Andrew Sullivan on Bill Maher

[Excelsior]

He just said one of the most absurd things I have ever heard:

"That kind of stuff (torture/torture till death) did not happen in WW2 because we had a president with morals."

I still can't believe it. Is he serious? Ridiculous...

Thoughts?

 

[Strk]

I assume he meant as directed by the president(Well, by the administration, that is), not as a whole. Because abuses always happen in war, it's just a matter of being institutionalized or not..

 

[Steeplerot]

Why can't you believe it? Seems pretty simple to me.

We tried war criminals in ww2.

 

[Pabster]

The naivety meter is off the scale again.

 

[dahunan]

I am honestly curious... Can someone post some links that document American Forces Torturing enemy soldiers in WWII

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: dahunan
I am honestly curious... Can someone post some links that document American Forces Torturing enemy soldiers in WWII......

.....with approval of the adminstration.

 

[judasmachine]

there is a distinction to be made between state sanctioned, and random acts of brutality. sadly i fear both are happening right now.

 

[Steeplerot]

I dunno about the "moral" aspect of US in ww2.

ww2 was buisness as usual for the big companies.

How anyone could think US had a shred of morality after the firebombing of dresden needs his head examined. <--biggest massacre in europes history thanks to uncle sam.

If you have never read Slaughterhouse 5

Kurt Vonneguts semi-autobiographical of his experience being a german POW in dresden when the massacre happened..do so..

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Why can't you believe it? Seems pretty simple to me.

We tried war criminals in ww2.

What? I guess you guys misunderstand me...he said that torture/death from torture DID NOT happen in WW2 because we had a moral president.

Obvously he has lost his mind...because if torture/death from torture happened in ANY war it most certainly occurred in WW2. They were dealing with Nazis you know..

Agreed?

Same to you Pabster.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Why can't you believe it? Seems pretty simple to me.

We tried war criminals in ww2.

What? I guess you guys misunderstand me...he said that torture/death from torture DID NOT happen in WW2 because we had a moral president.

Obvously he has lost his mind...because if torture/death from torture happened in ANY war it most certainly occurred in WW2. They were dealing with Nazis you know..

Agreed?

Same to you Pabster.

seems he should've specified by Americans. To say it didn't happen at all in WWII is clearly wrong. I don't know of American torturing any prisoners to death, but I suppose it's possible.

 

[Steeplerot]

we have not had a moral or compassionate prez since fdr or maybe jfk. (jfk was pretty corrupt still though)

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
we have not had a moral or compassionate prez since fdr or maybe jfk. (jfk was pretty corrupt still though)

Jimmy Carter was up there if that's what you want. At least he can say that about his presidency..... not much else though.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
we have not had a moral or compassionate prez since fdr or maybe jfk. (jfk was pretty corrupt still though)

Jimmy Carter was up there if that's what you want. At least he can say that about his presidency..... not much else though.

Carter was pretty just also...I have to agree with that.

Kinda his undoing also.

 

[digiram]

Something far worse happened in WW2. Genocide of the Jews and the bombing of *Civilian* population in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

War is ugly, and will always be. Sully is just pully stuff out of his behind in the heat of the moment, and probably to please the crowd as well(maybe).

The only way we will ever see peace is to realize who's pulling all the strings, and fight to end thier power, influence, and control.

 

[Witling]

Dahunan, hey, there's this wonderful search engine called Google. You want to find some links about American torture in WWII, just look it up rather than asking someone else to do so. [Edited to correct my error in who said what.]

Charles Lindburgh was a guy with attitudes that were unpleasant and, in my opinion, many of which are just plain wrong (note the punchy use of the word "japs" in the extracts from his journal), but, he kept a journal and here's an excerpt from it

During his Pacific tour Mr Lindbergh repeatedly recorded his shock over American treatment of Japanese soldiers. In an entry for June 28, 1944 he wrote: "I am shocked at the attitude of our American troops. They have no respect for death, the courage of an enemy soldier or many of the ordinary decencies of life. They think nothing whatever of robbing the body of a dead Jap and call him a "son of a bitch" while they do so. "I said during a discussion with American officers that regardless of what the japs did I did not see how we could gain anything or claim that we represented a civilized state if we killed them by torture." This was a theme to which Mr.Lindbergh returned several times, as he recorded instances of shooting of Japanese taken as war prisoners or the torture of them.

Review of Lindburg's Journal

First hand reports by soldiers in Germany describe taking the boots off German prisoners and marching them through the snow until the got frostbitten feet.

The arrogance of thinking that Americans were too good for that sort of stuff! This stuff always happens in combat situations. It's one of the reasons we should think long and hard before entering combat. It is morally corrosive to us. And, learn to use Google or just keep brushing your teeth with gunpowder and shooting off your mouth.

 

[Rainsford]

I know it's easy to dismiss this guy's comments as naive, but the more I think about it, the more I have trouble coming up with any examples of organized, specific torture of prisoners. Perhaps it's just not something we talk about, and I certainly wasn't alive during WWII, but I really am having trouble coming up with some good examples of what we did during the war. Just wondering if anyone else had anything in mind, or if it's just "obvious"?

 

[Witling]

Rainsford, there was much more of a "gentlemen's agreement" not to talk about this sort of thing in WW II times. As an example of how cooperative the press was, most of the American public didn't realize Roosevelt didn't have the full function of his legs. He was always photographed either sitting down or posed. I think it might be hard to find reports of "organized" torture. If it's organized, it's a war crime. But, by the time Vietnam came along the press was less genteel. There are reliable reports of prisoners being given "flying lessons" by being thrown out of helocopters and then there's Lt. Calley -- you do know about him, don't you. Very well publicized. He was sent to jail. They were massacring villagers and only stopped when a helocopter pilot interposed his heloccopter between the Lt and the villagers. This is what people do in war.

 

[Strk]

Witling, we're trying to think of torture in terms of being being institionalized and systematic as directed by the administration, not random acts by the military. Abuse always happens during conflicts; that isn't up for question.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Why can't you believe it? Seems pretty simple to me.

We tried war criminals in ww2.

What? I guess you guys misunderstand me...he said that torture/death from torture DID NOT happen in WW2 because we had a moral president.

Obvously he has lost his mind...because if torture/death from torture happened in ANY war it most certainly occurred in WW2. They were dealing with Nazis you know..

Agreed?

Same to you Pabster.

seems he should've specified by Americans. To say it didn't happen at all in WWII is clearly wrong. I don't know of American torturing any prisoners to death, but I suppose it's possible.

He did specifiy Americans when he said "we had moral president".

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Strk
Witling, we're trying to think of torture in terms of being being institionalized and systematic as directed by the administration, not random acts by the military. Abuse always happens during conflicts; that isn't up for question.

Exactly, it always happens. Thats why I wonder how Sullivan could possibly rationalize his statement. If anything, it would have happened on a much larger scale in WW2. We might not have many cases documented, but as someone else said, things were most likely kept quiet back in the day.

I can easily see American soldiers fvcking with Nazis/Japanese soldiers..not that I care, but I can see it happening.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Strk
Witling, we're trying to think of torture in terms of being being institionalized and systematic as directed by the administration, not random acts by the military. Abuse always happens during conflicts; that isn't up for question.

We are? I figured it is the same....the end result is the same anyway. And would that not require documentation/proof that such a thing is currently happening now? I think it has more to do with the military itself than the president.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
there is a distinction to be made between state sanctioned, and random acts of brutality. sadly i fear both are happening right now.

Why? Where is your proof, or do you just feel that way?

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: digiram
Something far worse happened in WW2. Genocide of the Jews and the bombing of *Civilian* population in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

War is ugly, and will always be. Sully is just pully stuff out of his behind in the heat of the moment, and probably to please the crowd as well(maybe).

The only way we will ever see peace is to realize who's pulling all the strings, and fight to end thier power, influence, and control.

I agree...sort of. Yes War is ugly, but obviously Sullivan wasn't thinking at the time.

 

[Strk]

Page 46

There is an enormous difference between state-sanctioned torture and arbitrary violations that always occur during wars/conflicts.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: digiram
Something far worse happened in WW2. Genocide of the Jews and the bombing of *Civilian* population in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

War is ugly, and will always be. Sully is just pully stuff out of his behind in the heat of the moment, and probably to please the crowd as well(maybe).

The only way we will ever see peace is to realize who's pulling all the strings, and fight to end thier power, influence, and control.

If that was directed at me the firebombing of the open non-military city of dresden was worse then either nuke attack on japan.

hence, "biggest massacre of ww2"... was US and british.

the firebombing was pointless waste of manpower, lives and destruction of a historic city.

rather spiteful actually seeing as germany was totally crushed by the spring of '45 and dresden was a refugee city without even AA guns.

refugees living on roofs running from the oncoming soviet army is a pretty lame target.