Ann Coulter attacks SC Governor Nikki Haley for flag issue because she's an immigrant

[zinfamous]

[I HATE FILTHY WHITE PEOPLE YET I PROFIT FROM THEIR EVIL COUNTRY AND INFERIOR CULTURE BECAUSE MY BELOVED COUNTRY ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME]

Do you ever post anything here that isn't full of wise and beautiful woman?

 

[TheSlamma]

Do you guys feel that anyone born in the US is an "American?"

Personally, I don't. Identification with a country comes with lineage IMO - of course, I will get raked over the coals for saying this but I've felt the same way despite being born here.

all of our lineage

 

[shira]

What does me agreeing with her, or disagreeing with her have to do with the left berating her?

Nothing.

If memory serves, you have an abundant history of "berating" liberals who express positions you disagree with. Are you telling us that your own behavior is out of line?

 

[Perknose]

Mann...

[...]

...aka rice bag.

Do0d, true pride in one's heritage, no matter how any one of us chooses to define that for ourselves, is a positive thing that quietly abides in the heart. It's not the caustic bile that you spew, delivered like a whiny, jealous brat.

Listen to yourself. You portray only envy, not strength. You make yourself small trying to belittle others.

Like the rest of here in the USA, you are the beneficiary of a bunch of pretty far seeing Englshmen who wrote the living hell out of our Constitution. So, yeah, we've spent the following 200 plus years trying to live up to it. And, yeah, we fucked over red people and black people and yellow people and brown people and plenty of white people along the way.

But, for all its past sins and present flaws, the Republic still stands, and our big, dumb land still holds opportunity like a beacon. Isn't that why you're here, too?

Be glad that 150 plus years ago Abraham Lincoln saved the Union. For if we were not still the United States of America, some time after winning WWII, Adolf and the boyz would have started carving some more lebensraum out of your beloved Indian sub-continent.

So all you racists, whether it be you or Ann Coulter or a bunch of retrograde "southern pride" asshats, can suck my yeoman Yankee dick.

I'll stand with Stephen Vincent Benet's Daniel Webster:

Yes, Dan'l Webster's dead ----- or, at least, they buried him. But every time there's a thunderstorm around Marshfield, they say you can hear his rolling voice in the hollows of the sky. And they say that if you go to his grave and speak loud and clear, "Dan'l Webster ----- Dan'l Webster!" the ground'll begin to shiver and the trees begin to shake. And after a while you'll hear a deep voice saying, "Neighbor, how stands the Union?" Then you better answer the Union stands as she stood, rock-bottomed and copper-sheathed, one and indivisible, or he's liable to rear right out of the ground. At least, that's what I was told when I was a youngster.

 

[Baasha]

all of our lineage

LOL.. true.

Do0d, true pride in one's heritage, no matter how any one of us chooses to define that for ourselves, is a positive thing that quietly abides in the heart. It's not the caustic bile that you spew, delivered like a whiny, jealous brat.

Listen to yourself. You portray only envy, not strength. You make yourself small trying to belittle others.

Like the rest of here in the USA, you are the beneficiary of a bunch of pretty far seeing Englshmen who wrote the living hell out of our Constitution. So, yeah, we've spent the following 200 plus years trying to live up to it. And, yeah, we fucked over red people and black people and yellow people and brown people and plenty of white people along the way.

But, for all its past sins and present flaws, the Republic still stands, and our big, dumb land still holds opportunity like a beacon. Isn't that why you're here, too?

Be glad that 150 plus years ago Abraham Lincoln saved the Union. For if we were not still the United States of America, some time after winning WWII, Adolf and the boyz would have started carving some more lebensraum out of your beloved Indian sub-continent.

So all you racists, whether it be you or Ann Coulter or a bunch of retrograde "southern pride" asshats, can suck my yeoman Yankee dick.

I'll stand with Stephen Vincent Benet's Daniel Webster:

Sigh.. I don't lay claim to being diplomatic or soft in speech (on online forums), but it is ridiculous of you to call me a racist.

You guys need to understand that not everything revolves around 'race.'

There used to be a time when race defined the culture - wherever you were from, that's what you were like. I found that America is unique in that regard; one's race does not preclude one from being 'American.' However, in my real life experiences (business dealings, academia etc.), most whites in America, sometimes unintentionally, feel that only they are truly 'American.' This is true of both liberals and conservatives alike IME.

Although born here, I do not identify with this culture for a multitude of reasons. One, my community (I don't speak for all Indians), came to America for economic opportunity and economic opportunity alone. We are NOT refugees, derelicts, or runaways that came to the US seeking refuge. Our community still feels and prefers India and living in India any day of the week were it not for the lack of economic opportunity. We are a unique lot in terms of immigrants to the US. If the same economic surroundings of Silicon Valley etc. were present in India, we would move to India in a heartbeat. If there was better economic opportunity in Antarctica, we would move there. So get off your high horse about this silly notion that all immigrants came here to suck the dick of Uncle Sam. That is in fact why we ensconce ourselves in our 'community centers' etc. to make sure we don't lose our connection to the motherland.

Racists like Ann Coulter think all immigrants come here fleeing "persecution" and other "hardships." That may be the case for many immigrant communities including yours but it is most definitely NOT the case for us.

So it is quite silly, as many in the Indian community have shown this week, for Indians to bend over backwards to "assimilate" into a foreign culture and identity - something that is also inimical to India and Hindus; Piyush Jindal is an absolute embarrassment to the Indian community in the US. Nikki Haley is not as bad but she is not good by any measure. Read this article on Jindal and see the situation explained well.

It is quite telling because the Indian diaspora chose between three countries; US, UK, and Australia. Economic opportunity combined with the English language, those were the three places to go to to materially prosper due to the unfortunate situation India was in several decades ago as I explained in some other threads (India was the richest nation on the planet until 1830).

Going to the UK or Australia instead of the US was just serendipitous; not some preconceived notion of historical precedence by some great minds like Hamilton, Jefferson, and Adams et.al. My family could've moved to the UK or Australia (as some of my relatives had) in the 1960s instead of the US. It is just a coincidence that they decided to the come to the US and to the Bay Area at that.

You still haven't addressed my question; do you think someone born in America automatically becomes an 'American' (other than officially on documents)?

Present a cogent argument to buttress your point of view instead of lambasting me and calling me names.

 

[Meghan54]

LOL.. true.



Sigh.. I don't lay claim to being diplomatic or soft in speech (on online forums), but it is ridiculous of you to call me a racist.

You guys need to understand that not everything revolves around 'race.'

There used to be a time when race defined the culture - wherever you were from, that's what you were like. I found that America is unique in that regard; one's race does not preclude one from being 'American.' However, in my real life experiences (business dealings, academia etc.), most whites in America, sometimes unintentionally, feel that only they are truly 'American.' This is true of both liberals and conservatives alike IME.

Although born here, I do not identify with this culture for a multitude of reasons. One, my community (I don't speak for all Indians), came to America for economic opportunity and economic opportunity alone. We are NOT refugees, derelicts, or runaways that came to the US seeking refuge. Our community still feels and prefers India and living in India any day of the week were it not for the lack of economic opportunity. We are a unique lot in terms of immigrants to the US. If the same economic surroundings of Silicon Valley etc. were present in India, we would move to India in a heartbeat. If there was better economic opportunity in Antarctica, we would move there. So get off your high horse about this silly notion that all immigrants came here to suck the dick of Uncle Sam. That is in fact why we ensconce ourselves in our 'community centers' etc. to make sure we don't lose our connection to the motherland.

Racists like Ann Coulter think all immigrants come here fleeing "persecution" and other "hardships." That may be the case for many immigrant communities including yours but it is most definitely NOT the case for us.

So it is quite silly, as many in the Indian community have shown this week, for Indians to bend over backwards to "assimilate" into a foreign culture and identity - something that is also inimical to India and Hindus; Piyush Jindal is an absolute embarrassment to the Indian community in the US. Nikki Haley is not as bad but she is not good by any measure. Read this article on Jindal and see the situation explained well.

It is quite telling because the Indian diaspora chose between three countries; US, UK, and Australia. Economic opportunity combined with the English language, those were the three places to go to to materially prosper due to the unfortunate situation India was in several decades ago as I explained in some other threads (India was the richest nation on the planet until 1830).

Going to the UK or Australia instead of the US was just serendipitous; not some preconceived notion of historical precedence by some great minds like Hamilton, Jefferson, and Adams et.al. My family could've moved to the UK or Australia (as some of my relatives had) in the 1960s instead of the US. It is just a coincidence that they decided to the come to the US and to the Bay Area at that.

You still haven't addressed my question; do you think someone born in America automatically becomes an 'American' (other than officially on documents)?

Present a cogent argument to buttress your point of view instead of lambasting me and calling me names.

We have indoor plumbing which India seems to refuse to learn to use? Or we bury our dead instead of "flushing" them down the river, a river also being used as a bath tub?

 

[ivwshane]

LOL.. true.



Sigh.. I don't lay claim to being diplomatic or soft in speech (on online forums), but it is ridiculous of you to call me a racist.

You guys need to understand that not everything revolves around 'race.'

There used to be a time when race defined the culture - wherever you were from, that's what you were like. I found that America is unique in that regard; one's race does not preclude one from being 'American.' However, in my real life experiences (business dealings, academia etc.), most whites in America, sometimes unintentionally, feel that only they are truly 'American.' This is true of both liberals and conservatives alike IME.

Although born here, I do not identify with this culture for a multitude of reasons. One, my community (I don't speak for all Indians), came to America for economic opportunity and economic opportunity alone. We are NOT refugees, derelicts, or runaways that came to the US seeking refuge. Our community still feels and prefers India and living in India any day of the week were it not for the lack of economic opportunity. We are a unique lot in terms of immigrants to the US. If the same economic surroundings of Silicon Valley etc. were present in India, we would move to India in a heartbeat. If there was better economic opportunity in Antarctica, we would move there. So get off your high horse about this silly notion that all immigrants came here to suck the dick of Uncle Sam. That is in fact why we ensconce ourselves in our 'community centers' etc. to make sure we don't lose our connection to the motherland.

Racists like Ann Coulter think all immigrants come here fleeing "persecution" and other "hardships." That may be the case for many immigrant communities including yours but it is most definitely NOT the case for us.

So it is quite silly, as many in the Indian community have shown this week, for Indians to bend over backwards to "assimilate" into a foreign culture and identity - something that is also inimical to India and Hindus; Piyush Jindal is an absolute embarrassment to the Indian community in the US. Nikki Haley is not as bad but she is not good by any measure. Read this article on Jindal and see the situation explained well.

It is quite telling because the Indian diaspora chose between three countries; US, UK, and Australia. Economic opportunity combined with the English language, those were the three places to go to to materially prosper due to the unfortunate situation India was in several decades ago as I explained in some other threads (India was the richest nation on the planet until 1830).

Going to the UK or Australia instead of the US was just serendipitous; not some preconceived notion of historical precedence by some great minds like Hamilton, Jefferson, and Adams et.al. My family could've moved to the UK or Australia (as some of my relatives had) in the 1960s instead of the US. It is just a coincidence that they decided to the come to the US and to the Bay Area at that.

You still haven't addressed my question; do you think someone born in America automatically becomes an 'American' (other than officially on documents)?

Present a cogent argument to buttress your point of view instead of lambasting me and calling me names.

Well, based on your post and attitude, the answer would be no. You appear to be the leech the right is always complaining about and you are certainly the exact type of "immigrant" (according to ann coulter), that ann rallies against and has written about.

It's a shame that you appear to hold disdain for the country that has allowed you to be economically successful while simultaneously calling jindall an embarrassment to the Indian community while you and your family look at India from afar and do nothing to help your "preferred" country. But I guess that's the calling of a multinational, no local pride and no personal investment in their "home country". Neither of which requires one to "assimilate" btw😉

Then again there is no such thing as a definition, other than a legal one, that defines what it is to be an american. So even a person with despicable views or one who holds America in contempt can still be American. That's the beauty of America though, so long as you follow the law, you can hold whatever views you like.

 

[Moonbeam]

Mann Cunter's verbal diarrhea again.

However, I do have a question for the folks of this forum.

Do you guys feel that anyone born in the US is an "American?"

Personally, I don't. Identification with a country comes with lineage IMO - of course, I will get raked over the coals for saying this but I've felt the same way despite being born here.

A good counter example is Rudyard Kipling - the shithead who wrote "The White Man's Burden."

This sack of shit was born in India - LOL...Do you guys think any Indian considers that bible-thumping rat "Indian?" HELL NO!

Then, why should peasants like Mann Cunter consider Namrata (Nikki) Randhawa (Haley) "American?" Of course, she changed her name to sound more westernized and also converted to the desert cult of christianity. Is that enough to be considered an 'American?' Apparently not in this case!

Just being born in a certain place does not make one identify with that country/culture. It takes generations of living there and becoming deracinated from one's roots (home country).

If you guys study the history of Whiteness - yes, such a subject exists - the original invaders who considered themselves 'White' and 'American' were the English, rotten teeth and all.

The Irish had to struggle in the beginning to get accepted but they eventually did. Blacks are still not considered fully 'American' due to the hyphenation of their identity as 'African-American' whereas European-Americans are not called as such.

Same thing happened to the Jews who were not considered 'White' or 'American' until the early part of the 20th Century (really until WWII).

That's why Piyush (Bobby) Jindal will never be considered an 'American' by cunts like Mann Cunter despite converting to that zombie worshiping cult, eschewing his roots, and pretending to be an extreme bible-thumping, boy-humping fundie.

I, for one, am doing my part in telling every Indian in America to NOT give a penny to muppets like Jindal - the converted coolie aka rice bag.

The ugliness that you see is within you. There is only love. The need to assert seniority of this or that exists only in reaction to the absence of real self satisfaction, the source of real love. Whatever the force you put into the word 'wise and beautiful woman' you express because yourself feel that way and do not know it.

The aim of all real religion is to remove your self hate, not to cover it with the need to express your superiority.

 

[bshole]

LOL.. true.



Sigh.. I don't lay claim to being diplomatic or soft in speech (on online forums), but it is ridiculous of you to call me a racist.

You guys need to understand that not everything revolves around 'race.'

There used to be a time when race defined the culture - wherever you were from, that's what you were like. I found that America is unique in that regard; one's race does not preclude one from being 'American.' However, in my real life experiences (business dealings, academia etc.), most whites in America, sometimes unintentionally, feel that only they are truly 'American.' This is true of both liberals and conservatives alike IME.

Although born here, I do not identify with this culture for a multitude of reasons. One, my community (I don't speak for all Indians), came to America for economic opportunity and economic opportunity alone. We are NOT refugees, derelicts, or runaways that came to the US seeking refuge. Our community still feels and prefers India and living in India any day of the week were it not for the lack of economic opportunity. We are a unique lot in terms of immigrants to the US. If the same economic surroundings of Silicon Valley etc. were present in India, we would move to India in a heartbeat. If there was better economic opportunity in Antarctica, we would move there. So get off your high horse about this silly notion that all immigrants came here to suck the dick of Uncle Sam. That is in fact why we ensconce ourselves in our 'community centers' etc. to make sure we don't lose our connection to the motherland.

Racists like Ann Coulter think all immigrants come here fleeing "persecution" and other "hardships." That may be the case for many immigrant communities including yours but it is most definitely NOT the case for us.

So it is quite silly, as many in the Indian community have shown this week, for Indians to bend over backwards to "assimilate" into a foreign culture and identity - something that is also inimical to India and Hindus; Piyush Jindal is an absolute embarrassment to the Indian community in the US. Nikki Haley is not as bad but she is not good by any measure. Read this article on Jindal and see the situation explained well.

It is quite telling because the Indian diaspora chose between three countries; US, UK, and Australia. Economic opportunity combined with the English language, those were the three places to go to to materially prosper due to the unfortunate situation India was in several decades ago as I explained in some other threads (India was the richest nation on the planet until 1830).

Going to the UK or Australia instead of the US was just serendipitous; not some preconceived notion of historical precedence by some great minds like Hamilton, Jefferson, and Adams et.al. My family could've moved to the UK or Australia (as some of my relatives had) in the 1960s instead of the US. It is just a coincidence that they decided to the come to the US and to the Bay Area at that.

You still haven't addressed my question; do you think someone born in America automatically becomes an 'American' (other than officially on documents)?

Present a cogent argument to buttress your point of view instead of lambasting me and calling me names.

I take it you are a Brahmin; I sincerely doubt any Untouchables would ever move back to India even at gunpoint. Indian culture is probably the nadir of all cultures in the world. A culture based on the absolute repression of persons because of their birth parents alone. That is the most fucked up ugly philosophy around.

More disgusting than that, they are bringing this hateful philosophy to the Western world. It is shocking to me that any Western nation would tolerate this shit in any shape or form. It is a blight on civilization and needs to be completely and utterly annihilated.

So you like your economic opportunity in America but you prefer the REPRESSION and human rights degradation of your home country? THEN MOVE THE FUCK BACK! I will pitch in for the plane ticket.

If it were up to me, only the Untouchables would be afforded immigration to the United States. The hateful people in the upper castes would be absolutely excluded. It is like inviting White Supremacists to our country. It makes no sense on any level.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...-called-a-disease-worse-than-racism-1.3090441

 

[Baasha]

Well, based on your post and attitude, the answer would be no. You appear to be the leech the right is always complaining about and you are certainly the exact type of "immigrant" (according to ann coulter), that ann rallies against and has written about.

It's a shame that you appear to hold disdain for the country that has allowed you to be economically successful while simultaneously calling jindall an embarrassment to the Indian community while you and your family look at India from afar and do nothing to help your "preferred" country. But I guess that's the calling of a multinational, no local pride and no personal investment in their "home country". Neither of which requires one to "assimilate" btw😉

Then again there is no such thing as a definition, other than a legal one, that defines what it is to be an american. So even a person with despicable views or one who holds America in contempt can still be American. That's the beauty of America though, so long as you follow the law, you can hold whatever views you like.

You are utterly ignorant of the situation of Indian Americans - read the PEW report on Indians, especially Hindus, in the US (not to mention the same community in the UK/Australia).

Indians are the antipode of the hordes of Europeans who brought death and disease to this continent. In terms of education, economic prosperity, family values etc. The facts speak for themselves. Of course, there is a subset of Indian immigrants who came to the US under a persecution complex, mostly anti-Indian converted rice bags - Jindal is an exception because despite being successful economically and academically, he knew/knows that he will get nowhere in this country without proclaiming to be a staunch zombie-worshiper - hence his conversion to that desert cult christianity.

It was a politically adept move, despite claiming to convert in his youth. He does not represent Indians in America because of his attitude and so-called 'values', something that is opposed to most Indians who are in the US with regards to social conservatism and economic policies.

Why are Indians in America so successful? It is simply because there is a meritocracy here, much more so than in other countries. That is the only reason Indians, not the rice bag converts, who want to come to the US.

When India was a meritocracy it too was the most successful place on the planet until the early 1800s.

Either way, you have no knowledge of what my family does or is doing - part of the reason why I don't identify with the hedonistic and spiritually bankrupt "culture" of the west is because of my connections to India.

Just because your ancestors that fled whatever hole they did in Europe doesn't mean all immigrants are that way. Plus, you had nothing to write home about with the 'culture' in the old countries as peasants who were scrounging out a living - it's easier to genocide, steal, and take over other people's land and gold and then turn around and call it a 'civilizing mission.' 😉

Of course there isn't a legal definition of what constitutes an American, Indian, etc. other than officially. The people decide what constitutes a person of that nation.

The end result is that most of you feel what I stated in my earlier post - that only European Americans are 'real Americans' (oh, the travesty).

The ugliness that you see is within you. There is only love. The need to assert seniority of this or that exists only in reaction to the absence of real self satisfaction, the source of real love. Whatever the force you put into the word 'wise and beautiful woman' you express because yourself feel that way and do not know it.

The aim of all real religion is to remove your self hate, not to cover it with the need to express your superiority.

Your philosophizing would be more useful to the "USA USA USA" christian nationalists who are ignorant about the trash that is their society and vacuous inanity that forms their so-called worldview of 'American Exceptionalism.'

I take it you are a Brahmin; I sincerely doubt any Untouchables would ever move back to India even at gunpoint. Indian culture is probably the nadir of all cultures in the world. A culture based on the absolute repression of persons because of their birth parents alone. That is the most fucked up ugly philosophy around.

More disgusting than that, they are bringing this hateful philosophy to the Western world. It is shocking to me that any Western nation would tolerate this shit in any shape or form. It is a blight on civilization and needs to be completely and utterly annihilated.

So you like your economic opportunity in America but you prefer the REPRESSION and human rights degradation of your home country? THEN MOVE THE FUCK BACK! I will pitch in for the plane ticket.

If it were up to me, only the Untouchables would be afforded immigration to the United States. The hateful people in the upper castes would be absolutely excluded. It is like inviting White Supremacists to our country. It makes no sense on any level.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...-called-a-disease-worse-than-racism-1.3090441

Your frothy-mouthed blabbering gives away your vapid ignorance of India. Learning about the 'caste system' from untouchables is akin to learning Western history from the Taliban. 🙄

Untouchables are not restricted to India. 😉

The fact that we have to wear your stupid clothing and speak some pidgin mleccha tongue is bad enough. Thank the Gods that we don't have to eat the trash you call "food" and listen to the noise you call music. Indians didn't come here to mingle with shitheads like Ann Coulter. Making money is the singular reason most Indians are here.

It is really tough living a disciplined life as a Brahmin in a land of untouchables. Indians have civilized some aspects of Silicon Valley by teaching these flesh-eating, bible-thumping 'people' how to meditate, do yoga, and learn vegetarianism.

India is the zenith of all cultures; she conquered all of Asia without sending a single soldier across her territory. The West is the nadir of all cultures due to the immense genocide, theft, and atrocities committed (and continue to commit) on Native Americans, Blacks, Hispanics, and other minorities.

With a long history of racial violence, the US has no business talking about 'untouchability.'

India will gain its true place in the world - as Vishwaguru - it has been following western 'values' and that is why it has been in such doldrums for so long.

 

[ivwshane]

More straw man and hypocrisy please😀

Lol! For not being a racist you sure sound like one! What color are your hoods in your klan? White supremacist, Muslim extremist, and now you, you all sound the same and spout the same nonsense and the world continues to move on as they laugh at you.

You are right about India though, they will be a great country once again, just as soon as more pieces of shit like yourself leave the country like your family did. India like most other enlightened nations will awake slowly while pushing out the trash like yourself that has plagued it's country. I welcome that day😉 I'm not too worried about you though, bigots like you will always find a home, bigots always have their arms wide open for other bigots.

 

[WelshBloke]

When India was a meritocracy it too was the most successful place on the planet until the early 1800s.

Would you mind expounding on meritocracies with respect to the caste system as they seem fairly mutually exclusive.

 

[Mai72]

Can't... Can't we all just get along? 🙁

 

[trenchfoot]

You are utterly ignorant of the situation of Indian Americans - read the PEW report on Indians, especially Hindus, in the US (not to mention the same community in the UK/Australia).

Indians are the antipode of the hordes of Europeans who brought death and disease to this continent. In terms of education, economic prosperity, family values etc. The facts speak for themselves. Of course, there is a subset of Indian immigrants who came to the US under a persecution complex, mostly anti-Indian converted rice bags - Jindal is an exception because despite being successful economically and academically, he knew/knows that he will get nowhere in this country without proclaiming to be a staunch zombie-worshiper - hence his conversion to that desert cult christianity.


snip -

I'm just guessing here based on what little you've posted so far, so correct me if I'm wrong.

It really sounds like you got a raw deal from where you grew up here and at your workplace. 😉

And what somewhat amazes me is that even though you were born (and raised?) here, it seems like you were very sheltered and insulated away from the host culture to the point where you were virtually living in India even though you were (raised?) right here in the USA.

I admire one's desire to keep their heritage alive, but that shouldn't get in the way of successfully assimilating into the host culture of which you seem to be having problems with.

Bringing India with you into America to make yourself feel more comfortable and to give yourself advantages that you wouldn't otherwise have is probably not going to work in your favor, especially if you display the same attitude at work as you do here in this forum. 🙂

 

[zinfamous]

When India was a meritocracy? when wasn't it?

utter dreck. Genomic population data shows that the caste system in India dates back at least 2k years and more.
http://www.livescience.com/38751-genetic-study-reveals-caste-system-origins.html
fantasy history.

India is the antidote to what? certainly not cholera and syphilis.

seems 3-4k years of meritocracy hasn't done all that much for you.

 

[Baasha]

Would you mind expounding on meritocracies with respect to the caste system as they seem fairly mutually exclusive.

Sure, I'll try to explain it briefly and then expand on it if needed.

The 'Caste System' of India, of Hinduism specifically, is called Varnashrama Dharma. The word 'Varnashrama' being a conjugation of Varna and Ashrama; the former meaning 'innate combination of the 3 gunas' and the latter meaning 'stage' (or cycle) in this context. Sanskrit is a highly contextual language - for instance, the word 'Agni' has 36 different meanings, each one with its own context. 'Dharma' too has many different meanings based on context and in this case, it is loosely translated as 'law' for social order.

I should also note here that Sanskrit, as developed and codified by the polymath grammarian Panini in the Ashtadhyayi, is a highly formulated and 'perfected' language based on context-free grammar - something that Backus and Naur rediscovered in the mid-20th century that became the basis for all computer languages! Panini, who wrote his works in the 4th century BCE in Gandhara (present day 'Kandahar' Afghanistan), invented this seminal context-free grammar without which computer languages would be impossible.

Going back to the Varnashrama Dharma (VD), it has two components - 'Varna' the latent tendencies based on the 3 modes of nature - Sattva, Rajas, and Tamas and 'Jati' or vocational occupation (usually based on family traditions).

Here is a little description of the 3 Gunas:

Samkhya school of Hinduism
In Samkhya philosophy, a guṇa is one of three "tendencies, qualities": sattva, rajas and tamas. This category of qualities have been widely adopted by various schools of Hinduism for categorizing behavior and natural phenomena. The three qualities are:

Sattva is the quality of balance, harmony, goodness, purity, universalizing, holistic, constructive, creative, building, positive, peaceful, virtuous.

Rajas is the quality of passion, activity, neither good nor bad and sometimes either, self centeredness, egoistic, individualizing, driven, moving, dynamic.

Tamas is the quality of imbalance, disorder, chaos, anxiety, impure, destructive, delusion, negative, dull or inactive, apathy, inertia or lethargy, violent, vicious, ignorant.

In Indian philosophy, these qualities are not considered as present in either-or fashion. Rather, everyone and everything has all three, only in different proportions and in different contexts.The living being or substance is viewed as the net result of the joint effect of these three qualities.

So, in VD, Varna is determined by three things; Janma (birth i.e. lineage), Karma (conscious action), and Guna (as described above). This is further combined with Jati to create the person's 'place' in society if you will.

One of the biggest misunderstandings of VD is that it is NOT hierarchical - this is solely the fault of the European understanding of VD when they first came into contact with it several centuries ago (Germans, Portugese, and British). In fact, the word 'caste' itself is Portugese in origin ('casta').

So, a person's 'caste' is determined by several factors and NOT just birth. The 'birth only' aspect came into prominence a few centuries ago (~ 1700s) due to the rapid decline of Hindu society, economic destruction, and abolishment of the Hindu educational system (gurukula).

There are four (4) Varnas but thousands of Jatis.

The four Varnas are:

1.) Brahmin - scholars, priests, and advisors - knowledge
2.) Kshatriyas - rulers (kings, emperors, politicians etc.) - policy
3.) Vaishyas - traders (merchants, businessmen etc.) - economy
4.) Sudras - laborers (masons etc.) - labor

These 4 were/are not hierarchical. The very fact that Brahmins were/are respected is because of pursuit of knowledge and a self-disciplined lifestyle.

VD became ossified and people were kept down - this is not the fault of VD but the extenuating circumstances of India at that time. VD is fluid, nobody is 'stuck' or 'frozen' into their 'caste.' One's birth, character, and action determine what Varna they are. Their 'Jati' or vocation determines their character and actions in the future (similar to "Show me who your friends are and I'll show you who you are.").

The fact that VD was/is fluid is the greatest system of social order that has enabled the myriad contributions to mankind and civilization from Hindu culture - mathematics, philosophy, language, literature, art, science, dance etc. etc.

So when one looks at VD with a hierarchical lens, it presents a totally distorted view and is rife with misunderstanding.

Some examples of supposed 'low caste' people being revered in India:

1.) Valmiki (author of the Ramayana) - was born a highway robber (aka untouchable) but became a maharishi (great sage) due to his penance, meditation, yoga, and study. He is worshiped as the Adi-Kavi or 'original poet'. More about Valmiki here.
2.) Vishwamitra - a Kshatriya (king) who through penance also became a maharishi
3.) Vyasa (author of Mahabharath) - born to a sage and unwed fisherwoman (the woman was not ostracized despite having sex outside the institution of marriage - such was the freedom of women in India in those days) - he too is worshiped as a sage of great intellect

There are umpteen others who have moved through the Varnas in one lifetime itself. The goal is to eventually cease to be stuck in the cycle of birth and death (Samsara).

A modern day example is Narendra Modi - born as a 'so-called' low caste person but through his hard work and enormous self-discipline, is revered more than most - he lives a Brahminical lifestyle - but is now the PM of India (a Kshatriya).

The only two places where VD is an 'issue' in India is marriage and scriptural studies - both where birth matters. Other than that, there is no issue of discrimination. Of course, there are many places where people still discriminate based on old habits but that has to be changed with education -not attacking Hinduism and demonizing India.

The concept of VD is actually a conversation between two sages of ancient India - Bharadwaj and Bhrigu - recorded in the Mahabharath - who stated that power, land-ownership, knowledge, and money must not lie with one group of people. Thus those whose predispositions towards each must be a part of each Varna (ie Brahmin, Kshatriya etc.). This is actually the first recorded instance of 'separation of powers' if you will in society. To place scriptural knowledge and scientific knowledge 'above' political power (Kshatriya) and money power (Vaishya), was a farsighted strategy and all the credit goes to those two sages of ancient India.

Until the 1800s, when the gurukula system of education was in place, people had their own self-sustaining lifestyles. These are the 'Jatis' I mentioned earlier. A blacksmith was in the business of making swords etc. and whomsoever was the best in that community, rose to prominence. Those who showed exceptional talent but were born in a different Varna (like the examples I gave above), were able to fluidly move into another Varna that suited their lifestyle. That's why, in south India, there have been many kings who were Sudras across many centuries.

When the British took over, the rapid deindustrialization of India destroyed the livelihoods of millions. When steel was banned to supposedly avoid insurgency, where did all the blacksmiths go? When landownership was transferred to robber-barons (Zamindars), what happened to the Sudras? They became indentured laborers (ie slaves) and the atrocities became rampant. Couple this with the English wanting Indian help in administration, set examinations in English and Mathematics where Brahmins excelled due to the tradition of scholarship, the resentment became even worse. A whopping 95% - 97% of the 'jobs' the British gave the Indians during their tyranny in India was taken up by Brahmins who made up less than 3 - 5% of the population. Wonder why there is so much anti-Brahminism?

Until before the British, despite a thousand years of Muslim rule over much of India, the gurukula system never was broken and hence India's economy was at the top of the world. When this system was shattered, Brahmins emigrated from India to look for other opportunities - wherever there was a meritocracy, they would survive and thrive.

When a society focuses on the strengths of its people, only then will it prosper. Pigeonholing them into a certain role (birth-based caste discrimination also called 'casteism') needs to be eradicated. Making them conform to everyone else will also cause problems. Hindu society figured out that we are better off with our own kind - culturally speaking.

VD enabled people whose strengths were attuned to a particular vocation - they excelled in that and those with the best skill made it to the top. If a blacksmith drops his vocation and forgets his skills and decides he wants to be a dancer, who will make the swords? If a Brahmin decides scriptural study is too boring and decides to become a farmer, what happens to the spiritual well-being of the society? What happens to the farmer who loses the job to the Brahmin? Chaos will ensue in society. This is exactly what is happening today - that is why there is a 'wealth gap' and power in the hands of a few while the majority of people are busy playing catch-up.

The most important thing to remember is that VD has NOTHING to do with race, skin color, or some nonsense like royalty. It is a social order to optimize a society as a whole while giving individual freedom to excel in a field they have a propensity for.

 

[Baasha]

I'm just guessing here based on what little you've posted so far, so correct me if I'm wrong.

It really sounds like you got a raw deal from where you grew up here and at your workplace. 😉

And what somewhat amazes me is that even though you were born (and raised?) here, it seems like you were very sheltered and insulated away from the host culture to the point where you were virtually living in India even though you were (raised?) right here in the USA.

I admire one's desire to keep their heritage alive, but that shouldn't get in the way of successfully assimilating into the host culture of which you seem to be having problems with.

Bringing India with you into America to make yourself feel more comfortable and to give yourself advantages that you wouldn't otherwise have is probably not going to work in your favor, especially if you display the same attitude at work as you do here in this forum. 🙂

Raw deal? I went to Christian schools until college - I went to one of the best Catholic schools in the Bay Area and stood head and shoulders above other students - while being constantly bullied for being a Hindu.

I am well assimilated to the extent that I need to be to be successful. No more. No less.

This thread is starting to digress from Ann Coulter's tirade and my original question - what makes one a 'real' American?

When India was a meritocracy? when wasn't it?

Not sure why I'm replying to you but India was a meritocracy until about 1750 CE. When it and China made up about 60% of the world's economic output and the entire west was around 1.8%. Fast forward 200 years (1950) and the complete reverse was true. You think VD (i.e. the caste system), which is thousands of years old, is to blame? lel...

 

[MongGrel]

This thread is starting to digress from Ann Coulter's tirade and my original question - what makes one a 'real' American?

This thread changed course into your personal rant from that a while ago it seems.

Go fucking join the fucking Marines.

 

[zinfamous]

Not sure why I'm replying to you but India was a meritocracy until about 1750 CE. When it and China made up about 60% of the world's economic output and the entire west was around 1.8%. Fast forward 200 years (1950) and the complete reverse was true. You think VD (i.e. the caste system), which is thousands of years old, is to blame? lel...

link

 

[Baasha]

link

Read the Bairoch-Maddison Study sponsored by the OECD.

Here's an article about the study:Link

Excerpt:

India’s share, Bairoch found, fell to 20 per cent in 1800; to 18 per cent in 1830; and finally crashed to 1.7 per cent in 1900, while China’s crashed to 6.2 per cent from 33 per cent. In these 150 years, the combined share of Britain and the US rose from 2 per cent to over 41 per cent. Bairoch shook the West by saying that in middle 19th century, the West had a lower standard of living than Asians - read Indians and Chinese. The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development [OECD], network of rich nations, forthwith constituted a Development Institute Studies under Angus Maddisson, a great economic historian, to conduct a comprehensive research into economic history - the implied agenda was to prove Bairoch wrong.
Angus Maddisson postulated, ‘if Bairoch is right, then much more of the backwardness of the third world presumably has to be explained by colonial exploitation’ and ‘much less of Europe’s advantage can be due to scientific precocity, centuries of slow accumulation, and organisational and financial superiority’. After two decades of hard work, Maddision published his studies titled ‘World Economic History - A Millennial Perspective in 2001’.
His study confirmed Bairoch’s study of 150 years and more, as Maddisson studied the entire 2000 years economic history. Maddisson showed that India was the leading economic power of the world from the 1st year of the first millennium till 1700 - with 32 per cent share of world’s GDP in the first 1000 years and 28 per cent to 24 per cent in the second millennium till 1700.
China was second to India except in 1600 when China temporarily overtook India. India again overtook China in 1700. The global economic play was in the hands of India and China till 1830. And two nations disqualified for development by Weber for following Hindu and Buddhist religions. Maddison confirmed, actually confessed, that [Hindu] India fell only due to colonial exploitation. Now the Maddisson study, endorsed by OECD, is the most authentic economic history of the world. What does it prove? The Hindu rate of growth had kept India going as the most powerful economy of the world for 1850 years out of 2000 years. That is why William Dalrymple described the rise of India ‘as the empire striking back’ -- meaning that India’s rise was not rags to riches story.
The Bairoch-Maddisson studies have sealed the discourse decades back. Their studies have also been corroborated by other studies and records. Some of them are: studies into the Mayuran export-led economic Model Hindu India [American Journal of Economics and Sociology April 1993]; study into consumption during Akbar’s regime as being higher than in Europe by Centre for West Asia Studies Jamia Milia Islamia University; the Economic History of Greco-Roman World which described how two thousand years ago India was bankrupting Roman Egypt of its gold reserves by its export surplus; the history of Indian merchant navy which had a fleet strength of 40,000 ships in Akbar’s time and as many as 34,000 ships before the British arrived and the Bank of International Settlements [BIS] Annual report of 1934-35 which said that between 1493 and 1930 India absorbed 14 per cent of world gold production - which meant that it earned that much export surplus for five centuries continuously.

Here is Angus Maddison's study: The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective

 

[ivwshane]

Raw deal? I went to Christian schools until college - I went to one of the best Catholic schools in the Bay Area and stood head and shoulders above other students - while being constantly bullied for being a Hindu.

I am well assimilated to the extent that I need to be to be successful. No more. No less.

This thread is starting to digress from Ann Coulter's tirade and my original question - what makes one a 'real' American?



Not sure why I'm replying to you but India was a meritocracy until about 1750 CE. When it and China made up about 60% of the world's economic output and the entire west was around 1.8%. Fast forward 200 years (1950) and the complete reverse was true. You think VD (i.e. the caste system), which is thousands of years old, is to blame? lel...

Well there's your problem😉

You have the same issues with the same types of people most of the posters in this thread have issues with and you've let your messed up childhood distort reality. As you can see by the numerous threads on this forum, a lot of Americans dislike the rascist people who still exist in this country as well as others who show bigotry and are closed minded. You've become the very thing you hate.

 

[bshole]

Not sure why I'm replying to you but India was a meritocracy until about 1750 CE. When it and China made up about 60% of the world's economic output and the entire west was around 1.8%. Fast forward 200 years (1950) and the complete reverse was true. You think VD (i.e. the caste system), which is thousands of years old, is to blame? lel...

Absolutely it is to blame. I don't think Indian people are by nature inferior to whites, so I won't blame that as the reason for the shit condition of their country. They have plenty of natural resources. Removing the people and resources as the reason, the thing that really sticks out is their culture -- and their caste system. If you cannot develop into a Westernized secular culture YOU ARE FUCKING GUARANTEED TO FAIL. Every single Westernized secular country is MILES ahead of India in every metric that matters. Japan and South Korea are shining examples of the power of Western secularization. It works for all races and nations, it really really does. India is a really tough nut because the people on the top of the heap by birth will never fully embrace it because they don't give a rat's ass about those further down the line. They care more about themselves and their status than they do about the success of their country. If India ditched completely their religion, they would almost immediately become a force to be reckoned with.... as is happening to China right before our eyes.

 

[MongGrel]

Read the Bairoch-Maddison Study sponsored by the OECD.

Here's an article about the study:Link

Excerpt:



Here is Angus Maddison's study: The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective

 

[Moonbeam]

Your philosophizing would be more useful to the "USA USA USA" christian nationalists who are ignorant about the trash that is their society and vacuous inanity that forms their so-called worldview of 'American Exceptionalism.'

No. It would be equally useless because the whole reason bigotry exists is to prevent the bigot from feeling his own self hate. You must forgive me for trying though because your need to express the superiority of your belief system tells me how badly you have been damaged and it makes me sad. The world has apparently taken from you some special station you feel entitled to but actually never had. All that anger and contempt for others over the loss of nothing.

 

[werepossum]

Absolutely it is to blame. I don't think Indian people are by nature inferior to whites, so I won't blame that as the reason for the shit condition of their country. They have plenty of natural resources. Removing the people and resources as the reason, the thing that really sticks out is their culture -- and their caste system. If you cannot develop into a Westernized secular culture YOU ARE FUCKING GUARANTEED TO FAIL. Every single Westernized secular country is MILES ahead of India in every metric that matters. Japan and South Korea are shining examples of the power of Western secularization. It works for all races and nations, it really really does. India is a really tough nut because the people on the top of the heap by birth will never fully embrace it because they don't give a rat's ass about those further down the line. They care more about themselves and their status than they do about the success of their country. If India ditched completely their religion, they would almost immediately become a force to be reckoned with.... as is happening to China right before our eyes.

Well said.

As a matter of charity for the mentally, um, challenged, we should all chip in to send Baasha to India where his vitriolic ignorance can be celebrated rather than ridiculed. Hell, I'll even volunteer to work on the catapult.