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And the embargo against Cuba will remain in place...

Originally posted by: Nitemare
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...9/us.castro/index.html


"Asked whether Castro's resignation would change U.S. policy, Negroponte said, "I can't imagine that happening any time soon."


What a douche...not even an "It's a start" or a "We will see", just a "Not while I am appointed" answer.
Click to expand...

True, his answer could have been a bit more hopeful but in reality he is correct. Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country. One way they could show this is by freeing political prisoners and/or holding free and open elections(not the shams of before).
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Nitemare
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...9/us.castro/index.html


"Asked whether Castro's resignation would change U.S. policy, Negroponte said, "I can't imagine that happening any time soon."


What a douche...not even an "It's a start" or a "We will see", just a "Not while I am appointed" answer.
Click to expand...

True, his answer could have been a bit more hopeful but in reality he is correct. Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country. One way they could show this is by freeing political prisoners and/or holding free and open elections(not the shams of before).
Click to expand...

""The international community should work with the Cuban people to begin to build institutions that are necessary for democracy and eventually this transition ought to lead to free and fair elections," Bush said"

Yet any American that wants to assist will be jailed...
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Nitemare
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...9/us.castro/index.html


"Asked whether Castro's resignation would change U.S. policy, Negroponte said, "I can't imagine that happening any time soon."


What a douche...not even an "It's a start" or a "We will see", just a "Not while I am appointed" answer.
Click to expand...

True, his answer could have been a bit more hopeful but in reality he is correct. Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country. One way they could show this is by freeing political prisoners and/or holding free and open elections(not the shams of before).
Click to expand...

Okay, reconcile that viewpoint with our status with China.
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Nitemare
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...9/us.castro/index.html


"Asked whether Castro's resignation would change U.S. policy, Negroponte said, "I can't imagine that happening any time soon."


What a douche...not even an "It's a start" or a "We will see", just a "Not while I am appointed" answer.
Click to expand...

True, his answer could have been a bit more hopeful but in reality he is correct. Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country. One way they could show this is by freeing political prisoners and/or holding free and open elections(not the shams of before).
Click to expand...

It's got nothing to do with freedom, and everything to do with our demanding they cowtow to our demands. We sure trade with China, and they're hardly a model democracy.

Why is it different with China? Because they do allow virtually slave labor for our benefit, making our goods, profiting our companies.

We trade with plenty of countries who are not democracies, in fact. No, if you want to see the problem, look at the US factories without any worker or environmental protections in Mexico under NAFTA, look at our desire to do the same in Central American countries with CAFTA, and recognize that Cuba would have no part of that.

It's easy to understand - the reason for the policy is our economic demands, and the spin, the justification/rationalization/cover for the embargo is 'oh, they don't have freedom'.

Funny enough, few Americans notice the inconsistencies. They just sort of defer to the government, they must know what's best.

It's not that Cuba isn't terribly flawed, it's that we're selfishly harming then far more than they already are, with the embargo. Not to mention the Florida anti-Castro Cubans...

I don't cheer the Cuban system, I deplore its problems - but I cheer their independence from being a slave camp for the American economy.

For that matter, we were friendly with Batista...
 
With regard to Cuba, the US is like a child or divorcee who absolutely must have the last word. Reminds me of "Hell has no fury like a woman scorned."
 
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Nitemare
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...9/us.castro/index.html


"Asked whether Castro's resignation would change U.S. policy, Negroponte said, "I can't imagine that happening any time soon."


What a douche...not even an "It's a start" or a "We will see", just a "Not while I am appointed" answer.
Click to expand...

True, his answer could have been a bit more hopeful but in reality he is correct. Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country. One way they could show this is by freeing political prisoners and/or holding free and open elections(not the shams of before).
Click to expand...

Okay, reconcile that viewpoint with our status with China.
Click to expand...

Not that I support the embargo, but it doesn't take a genius to reconcile it. China is the future. The US cannot challenge China in the way it can challenge a country like Cuba.

Canadians and Europeans have been supporting the dictatorship in Cuba for years, but it's a small potato. The US doing the same in China would destroy us.

You have to pick your fights. That is only to be expected.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Nitemare
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...9/us.castro/index.html


"Asked whether Castro's resignation would change U.S. policy, Negroponte said, "I can't imagine that happening any time soon."


What a douche...not even an "It's a start" or a "We will see", just a "Not while I am appointed" answer.
Click to expand...

True, his answer could have been a bit more hopeful but in reality he is correct. Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country. One way they could show this is by freeing political prisoners and/or holding free and open elections(not the shams of before).
Click to expand...

Okay, reconcile that viewpoint with our status with China.
Click to expand...

Not that I support the embargo, but it doesn't take a genius to reconcile it. China is the future. The US cannot challenge China in the way it can challenge a country like Cuba.

Canadians and Europeans have been supporting the dictatorship in Cuba for years, but it's a small potato. The US doing the same in China would destroy us.

You have to pick your fights. That is only to be expected.
Click to expand...

You proved his point, that the claim to the principle of supporting freedom as the issue isn't the issue, it's about our interests. For whatever reason, you pretended to disagree with him.

Your answer is like when someone says "if we stand for equal law for everyone, why did this case of blatant favoritism for a rich person happen", and you say, obviously the money.

That sort of ignores the premise/topic, questioning whether the 'noble principle' cited for one action is really the reason, or is a cover story for it.

If we can't stand by the principle for China, then what business do we have doing it with the 'small potatoes' country? It's not as if we're talking about something harmless.

No, it's time for the issue to be discussed more honestly, that we're not trying to help the Cuban people, really, we're harming them for our companies' selfish interests.

Remember all the talk about the Iraq war being for the good of the Iraq people, for their freedom and prosperity, and how that has worked for them?

On and on - look at NAFTA, it included $3 billion for environmental protections from the predictable disasters; less than 10% of that was actually spent and the disasters are there.

But the benefits to the companies who pushed it through - those aren't at 10%. They're doing fine. Mexican workers? American workers? Not so much.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Nitemare
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...9/us.castro/index.html


"Asked whether Castro's resignation would change U.S. policy, Negroponte said, "I can't imagine that happening any time soon."


What a douche...not even an "It's a start" or a "We will see", just a "Not while I am appointed" answer.
Click to expand...

True, his answer could have been a bit more hopeful but in reality he is correct. Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country. One way they could show this is by freeing political prisoners and/or holding free and open elections(not the shams of before).
Click to expand...

Okay, reconcile that viewpoint with our status with China.
Click to expand...

Not that I support the embargo, but it doesn't take a genius to reconcile it. China is the future. The US cannot challenge China in the way it can challenge a country like Cuba.

Canadians and Europeans have been supporting the dictatorship in Cuba for years, but it's a small potato. The US doing the same in China would destroy us.

You have to pick your fights. That is only to be expected.
Click to expand...

While I agree with that, it's a little dishonest to put your answer in human rights and moral terms as Cadsortaguy did while ignoring the 500lb gorilla in the room.
 
Can't have Commie land becoming a success. Have to squeeze and squeeze. The whole system of capitalistic greed is at stake.
 
Originally posted by: Craig234

You proved his point, that the claim to the principle of supporting freedom as the issue isn't the issue, it's about our interests. For whatever reason, you pretended to disagree with him.

Your answer is like when someone says "if we stand for equal law for everyone, why did this case of blatant favoritism for a rich person happen", and you say, obviously the money.

That sort of ignores the premise/topic, questioning whether the 'noble principle' cited for one action is really the reason, or is a cover story for it.
Click to expand...

I think claiming human rights could be one of many issues in a complex situation.
 
?It is not we non-interventionists who are isolationists. The real isolationists are those who impose sanctions and embargoes on countries and peoples across the globe and who chose to use force overseas to promote democracy?a counterproductive approach that actually leads the U.S. to be more resented and more isolated in the world.??Ron Paul
 
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country.
Click to expand...
I believe that it would happen MUCH more quickly if we were to lift the embargo and let the nature of capitalism take its course -- see also: China, Iran, Vietnam, etc.

It will just take time...

EDIT: Americans simply need to stop being so damn impatient. Each and every one of our enemies, and potential enemies, thinks in terms of multiple generations to overcome their adversaries; while Americans tend to think in terms of seasons, or getting everything wrapped up in the time it takes to watch a two-part miniseries!

Unlike many, I have learned a valuable lesson from the Vietnam and Iraq debacles.

Open relations, allow for open trade, of both goods and ideas; and the rest of Cuba's transition toward freedom will happen naturally...

bet?
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: Craig234

You proved his point, that the claim to the principle of supporting freedom as the issue isn't the issue, it's about our interests. For whatever reason, you pretended to disagree with him.

Your answer is like when someone says "if we stand for equal law for everyone, why did this case of blatant favoritism for a rich person happen", and you say, obviously the money.

That sort of ignores the premise/topic, questioning whether the 'noble principle' cited for one action is really the reason, or is a cover story for it.
Click to expand...

I think claiming human rights could be one of many issues in a complex situation.
Click to expand...

I'm the first one who would like it to be a priority in our policy - for China and Cuba.

The problem is when it's used to hide the actual policy motives.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country.
Click to expand...
I believe that it would happen MUCH more quickly if we were to lift the embargo and let the nature of capitalism take its course -- see also: China, Iran, Vietnam, etc.

It will just take time...
Click to expand...

^^^

winner! :thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Can't have Commie land becoming a success. Have to squeeze and squeeze. The whole system of capitalistic greed is at stake.
Click to expand...

There has never been concern that a "commie land" would ever become a success. From an economic standpoint, the brand of communism that Castro practices is flawed to the core. Just look to North Korea. It does just fine keeping itself down.

So capitalism is not what's a stake here. The issue here is/was/always will be the Cuban exiles in Florida. And if there is greed involved, then it's been Castro's greed of power, in refusing to allow proper democracy after all these decades.

When Cuba allows a genuine democracy again, and allows its exiles to return, then I am quite sure that the embargo will lift. The China analogy doesn't work, because to compare it to this case, Taiwan would have to be on US soil and its Chinese expats to vote in US elections.
 
America doesn't even have Democracy anymore, I don't get why we have to force it down other countries throats. Why aren't we making China democratic since they're pulling our strings now.
 
Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
America doesn't even have Democracy anymore, I don't get why we have to force it down other countries throats. Why aren't we making China democratic since they're pulling our strings now.
Click to expand...

You don't vote? 😕
 
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country.
Click to expand...
I believe that it would happen MUCH more quickly if we were to lift the embargo and let the nature of capitalism take its course -- see also: China, Iran, Vietnam, etc.

It will just take time...
Click to expand...


I don't, but that's just my opinion.
 
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Nitemare
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...9/us.castro/index.html


"Asked whether Castro's resignation would change U.S. policy, Negroponte said, "I can't imagine that happening any time soon."


What a douche...not even an "It's a start" or a "We will see", just a "Not while I am appointed" answer.
Click to expand...

True, his answer could have been a bit more hopeful but in reality he is correct. Just because Fidel is gone doesn't mean our stance on them should instantly change. They will have to show that they are moving towards a politically free country. One way they could show this is by freeing political prisoners and/or holding free and open elections(not the shams of before).
Click to expand...

It's got nothing to do with freedom, and everything to do with our demanding they cowtow to our demands. We sure trade with China, and they're hardly a model democracy.
Click to expand...

I don't think the bar has to be set at "model democracy". <-answers Arkaign's question too.

All it would take in my book is for them to start "moving towards a politically free country" as I stated and I provided one way they could show that. Sure, China isn't perfect, nor close to being even "good" IMO but they have made strides over the past decades(but again no where near perfect and have taken some steps back on some things). I think you people are trying too hard to pigeon hole my stance as a hardline one. It's anything but hardline but it does have qualifications. Just because leadership is formally changed to a brother doesn't mean we abandon all old policies. THEY have to show some positive direction moves so we can soften our stance.
 
Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
America doesn't even have Democracy anymore, I don't get why we have to force it down other countries throats. Why aren't we making China democratic since they're pulling our strings now.
Click to expand...

our expectation for the result of the economic policies toward china is that by helping to grow a middle class we'll help start chinese democracy. history shows that people with economic power demand political power.

whether our policy is effective or not is a different matter.
 
..castro has said for years he doesn't care about the embargo and is getting along just fine. So now you say castro is a liar??
 
Cuba is such a Political hot potato and so ingrained into policy that I'd think it'll be dependent on how Cuban Americans view this before any change is made. If Cuban Americans push for open relations with Cuba, Politicians will begin to push for them too.
 
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