And this is why the Union is in danger.

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Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Actually in this case I'm being totally serious. There are many, many progressives who argue that anyone who wishes should be free to come to the USA. Why do you think so many maps today show borders everywhere except between the USA and Mexico, where we have a "border region"? Why do you think hundreds of thousands of people violently protest whenever there is any measure aimed at curbing illegal immigration or repatriating illegals? I know you don't support illegal immigration, but many - probably most - of your progressive brethren do not believe the USA has the moral right to enforce a border, expel illegals, or prohibit new illegals from coming.

What maps? I don't mean maps on sites like La Raza but real, legit maps? I have not seen this so if they exist I am curious to see them. I have heard people spout this nonsense about the border but if legit map makers are actually paying attention to it I would be stunned.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
I know you don't support illegal immigration, but many - probably most - of your progressive brethren do not believe the USA has the moral right to enforce a border, expel illegals, or prohibit new illegals from coming.
I never knew I was a progressive. What's that anyways,a new buzzword coined by the far right to describe anybody that's not in lock step with them? Hell I was still trying to figure out how I was a Liberal and know you guys pull this on me:sneaky:
Most people I know, the vast majority of them, aren't for letting illegals in or staying once they are here... unless they happen to know one personally and he does their lawn cheap.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
What maps? I don't mean maps on sites like La Raza but real, legit maps? I have not seen this so if they exist I am curious to see them. I have heard people spout this nonsense about the border but if legit map makers are actually paying attention to it I would be stunned.
Check your child's classroom - I've see a couple in public schools with "BORDER REGION"
rather than a border.

I never knew I was a progressive. What's that anyways,a new buzzword coined by the far right to describe anybody that's not in lock step with them? Hell I was still trying to figure out how I was a Liberal and know you guys pull this on me:sneaky:
Most people I know, the vast majority of them, aren't for letting illegals in or staying once they are here... unless they happen to know one personally and he does their lawn cheap.
A liberal believes in maximum freedom, reasonably low taxes, and minimal government power over the individual. A liberal believes that wealth is earned, but believes that we have a collective responsibility to help out not only those who can't help themselves (as conservatives do), but also (unlike conservatives) those who could but merely don't help themselves. A liberal believes that the bulk of an individual's labor should benefit himself and his family, although taxes should be sufficient not only for essential government functions but also for desirable non-essential functions. A liberal believes that we cannot force our culture on other countries. A liberal believes in human rights. A liberal believes in the supremacy of the individual.

A progressive believes that the "cult of the individual" (to use Hilary's term) must be destroyed for the benefit of society. A progressive believes that wealth is distributed, not earned, and it is therefore government's responsibility to ensure that wealth is as evenly distributed as is possible (except that the elite are of course due more.) A progressive believes that Marx's dictum, from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs, should be the law of all lands. A progressive believes that we should force our own citizens to accept a hard form of socialism. A progressive believes in human entitlements. A progressive believes in the supremacy of the group, especially government.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Check your child's classroom - I've see a couple in public schools with "BORDER REGION"
rather than a border.


A liberal believes in maximum freedom, reasonably low taxes, and minimal government power over the individual. A liberal believes that wealth is earned, but believes that we have a collective responsibility to help out not only those who can't help themselves (as conservatives do), but also (unlike conservatives) those who could but merely don't help themselves. A liberal believes that the bulk of an individual's labor should benefit himself and his family, although taxes should be sufficient not only for essential government functions but also for desirable non-essential functions. A liberal believes that we cannot force our culture on other countries. A liberal believes in human rights. A liberal believes in the supremacy of the individual.
That's beautiful, almost like a Liberal trying to describe himself in the best possible light.

I take it a Progressive is the Liberals version of the Conservatives NeoCon.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
Werepossum's description of a progressive sounds a lot like a socialist to me.

On a side, I'm not sure I agree with the part where liberals believe they should help others who can, but do not, help themselves. We may be more apt to support welfare programs, but I don't think true liberals want a welfare state. Maybe I'm not a real liberal when it comes to welfare (if what you are describing is actually liberal). Then again, "those who can't help themselves" may be a gray area. Are we talking about people who could work but do not?

I'm not sure what "cult of the individual" means, but I do advocate for more social responsibility.
 
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kinev

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,647
30
91
Since when is the Union in danger? Some idiot spouts off on a talk show and that supposedly shows the Union is in danger? WTF!?!?

The person who posted this is as stupid as the lady with no sense.

"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."

— Alexis de Tocqueville (Democracy in America)
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Some will take it as a good message to go out and be an entrepreneur, but we all know *many* more will take it as justification to slack off. Be comfortable as a bum through life.
Because musicians should probably just kill themselves. Am I right guys?


A progressive believes that the "cult of the individual" (to use Hilary's term) must be destroyed for the benefit of society. A progressive believes that wealth is distributed, not earned, and it is therefore government's responsibility to ensure that wealth is as evenly distributed as is possible (except that the elite are of course due more.) A progressive believes that Marx's dictum, from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs, should be the law of all lands
This sounds about right. The difference between progressive and conservative can be seen by looking at things related to individual rights vs public good.

medicine:
*A progressive will argue that sick people should be treated regardless of how much money they have. (public good)
*A conservative will argue that people should be left to die if they don't have the money. (individual right to refuse treatment)

workplace safety:
*A progressive will argue that safety must be enforced by a government agency like OSHA. (public good)
*A conservative will argue that OSHA is a violation of private property rights because it tells a property owner what he can and cannot do on his own property. (individual rights)
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,137
382
126
I never knew I was a progressive. What's that anyways,a new buzzword coined by the far right to describe anybody that's not in lock step with them? Hell I was still trying to figure out how I was a Liberal and know you guys pull this on me:sneaky:

FLIP FLOP FLIP FLIP FLIP FLOP

Haven't you herd? Republican's extent of political prowess is slapping labels on people. They are the intellectual equivalent of that drone moping up and down the isles at the supermarket banging his price gun on things.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
FLIP FLOP FLIP FLIP FLIP FLOP

Haven't you herd? Republican's extent of political prowess is slapping labels on people. They are the intellectual equivalent of that drone moping up and down the isles at the supermarket banging his price gun on things.

Sorry, the "tea baggers" might find some fault with the left here, too.

But Red Dawn a progressive? LOL :D
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,158
6
81
FLIP FLOP FLIP FLIP FLIP FLOP

Haven't you herd? Republican's extent of political prowess is slapping labels on people. They are the intellectual equivalent of that drone moping up and down the isles at the supermarket banging his price gun on things.

As if Democrats dont slap labels. Are you that fucking blind?
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
Since you are a fair, non partisan man, tell me what is the extent of the political prowess of Democrats is

Winning huge majorities in both houses then squabbling amongst themselves, continually flip-flopping on the issues, and then when all their plans fail or backfire, blame Republicans.
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Well there are some people too dumb for words.

Recently I came into a monetary windfall, not a fortune but a nice amount. While walking through Costco I noticed some HDTV's that were are a tempting price. While I easily could afford it in the back of my mind the thought that we are still not over this economic crisis and that things could get bad real quick resonated. I didn't need it and I also knew that in case of things going south that this money could be a saving grace. Obviously I'm not the only one thinking like this, although there is more consumer confidence as of late it's still not a booming economy and people are still hunkering down. The vast majority of us understand that the Government isn't going to be able to make things all better without us doing our part no matter what party we support.
Sure there are many fools but they are but a small minority, much smaller than they were before this economic downturn.

No, I'm not worried about the Union. I'm not even worried about the red asses that buy into the bullshit you hear of Savage Nation or those that listen to Faux news or MSNBC. They are just Reactionaries who start to many threads in forums like this.






"Monetary windfall" eh Red? Are you sure you didn't get a bit of Obama's stash?
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,502
1
81
The closest I have heard about a danger to the union is the governor of Texas saying about something secession from the union.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Sucks how it's always the good ones trying to leave. Why don't we ever hear about Mississippi trying to leave???

Mississippi tried to leave the Union, soldiers dressed in blue came and burned the major cities in an effort to keep Mississippi. Now, the other Union states give handouts / money to a significant portion of the population that does nothing but eat and produce more babies, thus getting more handouts. Why leave now with all of the social welfare programs in place that the Feds perpetuate?
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Winning huge majorities in both houses then squabbling amongst themselves, continually flip-flopping on the issues, and then when all their plans fail or backfire, blame Republicans.

CopyofGOP_BlockBlame-at92-500x.jpg



¿Qué





--
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
That's beautiful, almost like a Liberal trying to describe himself in the best possible light.

I take it a Progressive is the Liberals version of the Conservatives NeoCon.
Classical liberalism is probably the ultimate in the human condition, being based on freedom as an ideal. The only problem is that liberalism has evolved to not accept reasonable consequences for one's actions. These are off-the-cuff idealized descriptions, granted, but then almost no one is a completely pure liberal or conservative. People are generally somewhat pragmatic as well as moved by their own biases. Few liberals want drug cartels to have free rein inside the USA; few conservatives want people to die rather than be treated in emergency rooms. Although it's always difficult to recognize one's own biases and prejudices, I know for instance that I differ from true libertarianism (arguably classical liberalism) on many issues, such as the need to protect the environment overriding one's natural right to dispose of one's property as one sees fit, or that Social Security and welfare (applied narrowly) are worth the loss of individual freedom to provide a safety net of socialized (as opposed to private) charity and are better to maintain an individual who is too old or infirm to do for himself with a certain dignity and a lifestyle at the poverty level in a modern society.

Werepossum's description of a progressive sounds a lot like a socialist to me.

On a side, I'm not sure I agree with the part where liberals believe they should help others who can, but do not, help themselves. We may be more apt to support welfare programs, but I don't think true liberals want a welfare state. Maybe I'm not a real liberal when it comes to welfare (if what you are describing is actually liberal). Then again, "those who can't help themselves" may be a gray area. Are we talking about people who could work but do not?

I'm not sure what "cult of the individual" means, but I do advocate for more social responsibility.
A progressive is a socialist or worse, dedicated to achieving through slower means what his brethren in Cuba achieved via revolution. As with liberals and conservatives not all progressives are in favor of full socialism (i.e. communism), but they seem to be generally more radical than are classical liberals and conservatives. Another good definition of a progressive would be a statist, as he is dedicated to increasing the power of the state at the expense of the individual.

Perhaps a better description of a liberal's view of welfare would be that liberals tend to see failure to succeed as evidence of inability to succeed, due either to personal deficiencies or more likely to systemic failures and prejudice. I think the main differences between a classical liberal and a conservative on the welfare state are first, a wide difference in how many people they think can truly not take care of themselves, and second, the liberal belief that we collectively have a responsibility to take care of those who do not take care of themselves even though they could. A progressive on the other hand welcomes all to welfare as everyone has an inherent right to the necessities of life regardless of whether or not he choose to contribute - and of course each new welfare deadbeat increases government's power and contributes to the leveling of society. (And an anarchist believes that no one should receive welfare even though he's probably on it.)

A good example of people who could help themselves but don't would be someone who drops out of school and maybe works a minimum amount at a minimum wage job. He could have finished high school - but he'd rather smoke dope and play video games. He could take classes to get his G.E.D. or specialized training - but he doesn't. He could show up early, stay late, work hard, look for what needs to be done without waiting to be told, volunteer to learn new skills, and generally be an exceptional employee who will work his way up the ladder to success - but it's easier to be a slacker. So what does society owe him? A conservative would say not a damned thing, though probably relenting for things like access to free life-saving emergency care and free education for his kids. A liberal would say society owes him as many second chances as he "needs", that society needs to provide free adult education opportunities (and pay him while he attends) and welfare when he is between jobs, that society needs to force people to pay him a "living wage". And a progressive would say he deserves to have the government take money from the "more fortunate" and give it to him. Each can provide some justification for his position: He failed to take advantage of the opportunities afforded by living in the greatest country on Earth; Just because he screwed up doesn't mean we shouldn't take from others to give him a chance to become more productive and therefor successful - that's promoting the general welfare and the common good; Society discriminates and his chances were not nearly as good as the chances that many others had, so he deserves the same rewards and generally the same lifestyle that other people have.