla

Originally posted by: charrison
The big 3 still have close to 50% market share, so they still are selling cars people want....

Did you know that in its heyday, just GM, yes that one, had OVER 50% of market share in the US alone by itself?

Now, well, about 20% and dropping.

Did you know that in the 1950s Chevy alone had over 50% of the domestic market.

Just the Chevy division? Do you have link/source for that info? I know the whole GM was doing very well in the 50/60 but hard to believe that just Chevy.

Edit: Heh, look like Perk got the same question/red flag.

It's not even CLOSE to being true. Read my post just above yours. In two years in the fifties, Ford outsold Chevy. Do you think just those two brand had 100% PLUS of the market?

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: cubby1223

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
A few paragraphs of a almost word for word talking point with no data is not very compelling.

Not like your link is any more compelling.

Take all the money that is spent on employee wages & benefits, divided by the total number of hours worked, that comes out to ~$75. Unless you want to argue against the basic fundamentals of mathematics... But I don't think you'll get anywhere arguing 2+2!=4.

You didn't read his article, did you cubby? Or is it that you just didn't understand it?

 

[Strk]

Why do people still argue the $73? Everyone acknowledged GM, Ford and the UAW went overboard with benefits. Yes, they're in trouble because of past contractul obligations, but the whole reason for the buyouts was to get people away from it and reduce their obligations. Add to that, the new contract eliminates a lot of the old one's problems. The jobs bank now has strict restrictions (before you could stay indefinitely, now, if you turn down a job within 50 miles or four anywhere in the country, you're out). The UAW will now administer their benefits and the pay is reduced. GM (they're the only ones who have signed a new contract, I think) still pays more, but with the retiree costs, it's down to about $60. They also made it so GM no longer pays UAW wages to the people who clean the place (seriously, how did they get that one to pass?). GM and UAW also agreed to eliminate certain job class restrictions.

Also, GM alone has reduced its workforce by close to 40,000 hourly workers. That's a lot less people they're going to pay.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
THe median hourly wage for the US in 2007 was $15 an hour. These people are making almost double that amount and we are suppose to feel sorry for them?

Add in all their benefits, vacation time, holiday pay and the nice cushy environment that the union creates for them and I think they have it pretty good.

Nobody is feeling sorry for them but there are those in this thread who seem to be envious of them and actually begrudge them because they make a decent wage.

That said with the Big Three in trouble it's important that the UAW make concessions just so their membership will have job to go to in the future and if that means cutting back on benefits then that's what has to happen. Of course in Management expects the Unions to work with them they have to make changes themselves.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Zebo
UHC won't save Big 3's hide. It's a fundamental problem of inferior products no one in their right mind is buying.

This is another myth that is perpetuated here ad-nauseam. If you don't like or want their products, don't buy them. Plenty of people are buying their products and the figures below are current as of October 1 of this year.

9.3 million people worldwide bought GM vehicles last year. That?s more vehicles than any other automaker in the world sold. And in the U.S., which is the world?s largest market, GM sold more vehicles than any other manufacturer in 2007, and it has sold more than any other automaker to date in 2008.

In 2008, the Chevy Malibu was named North American Car of the Year, and the Cadillac CTS was Motor Trend?s 2008 Car of the Year. In 2007, the Saturn Aura and Chevy Silverado won North American Car and Truck of the year. Those awards are given and judged by automotive journalists.

Customers have responded just as enthusiastically as the critics. Although total U.S. vehicle sales are down almost 15% so far this year (through October), a number of GM cars and crossovers have enjoyed significant sales increases:

Chevy Malibu +39%
Pontiac Vibe +36%
Pontiac G6 + 4%
Cadillac CTS +15%
Saturn Aura +7%
GMC Acadia +2%
Buick Enclave +88%
October 1, 2008

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Why don't you ever call to abrogate all contracts for current and former Big 3 execs? Of course theirs are shielded from Big 3's performance - away in a private bank or third party annuity unlike the workers who lose it all should Big 3 fail.

Guess what, I have no problem getting rid of non performing executives. The only exec worth keeping right now is the ford ceo. He seems to be a doing decent job turning ford around. He too some pretty big steps while the economy was still good.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
THe median hourly wage for the US in 2007 was $15 an hour. These people are making almost double that amount and we are suppose to feel sorry for them?

Add in all their benefits, vacation time, holiday pay and the nice cushy environment that the union creates for them and I think they have it pretty good.

Nobody is feeling sorry for them but there are those in this thread who seem to be envious of them and actually begrudge them because they make a decent wage.

That said with the Big Three in trouble it's important that the UAW make concessions just so their membership will have job to go to in the future and if that means cutting back on benefits then that's what has to happen. Of course in Management expects the Unions to work with them they have to make changes themselves.

I believe the unions would make more concessions, as long as they are temporary, and given back when the bottom line is solid again. For the teams of lawyers to agree on the contract language that would stipulate something like that could take longer than the big three have.