• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Andrew Luck vs RG3

Page 33 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

When all is said and done when they retire, who do you think will be deemed the bette

  • Luck

  • RG3

  • Russell Wilson


Results are only viewable after voting.
Mar 11, 2004
20,202
2,364
126
Ok, I stand corrected - I didn't realize Wilson was having as good a season as he is having or even as he did last year. Still, Luck's season is special given the major surgery he had. Remember, just a few months ago, doubts were swirling that he'd ever play again. I'd personally still take Luck. :) And the Pro Bowl snub in favor of Tom Brady? LOL, what a joke, but I guess it doesn't matter since no one cares about the Pro Bowl. Darius Leonard also got snubbed big time.

(Also, if we're speaking about records, let's talk about head to head records at the highest level where they could actually compete against one another in a game. If I remember correctly, Peyton was 3-1 against Brady in the AFC Championship.)

But regardless of all of that, we're guilty of derailing the thread, which is about Luck vs RGIII. @eits , care to comment?
Yeah you clearly have not been paying attention to Wilson (which makes your "you'd take Luck" completely meaningless as you're clearly biased, which makes you complaining about the Pro Bowl a bit funny). While I think Luck deserves it over Brady, the difference between them is not nearly as big as you make it out to be. All their numbers are similar, and although Luck does have a lot more TDs, their TD/INT ratio is similar. PFF said Luck narrowly edged out Brady in their ratings too. Luck might lose out on comeback player of the year too because of JJ Watt.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,308
15,469
136
Damn you Mahomes homers... :D But that guy is really fricking good. I'd rather give the MVP to Rivers this year, but I don't how you don't give it to Mahomes
 

purbeast0

Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
49,386
2,363
126
I've only seen Wilson play one game and it was the prime time game against he Vikings, and he looked like complete and utter shit. He threw probably the worst interception in the history of the NFL in that game too. I think he had like 40 yards at half. They've been a middle of the pack team pretty much all season.

I don't really care what his numbers are either other than the W/L. I've been on that train the past 3 years with Cousins putting up huge numbers but couldn't get the job done so numbers without W's mean nothing. 8 wins is nothing to snub at but it's also nothing special.
 
Mar 11, 2004
20,202
2,364
126
Manning was on some good Colts teams during the middle of his tenure, but around 2007 or so, Bill Polian and Chris Polian started letting the offensive line go to hell by not resigning anyone and drafting folks who couldn't play. That's when the sacks started piling up and eventually resulted in Manning getting knocked out for the 2011 season because he reinjured a nagging neck injury. The jury is still out on who had better coaches, but I like what I see from Frank Reich and his staff very much.

I've been taking a bit of a break from the NFL and didn't realize Wilson was still performing very well - with the Seahawks not doing well the last couple of years (this season excluded), I probably assumed he was struggling but I was wrong.
Right, no QB has ever only been on stacked teams. Its just I see some people act like Manning was a god and took total crap teams to the playoffs every year, which isn't true at all.

Brady vs Manning were 2-3 in the AFC Championship (was 2-1 before Manning went to the Broncos). Oh and for the "Brady had godly line and Manning had shit lines" narrative that I've seen (not from you): Brady has been sacked 471 times, Manning 303, in almost the exact same number of games (currently). Even your claim that the Colts line went to shit is a bit odd since his sack numbers didn't really change much (went up a bit in 2007 but then actually arguably lowered in 2008 and 2009, and then 2010 was about average). I'm sure there's things that can explain that even with a worse line, but I'm not sure the difference is as drastic as you seem to believe. It was just that Manning had a neck injury that he'd never gotten properly taken care of and then it was made worse later one. Didn't he also do something stupid like put off getting proper surgery while he tried to just rehab it or something (extending the total time, and the whole time his arm strength deteriorating)?

Looking at it again, yeah maybe Luck hasn't had the better coaches. I was mostly thinking of Caldwell and Dungy, but Dungy and Pagano are probably more equal (defensive minded coaches) or even more to the benefit of Manning. Luck and Manning both had Arians (wasn't a major head coach for either, but he was a good offensive minded coach) so that's a wash. Reich seems like he might be good, so we'll give him an ~Mora at this point.

I was a bit harsh, and there's been some weird narrative off and on the past few years about Wilson like he's gone to shit, when that wasn't the case at all. But then there's also people trying to make it seem like Rodgers has gone to shit and is the actual reason why the Packers aren't that good any more. He had a down year (for him, still wasn't that bad or maybe even bad at all really), but he's not the reason the Packers and have underperformed. He's the reason why they seemed better than they really were. The Packers went from drafting really well to not drafting well and then they haven't been great in free agency lately either. They've had quite a bit of turnover in receivers the past couple of years too I believe.
 
Mar 11, 2004
20,202
2,364
126
I've only seen Wilson play one game and it was the prime time game against he Vikings, and he looked like complete and utter shit. He threw probably the worst interception in the history of the NFL in that game too. I think he had like 40 yards at half. They've been a middle of the pack team pretty much all season.

I don't really care what his numbers are either other than the W/L. I've been on that train the past 3 years with Cousins putting up huge numbers but couldn't get the job done so numbers without W's mean nothing. 8 wins is nothing to snub at but it's also nothing special.
Awesome argument, "I'm going to base my opinion off a very small sample, any other information be damned!" Certainly stats don't tell the whole story, but you saying W-L only matters is every bit as stupid as it ignores that there could be plenty of other reasons for how the game goes.

Have fun with your wins that mean jack shit. Hopefully Alex Smith can return and keep getting your possibly worst franchise in the NFL (and that's saying something) wins to placate stupid fans like you.

Oh yeah, did you see that Snyder has been trying to get the Rubs and Turmp to slip shit into the federal budget (or some other bill that needs passing, think it was related to the shutdown stuff; but they wanted to ram it through before the Democrats get the house and can tell them to fuck off) so he can build a new stadium at the old RFK? As if you didn't need constant reminder of how much of a slimy fucking piece of garbage he is.

Damn you Mahomes homers... :D But that guy is really fricking good. I'd rather give the MVP to Rivers this year, but I don't how you don't give it to Mahomes
Fuck Rivers. He doesn't deserve shit. He's squandered more talent and opportunity than any QB in the history of the league. I hope he never even makes a Super Bowl let alone wins one. If the Chargers had kept Brees, they probably would've won 3 rings, maybe even in a row.

I still can't believe the Chiefs squandered that game like that. Fuckin Reid and his shit playcalling in the 2nd half. That and they sat Berry for the whole 2nd half (WTF, they should've had him in for at minimum that last Chargers drive or even just the fucking 2 point conversion). We saw how much of a difference he makes for the secondary (just making sure they're in the right place, which of course without him out there they fuckup, costing the game). At least it seems like he should be able to go for the playoffs so maybe he can come in and Bob Sanders them to a championship.

Leave it to the Chiefs to fuck up what was set to be an epic pouty Rivers tantrum. He threw an INT with his first pass and that set the tone for the game until like the last 5 minutes. He should've had like 3 more than he ended up with too. (They said some stat that Rivers had like 18 INTs the past 2 seasons, 9 of them were against the Chiefs). And that's been the story of the Chiefs this season. In I think each 3 of their losses they had like 2 should have been INTs that likely would've put the game away, but didn't and then they lose.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,474
545
126
Right, no QB has ever only been on stacked teams. Its just I see some people act like Manning was a god and took total crap teams to the playoffs every year, which isn't true at all.

Brady vs Manning were 2-3 in the AFC Championship (was 2-1 before Manning went to the Broncos). Oh and for the "Brady had godly line and Manning had shit lines" narrative that I've seen (not from you): Brady has been sacked 471 times, Manning 303, in almost the exact same number of games (currently). Even your claim that the Colts line went to shit is a bit odd since his sack numbers didn't really change much (went up a bit in 2007 but then actually arguably lowered in 2008 and 2009, and then 2010 was about average). I'm sure there's things that can explain that even with a worse line, but I'm not sure the difference is as drastic as you seem to believe. It was just that Manning had a neck injury that he'd never gotten properly taken care of and then it was made worse later one. Didn't he also do something stupid like put off getting proper surgery while he tried to just rehab it or something (extending the total time, and the whole time his arm strength deteriorating)?

Looking at it again, yeah maybe Luck hasn't had the better coaches. I was mostly thinking of Caldwell and Dungy, but Dungy and Pagano are probably more equal (defensive minded coaches) or even more to the benefit of Manning. Luck and Manning both had Arians (wasn't a major head coach for either, but he was a good offensive minded coach) so that's a wash. Reich seems like he might be good, so we'll give him an ~Mora at this point.

I was a bit harsh, and there's been some weird narrative off and on the past few years about Wilson like he's gone to shit, when that wasn't the case at all. But then there's also people trying to make it seem like Rodgers has gone to shit and is the actual reason why the Packers aren't that good any more. He had a down year (for him, still wasn't that bad or maybe even bad at all really), but he's not the reason the Packers and have underperformed. He's the reason why they seemed better than they really were. The Packers went from drafting really well to not drafting well and then they haven't been great in free agency lately either. They've had quite a bit of turnover in receivers the past couple of years too I believe.
One point - you're wrong about the AFC Championship head-to-head matchup. Manning and Brady met 4 times in the AFC Championship, with Manning winning 3. They met another time in the playoffs which Brady won, which is where you're getting the 3-2 record in Manning's favor.

But yeah, to get back to the thread - RGIII sucks and many of us called it, despite eits' objections. I didn't bump this thread, but I do like popping in for some good-humored ribbing. Speaking of good-humored ribbing, I wonder where Classy ran off too - I had this same argument with him about Vick.

Regarding Mahomes - let's give him a season or two before we crown him. I like what I've seen so far, but let's see if he can keep it up.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,308
15,469
136
Awesome argument, "I'm going to base my opinion off a very small sample, any other information be damned!" Certainly stats don't tell the whole story, but you saying W-L only matters is every bit as stupid as it ignores that there could be plenty of other reasons for how the game goes.

Have fun with your wins that mean jack shit. Hopefully Alex Smith can return and keep getting your possibly worst franchise in the NFL (and that's saying something) wins to placate stupid fans like you.

Oh yeah, did you see that Snyder has been trying to get the Rubs and Turmp to slip shit into the federal budget (or some other bill that needs passing, think it was related to the shutdown stuff; but they wanted to ram it through before the Democrats get the house and can tell them to fuck off) so he can build a new stadium at the old RFK? As if you didn't need constant reminder of how much of a slimy fucking piece of garbage he is.



Fuck Rivers. He doesn't deserve shit. He's squandered more talent and opportunity than any QB in the history of the league. I hope he never even makes a Super Bowl let alone wins one. If the Chargers had kept Brees, they probably would've won 3 rings, maybe even in a row.

I still can't believe the Chiefs squandered that game like that. Fuckin Reid and his shit playcalling in the 2nd half. That and they sat Berry for the whole 2nd half (WTF, they should've had him in for at minimum that last Chargers drive or even just the fucking 2 point conversion). We saw how much of a difference he makes for the secondary (just making sure they're in the right place, which of course without him out there they fuckup, costing the game). At least it seems like he should be able to go for the playoffs so maybe he can come in and Bob Sanders them to a championship.

Leave it to the Chiefs to fuck up what was set to be an epic pouty Rivers tantrum. He threw an INT with his first pass and that set the tone for the game until like the last 5 minutes. He should've had like 3 more than he ended up with too. (They said some stat that Rivers had like 18 INTs the past 2 seasons, 9 of them were against the Chiefs). And that's been the story of the Chiefs this season. In I think each 3 of their losses they had like 2 should have been INTs that likely would've put the game away, but didn't and then they lose.
Dude, Rivers has 8 (probably soon to be 9) children to feed! Dude needs that free truck and salary bonus! Let's get him a ring and a superbowl MVP!
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
15,213
804
126
This bump is like seeing an old friend!




Better in what sense?

Better pure passer absolutely but overall better QB IDK. Wilson is the more athletic of the two, a better scrambler/broken play guy, plus he's had a much more successful pro career. (albeit with better people around him on both sides of the ball)

Since the purpose of a QB is to lead his team to victory I have to give the slight nod to Wilson based on the results of the team he lead.


For now...

The issue is however far from decided and my suspicion is that by the end of respective career's Luck will emerge as the obvious choice.
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
15,213
804
126
Luck is a better QB than Wilson. Wilson has had a better team around him for most of his career. That is changing fast with Indy’s new offensive line, however.



This bump is like seeing an old friend! :D




Better in what sense?


Better pure passer absolutely but overall better QB IDK. Wilson is the more athletic of the two, a better scrambler/broken play guy, plus he's had a much more successful pro career. (albeit with better people around him on both sides of the ball plus fewer injuries)

Since the purpose of a QB is to lead his team to victory I have to give the slight nod to Wilson based on the results of the team he lead.


For now...

The issue is however far from decided and my suspicion is that by the end of respective career's Luck will emerge as the obvious choice.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,308
15,469
136
Russell Wilson came out on top. It is decided
2 Superbowls and 1 win for Wilson. Only way RG3 matches that is if he gets a Nick Foles type of Superbowl win.


(I mean...it's 2 wins for Wilson if you remove goddamn stupid-ass Pete Carroll from the equation! :mad:)
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
12,305
1,231
126
I think there is a decent chance Luck will be back next year. There is a reason they let him keep all his bonuses.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,474
545
126
I think there is a decent chance Luck will be back next year. There is a reason they let him keep all his bonuses.
I don’t think so. They signed Brissett to a large contract and when Luck was talking to the Colts, they tried to convince him to sit on IR for a year and he declined.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,308
15,469
136
last season was his best season so far, but he fell off so much midway through. I don't think he's deserved the MVP any of his years so far, but not getting a single vote last year is surprising. Not a single vote. How you finish is definitely way more important than how you start, but he still had Seattle competitive into the playoffs, even if his personal numbers weren't as great as they were early in the season. no vote last year, though? that's ridiculous.

OK, the more you look at those votes, the more ridiculous it is: Palmer with a vote, Romo with 2 votes..Carr with 6...lol. No way any of those assclowns should have gotten a single vote in any of the years that Wilson didn't get one. It boggles the mind. ...and I like Romo for a vote here and there, lol.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KMFJD

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,308
15,469
136
Agreed ... Not sure if he should have won it but not one vote is a surprise.


EDIT: And I have to add that I guess actual real-world results don't count for much around here ... otherwise how could Luck have 57% in the poll?
remember, this thread was started, I think, during their first (or second?) season. I argued for Luck of course, but voted Wilson, just because. At that time, it was really between Luck (the only real option) and RG3. So many of those votes were cast before Wilson went to that first SB, and Luck was so obviously very good, despite how shitty Indy is from top to bottom (and pretty much always have been once you remove Manning and Dungy from their history).

I think the only votes for RG3 were from Eits and Eits' multi accounts. :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: Captante
Mar 11, 2004
20,202
2,364
126
The real vote should be what QBs Mahomes is gonna retire next. Since their Luck ran out guess they're going down the Rivers.

And the rumors about Seattle like constantly looking for other QBs is fucking nuts. They supposedly tried to trade Wilson for the Browns 1st (that they used on Mayfield). And there's been other reports that they've shopped him to other teams. Which I don't know what the hell those other teams are thinking either. Wasn't one of them the Vikings (before they signed Cousins)? I think literally only the Chiefs wouldn't be improving by going for Wilson.

Honestly seems that the Seahawks are intent on ruining Wilson's career or trying to piss him off so much he demands to be traded. Its just baffling.
 

manly

Diamond Member
Jan 25, 2000
8,198
125
106
Agreed ... Not sure if he should have won it but not one vote is a surprise.


EDIT: And I have to add that I guess actual real-world results don't count for much around here ... otherwise how could Luck have 57% in the poll?
While I agree with your guys' sentiment, it's not totally surprising. MVP votes are highly correlated with team record, and outside of Wilson's first 3 seasons, the Seahawks have been a perennial wild card team. RW put up an MVP-caliber campaign last season and was in the running for months, but Lamar Jackson put up video game numbers and highlight reels for an unexpected 13-win team. There's as much an element of "bad luck" as there is any bias against Wilson. Jackson was a unanimous winner, but IIRC the Seahawks were really close to 12 wins and getting a first-round bye. In that scenario, I think Wilson gets a sympathy vote from somewhere. :D

@darkswordsman17 I wasn't aware that the Seahawks have constantly been shopping RW across the league, but I'm pretty sure Wilson consoles himself with his league-leading average annual salary. I'd love to be pissed off to the tune of $35M per season. :p (As an aside, it'll be interesting to see if the Cowboys ultimately overpay Dak Prescott, and whether Mahomes shatters the mark by avg'ing $40M per season.)
 
Mar 11, 2004
20,202
2,364
126
While I agree with your guys' sentiment, it's not totally surprising. MVP votes are highly correlated with team record, and outside of Wilson's first 3 seasons, the Seahawks have been a perennial wild card team. RW put up an MVP-caliber campaign last season and was in the running for months, but Lamar Jackson put up video game numbers and highlight reels for an unexpected 13-win team. There's as much an element of "bad luck" as there is any bias against Wilson. Jackson was a unanimous winner, but IIRC the Seahawks were really close to 12 wins and getting a first-round bye. In that scenario, I think Wilson gets a sympathy vote from somewhere. :D

@darkswordsman17 I wasn't aware that the Seahawks have constantly been shopping RW across the league, but I'm pretty sure Wilson consoles himself with his league-leading average annual salary. I'd love to be pissed off to the tune of $35M per season. :p (As an aside, it'll be interesting to see if the Cowboys ultimately overpay Dak Prescott, and whether Mahomes shatters the mark by avg'ing $40M per season.)
Others on that list haven't even taken their teams to the playoffs let alone perennially. Also one of his teammates shows up on that list. I can with absolute certainly say that Wilson is more important to the Seahawks success than Bobby Wagner.

Yeah which is baffling. I think he's top 1-2QB in the league right now.

There's been some chatter that it might be closer to $50mil for Mahomes, but he's also said he's considering how his contract can impact the team's ability to provide talent around him. If I were the Chiefs, I'd have offered him a 10 year $350million contract before last season. Now I'd consider offering him a similar deal but almost entirely guaranteed, with some bonus incentives. Which, they could easily end up paying him $500million over the next 10 years and feel it was money well spent.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY