Android Orphans: Visualizing a Sad History of Support

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badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
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Your assessment is poor. Anubis said that most people don't care, and that's pretty damn accurate. I'd guess that 99% of Android users aren't losing any sleep over delayed updates.

In the time it takes an Apple fan to graduate from an iPhone 3gs to iPhone 4, a typical Android user might have tried out 3 or 4 phones from several different manufacturers. Why would the Android user be wringing their hands over lack of updates on an old ass phone that they have since replaced or gifted to someone else?

The point is that platform fragmentation isn't the deal breaker some people are making it out to be. Android phones are rapidly becoming a commodity. They are cheap, powerful, feature-rich devices that are easily customized and easily replaced.

Welcome to life outside the walled garden. :thumbsup:
So what your saying is despite the countless times Android fans like to say the iPhone is an overpriced piece of crap, in the end it ends up being a better value because to get the most out of my Android experience I have to go through 3-4 phones every 2 years? While with my iPhone I can keep the phone for 2 years and enjoy free updates to my software that may even boost my hardware performance(ie iOS 5).

Is this real life?

Is it so hard to just admit that Android manufacturers suck at supporting their devices?
 

gsaldivar

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2001
8,691
1
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Is it so hard to just admit that Android manufacturers suck at supporting their devices?

Is it so hard to just admit that Apple users require continuous product support to a much greater degree than Android users do?

As I've already stated, 99% of Android users don't know about fragmentation, and they don't care about updates. See above for the reasons why.
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
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Is it so hard to just admit that Apple users require continuous product support to a much greater degree than Android users do?

As I've already stated, 99% of Android users don't know about fragmentation, and they don't care about updates. See above for the reasons why.
So what your saying is since people don't care about updates companies shouldn't even bother releasing them? What happened to choice? Maybe the 99% don't care because they don't have a choice?
 

trmiv

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
14,670
18
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Your assessment is poor. Anubis said that most people don't care, and that's pretty damn accurate. I'd guess that 99% of Android users aren't losing any sleep over delayed updates.

In the time it takes an Apple fan to graduate from an iPhone 3gs to iPhone 4, a typical Android user might have tried out 3 or 4 phones from several different manufacturers. Why would the Android user be wringing their hands over lack of updates on an old ass phone that they have since replaced or gifted to someone else?

The point is that platform fragmentation isn't the deal breaker some people are making it out to be. Android phones are rapidly becoming a commodity. They are cheap, powerful, feature-rich devices that are easily customized and easily replaced.

Welcome to life outside the walled garden. :thumbsup:

Since when are Android phones cheap? They may be cheap if you are buying them subsidized, which the majority of people in the US are, but unsubsidized new phones are nowhere near cheap. If you do buy subsidized you are locked into a two year contract before you can get another cheap phone, so wouldn't it be nice if you got some updates during that time, especially if those updates included new features or performance enhancements?

Also, I seriously doubt the "typical" Android user is going through 3-4 phones in a year to 18 months. I've gone through two in that time, but I'm not a typical smartphone user, as I suspect most on ATOT in this forum aren't. People who are phone crazy may go through that many phones, but again, they aren't typical users. My wife, my parents, my boss, co-workers, etc all have older Android devices that they are still under contract for, and won't be getting new devices until they can get them subsidized. That's how most typical Android users are, they buy cheap subsidized devices and hold on to them until they can buy another cheap subsidized device. And now with carriers like Verizon doing away with the yearly early upgrade, you'll see a lot more people locked into their devices for longer terms.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
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In the US, where a majority of cell users are post-paid and on-contract, nobody should have a phone older than 2 years old.

Even a free phone every 2 years when you renew your contract keeps you up-to-date.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
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What the hell is this argument even about?

Support? What support do I supposedly need?

Since I've had my Droid X, it's been updated OTA several times with point updates, and one major update from Froyo to Gingerbread. (Did iPhones upgrade OTA during most of that time?) The latest Gingerbread update just dropped last week.

And this is from the worst make for 'supporting' their phones, Moto. (I'm still not even sure what support really means in this case- like tech support? OS support? What? Whatever it is, I never need this from ANY computer or device I own.)

Of all thing to declare your phone the 'winner' of some imaginary contest over, this one is the most obscure. iPhone or Android, I've never in real life heard a single person touting the benefits of their device cite this 'support' thing as one of their most valued things. Sounds like something where people read a chart online and virtually on the spot found a brand new "Hey, this makes my phone cooler than something else!" reason to feel amped about their phone.
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
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91
What the hell is this argument even about?

Support? What support do I supposedly need?

Since I've had my Droid X, it's been updated OTA several times with point updates, and one major update from Froyo to Gingerbread. (Did iPhones upgrade OTA during most of that time?) The latest Gingerbread update just dropped last week.

And this is from the worst make for 'supporting' their phones, Moto. (I'm still not even sure what support really means in this case- like tech support? OS support? What? Whatever it is, I never need this from ANY computer or device I own.)

Of all thing to declare your phone the 'winner' of some imaginary contest over, this one is the most obscure. iPhone or Android, I've never in real life heard a single person touting the benefits of their device cite this 'support' thing as one of their most valued things. Sounds like something where people read a chart online and virtually on the spot found a brand new "Hey, this makes my phone cooler than something else!" reason to feel amped about their phone.
Bolded because Notsureifsrs.jpg

What are you talking about? This isn't even about which device is better, it's about manufacturers providing the latest updates to their products. OS improvements can add new feature and even improve performance so why shouldn't a person care?

And congrats on getting Gingerbread a month before ICS came out...
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
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Bolded because Notsureifsrs.jpg

What are you talking about? This isn't even about which device is better, it's about manufacturers providing the latest updates to their products. OS improvements can add new feature and even improve performance so why shouldn't a person care?
Please enlighten me- exactly what update, OS improvement, new feature etc. have I missed out on?

So we're going on and on about 'support' and features and blah de blah, but OTA updates suddenly don't count as a feature? How convenient.

And congrats on getting Gingerbread a month before ICS came out...
Gingerbread UPDATE. Do you even know what you're talking about?
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
30
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Please enlighten me- exactly what update, OS improvement, new feature etc. have I missed out on?

So we're going on and on about 'support' and features and blah de blah, but OTA updates suddenly don't count as a feature? How convenient.


Gingerbread UPDATE. Do you even know what you're talking about?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4956/apple-ios-5-review
I am not going to spoon feed you.
Example:
attachment.php


"So we're going on and on about 'support' and features and blah de blah, but OTA updates suddenly don't count as a feature? How convenient."
iOS 5 do you speak it?

"Gingerbread UPDATE. Do you even know what you're talking about?"
Misread the original statement, I apologize.
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
7
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http://www.anandtech.com/show/4956/apple-ios-5-review
I am not going to spoon feed you.
Example:
attachment.php


"So we're going on and on about 'support' and features and blah de blah, but OTA updates suddenly don't count as a feature? How convenient."
iOS 5 do you speak it?

"Gingerbread UPDATE. Do you even know what you're talking about?"
Misread the original statement, I apologize.
Ummm...I think he's asking about Android updates, not iOS.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
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Ah, so now iOS 5 and OTA updates have been around "during most of the time" I've had my Droid X. So are we back to that suddenly being a counted 'feature' since finally iOS can count it too?

It's not a big deal by the way, it just illustrates how silly this so-called 'feature' and 'support' pissing contest is when it goes back and forth on a dime. I just notice that any 'feature' Android had all along doesn't count (drop down notifications, widgets, OTA updates, voice control, OOB navigation, etc.) when the iPhone has it, then suddenly it counts.

Was there some update or 'support' or whatever that my Droid X didn't get that would have produced magic new features? That chart doesn't show any progression of the DX, or any other Android phone, based on updates.
 

Kanalua

Diamond Member
Jun 14, 2001
4,860
2
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Your phone's manufacturer only has 2 or 3 models for sale and your only option on that platform is to wait for new software or a new model. If that makes you happy, then more power to you...

To me this really is the difference. My Vibrant was on a stock ROM for about three or four hours. I get nightly updates with CM7.1.

My wife on the other hand; if T-mobile had the iPhone we'd get one in a heart beat for her. It's perfect for her, not complicated and a simple phone for her simple needs.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,863
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That's a terrible graph. iPhones are flagship devices, there are 4 of them. Why are there things like the backlip and cliq there.

My Droid X is on the latest version, same with the X2, where is the Nexus S, the "flagship" product for google?

Also from the graph, it would seem that the Nexus 1 has better support than the i4.

The graph and comparison wouldn't mean much if it talks about current devices


"current" being relative in this case: iphone 4 is still very current, even though it's more than a year old. "current" for Android devices seem to be no older than 3 months.


the graph is fine for what it is trying to show--support one year out and on.

There is no reason to talk about devices that are less than a year old.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Some updates are less important than others. When I picked up the iP3G back in the summer of 2008 it did NOT have cut/copy/paste, but sometime later Apple released an update that provided, for the first time, cut/copy/paste. This update was important and if Apple had said they would only provide this update only with the next iPhone release they would have caught holy hell -- and rightly so!

The orphan issue is one of the major problem with Android phones and the problem lies not with Google but with the phone makers. It would be nice if the phone makers worked along side Google when a new update is nearing completion so that when Google is ready the makers can be ready to go.

In truth, of course, the phone makers are more interested in selling NEW phones and only devote enough effort on older phones to avoid really pissing off there customers. The phone makers love the fact that so many users simply buy the newest phone when it come out.

I'm glad this issue is being raised and I hope this kind of dialog puts more pressure on the makers to support there products better.


Brian

aye.

This is the real problem with Android, and Jobs was dead on in some audio I was listening to the other night about this (some radio commentary--found through links on one of these threads--I'll go look for it).

Anyway, he made excellent points about how in many ways, Android is a closed system (remember that Jobs markets to the average consumer and not tech junkies, so that is how he thinks) in that you have Android, and then on top of that you have the manufacturers, chiefly Motorolla, HTC, and Samsung (this was well before Samsung was dominant) that inject their own interface, locked app system and bootloaders or whatever.

On top of this, you have another round of device manufacturers that further complicate matters--even stock Android complicates things in this sense, as to the average consumer, it is simply another interface--that offer different hardware and device functionality that gives a very mixed and completely inaccurate impression of the OS. With iPhone--you absolutely know what you are getting, and anyone can identify to it. This is what Jobs has always done exceedingly well, and why he (and Apple, if they continue to follow his guidance) will always succeed. Jobs understood branding, and further--he understood personal identification with the device, whatever that device was.

think about it this way:

iPhone = Qtip. This can't really be denied. It is now, quite obviously, the de-facto name for "smartphone."

"Droid" = .... "not iPhone?" seriously. what do people mean when they say "droid?" the average consumer says that instantly. SOmething that motorola/Verizon created, obviously, to try and capture that branding object, but all they did was manage to further confuse the identification with Android. It is quite profound.

An example: on NPR the other day, they had the Jobs biographer dude (who spent some time detailing some hilariously inaccurate accounts of history, but I digress." At one point, Terry Gross is referencing the now infamous Jobs comments about his desire to "destroy Android if it takes every last penny that Apple owns." Except...Gross didn't say "Android," she said "Droid."

No Android fan seems to want to acknowledge this, but it's a terrible problem with the system. You have the clear benefits of Open source, of course (iOS more or less does this to some degree, anyway--a profound departure for Apple, of course), an incredibly potent system that will do anything and everything iOS could possibly hope to do, yet a terrible market confusion over what it is.

The bright spot, then, is ICS--and it has to be a sure winner. Finally, you have one version of Android, that the consumer can feel comfortable merging from phone to tablet, and with the apparent confirmation that Verizon will actually release an untarnished Android handset, some hint that the service providers are warming up to the fact that Android needs, more than anything else, a multi-device, mult-platform, singular identity. (Motorolla still seems to be the major asshole, of course).

I haven't seen too many people mention this wiht the ICS news, but Duarte made a rather poignant (and very Jobs-like) comment during his introduction to ICS : "We realized that people didn't love Android--they did not identify with their devices."

I hope, hope, hope HOPE, that this is exactly what we will see with ICS and further--not the Apple cult concept of "love thy device"--but simply, a cross-platform, cross-carrier consumer identification with a single system.

It is probably way too late to expect "Droid" to disappear from the vernacular...though that would sure be nice. (granted, the DOA Bionic may just help in that regard. :hmm:)

:\


found the Jobs radio rant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxoAF0Jvhqc

it's indeed ranty and silly in the beginning, but be patient with it. He makes some great points.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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To me this really is the difference. My Vibrant was on a stock ROM for about three or four hours. I get nightly updates with CM7.1.

My wife on the other hand; if T-mobile had the iPhone we'd get one in a heart beat for her. It's perfect for her, not complicated and a simple phone for her simple needs.

if she has simple needs--"seriously simple"--then this:


Comet

Not sure if they are still running the Promo, but this was released on day one free, with a pre-pay contract. the GF loves hers--it's $35/month, 1500 minutes, unlimited text, 30mb data. (remember: $35/month for that plan)

It's actually a decently reviewed phone, considering it was, at the time, the first completely free Android smartphone on release (reportedly performs at ~89% capability of top tier smartphones).

Honestly, I haven't played around with it too much, but she loves it. It's small and "cute." I think the screen is crap...but I'm comparing it to my SGS2....before that, and compared to my Behold, the Comet was AMAZING. :D


anyway, worth considering.

(caveat emptor: she has had problems every fricking month with the new pre-paid plan. On the day of turnover, she is always left without service until she calls T-Mobile to convince them that "no, I have not used up my 1500 minutes; in fact, I have only used 120 minutes this month," and that they need to process her pre pay--which is on auto pay, or it is supposed to be on auto pay--before she can get her service reinstated. It is a PITA, for sure)
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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The biggest problem is locked bootloaders, and the crap UI overlays these manufacturers stick on some of these things. The bootloaders make it difficult to ROM it yourself, and the crap overlays give them a built-in excuse to drag their feet with updates. Hoping ICS changes that, but I saw the news in another thread that HTC is already sizing up ICS for Sense UI. Wonderful!

I prefer Touchwiz 4.0 to stock.

/flamesuit.

(no seriously--it is great. anyway, I agree with you overall)
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,863
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um why is this sad?

why would I want to update an OBSOLETE slow device?

every 2-3 months a device comes out that doubles the previous leader in features and speed..
so why bother updating?

Apple sits on crap way too long..

rather have a choice of cutting edge handsets vs an updated dinosaur..

...but Apple still wins in that round. These "updated dinosaurs" run toe-to-toe with "young wippersnapper" Android devices of various stripes and colors, when you average it out.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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most of those phones on that list are horrible phones that were sidelined for a reason.

phones like the EVO which is now 1 year old will for sure get 1 more update or will get a cracked version of the update via ROOT.

let the shitty devices die.. people get what they pay for..
want a good phone buy a top end phone..
those will last 2 years..

and more and more people are buying phones when they come out...people want the latest and greatest.

damn, man. You're arguing for iPhone and you don't even know it.

:D
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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31,354
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"Having all the features available from release > slow trickle of updates enabling those features."

Seems Android also has a slow trickle. The difference is it doesn't trickle down to all devices, or trickles down at a different pace depending on manufacturer.


and since you're so keen on hammering about features that takes years for a competitor to copy, how do you take a screen shot on an android phone?

home key + power key. ^_^ (um, yeah...that's like, one device. and now the Galaxy Nexus, lol)


anyway. You're correct, and they're correct. yes, the updates happen as they happen with iOS, but as you say, they only happen in Android in a very fragmented (delayed, unpredictable, uneven, frustrating) way because you have a confusing stable of devices and systems locked in through service providers and manufacturers.

No idea why at this point, with market share, Google simply doesn't throw down the gauntlet with VZW and ATT and tell them: this is what we want our phones to do, this is what our users will have access to, and this is what you can't do. ditto with the manufacturers.

maybe I'm being naive...but if Apple can do it....
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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As has been mentioned above, I also think that if you want to describe it this way the only fair comparison would be the Nexus One and Nexus S.

Nexus S isn't even in there because he put an arbitrary cut-off time of July 2010 for some reason. I haven't read the article, but does he explain why? Never mind, I found it, basically he said he's just lazy (and apparently satisfied after selectively finding what he wanted to show, so that's good enough. lol) :)

No--it's a one year cut (regarding updates) that makes the chart. Nexus S is just on the cusp of the cut and, correct me if I'm wrong, was relatively current (compared to today), at the time of release, no?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,863
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No.

It's a Samsung feature.

It was recently "introduced" with Galaxy Nexus as part of ICS...because it's a Samsung Phone. Google liked it, so it became part of ICS.

(So, it has been available on "an Android phone" since, at least, April? 2011)

;)

I guess the i9000 had it, too. so...it's as old as the iPhone 4, now?
:hmm:

again--fragmentation is a motherfucker
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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Geeze you android fanatics can't understand this can you or are somehow hurt to admit Apple does a good job on support? Please stop making us normal Android fans embarrassed to be associated with you.

You have TWO choices. Which is better?

1. Support
2. No support

No third magical choice. Just two choices. 1 or 2.

That's the whole point. Not whether it has x or y feature already or which phone is better. Just simply pick 1 or 2.

You make the mistake of thinking it's that simple. Apple does it so well because they control the entire chain of development and device.

Google and Android do not have that luxury--and therein lies the problem.
 

kubani1

Senior member
Oct 23, 2010
253
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www.promotingcrap.com
apple is much easier to keep up to date, that is a great pro, android offers more choices, that is a great pro, apple is harder to customize, that is a con, android is difficult to upgrade, that is a con.

now that the argument has been clarified can we compare something other than the sizes of each others genitals.