anaylst states owning a home is a scam

[Zebo]

There was a builder that did a a sub-division. It is full of 3500-5000 sqft homes. When you talk about homes in forclosure and not being sold this sub-division has the most. you can walk down any street and still find 4-5 houses for sale or owned by the bank.

Another builder did a sub-division on the other end of town. The houses are 1200-2300 sqft. this area if you put a house on the market its getting sold in a few months vs year +.

when we were looking for a house i was amazed at how many huge houses were being built. I wanted a newer 2k-2300 sqft house. but they were hard to find since nobody was building them.

We own a nice 2000 sqft house and its far larger then we need. 3 bedrooms upstairs, a nice kitchen, dinning room, living room and a office (actually another bedroom).

plus we do have a full basement with a bedroom +family room.


I don't see the need for a 3-4k sqft house. i would rather have more yard.

The sub division where I took a beating there are 28 homes in there out of 90 lots (everyone with a clue stopped building summer 08) and 21 are having 2nd birthdays - most everyone is bank owned now. Some builders tried to stopped the bleeding by moving into them though and sold thier own smaller home which are selling.


Most devolopers and builder are bankrupt. Thing is, in good times, you make dick on a 1400 sqft home...maybe 20K If you're good. vs 100-150 K off McMansions... Which are you going to build?

 

[Darwin333]

Read on Darwin it was 230 bundles. 3865 sqft ranch home with 12/14 pitch and lots of hips. 22K was cheap as fuck. You should should know that.

Yeah, just read that. That makes a whole lot more sense on the area. Are you sure about the pitch though, maybe its 14/12 (14 inch rise per 12 inch run) which would be akin to a church steeple. I have seen it before but its rather rare and definitely hard as hell to work on.

Regardless, 230 bundles would be 76 squares of "cheap" shingles (most 40 years and below) or between 57-46 squares of the heavier architectural shingles. Even using the worst case scenarios, considering that it sounds like the roof is damn near straight up and cut up you got one hellofa deal. Not to mention copper currently being around $4 a lb so your trim alone took a decent chunk of that $22K.

 

[Zebo]

What's funny is Google is still showing my old shake it looks like. That was 4 months ago. Guess they don't update. probably from last winter by looks of ground.

I think shingles were ~4800, Chip board decking ~2500, paper and copper ~1500 rest labor. I get wholesale on all materials having account at wholesalers. Oh and there were 1000 dump fee too.

 

[DrPizza]

I have a small brick home with a basement. Even with an attached garage it cost me around $4,800 to replace the old shingles (Asphalt) and redo the roof. They did the entire job in one day. I think most houses are just too large. If you add a couple of rooms and then the typical 3 car garage, plus complicate the roof design then the Roof could easily be twice the size. It is a matter of size of the house.

Americans do not need these large houses, they just think that is what they need. Just watch a few of those home design and house hunting shows and you will understand that Americans are nuts. In a lot of locations in Europe you just cant get a house as large as some locations in the USA. It is a matter of the cost of real estate. There is just not enough room.

A square (100 sq ft) of shingles is about $50 (or even less). Considering it was a one day job, that's a nice profit they made from you.

 

[Zebo]

A square (100 sq ft) of shingles is about $50 (or even less). Considering it was a one day job, that's a nice profit they made from you.

I don't think that's right. 1 square uses 3-4 bundles. Bundles cost $18-28 each. So well over $50. Then he didnt say how many it took a day.

Regardless. Many of you are talking about simply over laying shingles. This is simple compared to either replacement or getting down to rafters and R&R. Overlay will not pass FHA so if you think you'll get away with that, don't.

 

[ultimatebob]

This calculator on the New York Times does a good job of showing when it's a good time to rent and a good time to buy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/b...r=1&ex=1182398400&en=f6ead6dc0df39d27&ei=5070

One thing to keep in mind when making the decision is realtor fees and closing costs. Once the realtors, lawyers, home inspectors, mortgage agents, and government get their cut, you're losing about 6% of the value of the home to fees and taxes when you buy AND when you sell a property. Unless you live in an area where rents are insanely high compared to home purchase prices, it will take you several years make up the savings difference after factoring in those fees. If you're not planning on staying in the property for a while, it doesn't make to buy unless you're planning on making a ton of improvements to improve the resale value.

 

[Darwin333]

I don't think that's right. 1 square uses 3-4 bundles. Bundles cost $18-28 each. So well over $50. Then he didnt say how many it took a day.

Regardless. Many of you are talking about simply over laying shingles. This is simple compared to either replacement or getting down to rafters and R&R. Overlay will not pass FHA so if you think you'll get away with that, don't.

I surely don't know of any $50 a square shingles and if I did I probably wouldn't use them. Shingles are currently going for $65 - $75ish (on the very low end) for anything that I would actually use.

The shingles are the very last thing you want to skimp on. You get a ton of value for just a few percent more. No need to go to the other extreme either unless you are going for aesthetics but like most things you don't want to depend on the cheapest item on the shelf to keep the weather outside of your house.

 

[LegendKiller]

I also think that one key difference people gloss over (and I am guilty of this also at times) is that a rental property IS NOT YOURS. You cannot alter it to any great extent, you cannot usually improve it, and you're always on the hook for any damages outside of normal wear and tear.

That's not even to mention that a rental is usually built with builder-grade material, so you don't get anything really nice.

This may not be a big deal to many people, but to many others it's a huge deal. I may not care about making my "home", but my wife wants to paint, improve, and make our living space our own.

This is a huge psychological difference that many forget and it's one that has tremendous intangible value.

 

[Ozoned]

I don't think that's right. 1 square uses 3-4 bundles. Bundles cost $18-28 each. So well over $50. Then he didnt say how many it took a day.

Regardless. Many of you are talking about simply over laying shingles. This is simple compared to either replacement or getting down to rafters and R&R. Overlay will not pass FHA so if you think you'll get away with that, don't.

1 sq'=3 bundles (most common shingles)

Figure 1 person per square per hour for application.

FHA allows up to 3 layers on UBC code home if they are not leaking when overlayed. It really depends on your roof load design.

My wife and I did our house in summer of 2009. It was a total of 38 sq' and cost $2,000 for tamko heritage 30 year shingles.

Local contracters quoted 3 times material for labor. ($8,000 total job + another $100.00 Sq' if I wanted to tear off old stuff)

 

[Zebo]

I also think that one key difference people gloss over (and I am guilty of this also at times) is that a rental property IS NOT YOURS. You cannot alter it to any great extent, you cannot usually improve it, and you're always on the hook for any damages outside of normal wear and tear.

That's not even to mention that a rental is usually built with builder-grade material, so you don't get anything really nice.

This may not be a big deal to many people, but to many others it's a huge deal. I may not care about making my "home", but my wife wants to paint, improve, and make our living space our own.

This is a huge psychological difference that many forget and it's one that has tremendous intangible value.

Yeah david forgets the intangibles and psychological value. Nice to not worry about eviction, steady rent payment, mods to home fixing it up just the way you want it, etc all these have indeterminate value but some value nevertheless we all need to judge on an individual basis. If strictly looking at things from an actuarial POV home ownership is generally not a good investment comparatively and should only be purchased during downturns.

I sotra did. And my value stems from being able to go fishing or shooting out my back door try that with a rental. But really I wish my wife could dig a single wide. When I was building I bought one for 6k used and loved it. House not so much love. Also, way too expensive especially living with people who have expensive tastes. Marble floors, high end appliances, tall ceilings blah.

If I ever got the big D I get another cheap used single wide all metal. Trivial to work on with all plumbing/electrical elevated and simple window unit, costs no more than $100 a month in utilities, and hardly never needs maintenance with it's galvanized metal shell.

 

[Zebo]

1 sq'=3 bundles (most common shingles)

Figure 1 person per square per hour for application.

FHA allows up to 3 layers on UBC code home if they are not leaking when overlayed. It really depends on your roof load design.

My wife and I did our house in summer of 2009. It was a total of 38 sq' and cost $2,000 for tamko heritage 30 year shingles.

Local contracters quoted 3 times material for labor. ($8,000 total job + another $100.00 Sq' if I wanted to tear off old stuff)

Yeah it's always 'cheaper' to DIY. 'cheaper is in quotes because if something goes wrong like you fall off roof and break back or half ass work is done savings is for naught.... Some things I do but some not because my time is worth too much. Don't forget he has to pay workman's comp, labor, SS, unemployment, liability insurance, trucks and insure them. Believe me he's not getting rich off one house. CUT THROAT business with razor margins house to house. I know guy didnt make but $500 on me but i also knew he wanted to keep his people working - because I know him.

I've turned lots of places and lost my ass first couple when I thought I could be sneaky and get away with overlay.

 

[dmcowen674]

I also think that one key difference people gloss over (and I am guilty of this also at times) is that a rental property IS NOT YOURS. You cannot alter it to any great extent, you cannot usually improve it, and you're always on the hook for any damages outside of normal wear and tear.

That's not even to mention that a rental is usually built with builder-grade material, so you don't get anything really nice.

This may not be a big deal to many people, but to many others it's a huge deal. I may not care about making my "home", but my wife wants to paint, improve, and make our living space our own.

This is a huge psychological difference that many forget and it's one that has tremendous intangible value.

No one owns their home or anything in the U.S.

Everyone is renting their land and buildings from the Government.

The Government can take it away from you at any given second even if you are current with your rent ever since the Eminent Domain ruling around 2005.

 

[Patranus]

No one owns their home or anything in the U.S.

Everyone is renting their land and buildings from the Government.

The Government can take it away from you at any given second even if you are current with your rent ever since the Eminent Domain ruling around 2005.

The government can try and take my land but I would defend my land with my life.

The reason the government feels it can step all over people is because people have become pussies and no longer stand up to government.

 

[Zebo]

You don't really think they are going to let us keep guns when we hit about 50% unemployment and dystopia is upon us.

 

[JSt0rm]

The government can try and take my land but I would defend my land with my life.

The reason the government feels it can step all over people is because people have become pussies and no longer stand up to government.

You just went on the list buddy. Believe me if its just your cranky ass with a shotgun stopping a new interstate...well we don't build them but still...they would just kill you.

 

[LegendKiller]

No one owns their home or anything in the U.S.

Everyone is renting their land and buildings from the Government.

The Government can take it away from you at any given second even if you are current with your rent ever since the Eminent Domain ruling around 2005.

Please, the government can't just take the home at will and cannot take it without consideration. Yet again, you're full of shit.

 

[ciba]

This calculator on the New York Times does a good job of showing when it's a good time to rent and a good time to buy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/b...r=1&ex=1182398400&en=f6ead6dc0df39d27&ei=5070

One thing to keep in mind when making the decision is realtor fees and closing costs. Once the realtors, lawyers, home inspectors, mortgage agents, and government get their cut, you're losing about 6% of the value of the home to fees and taxes when you buy AND when you sell a property. Unless you live in an area where rents are insanely high compared to home purchase prices, it will take you several years make up the savings difference after factoring in those fees. If you're not planning on staying in the property for a while, it doesn't make to buy unless you're planning on making a ton of improvements to improve the resale value.

This is a good calculator from a housing perspective, but I think it falls short on a rental perspective. Based on my observation, people move more frequently when they rent, which is a significant cost.

I'd love to see a real good DCF model evaluating rent vs. buy.

 

[waggy]

Please, the government can't just take the home at will and cannot take it without consideration. Yet again, you're full of shit.

yes and no.

what he i is saying is if they Government wants the land they will take it. sure they will give you a shit amount for it but they will take it.

better hope Costco does not want your land. they will get it and for a low amount.

 

[rudder]

Even if I had a 30 year mortgage and ended up pay $350,000 interest over those 30 years, and even if I sold my house for what I paid for it... My monthly cost even factoring in upkeep etc... would still be a lot less than rent.

 

[JSt0rm]

well Tennessee rent is like 300 a month and a house is probably 80k.

 

[Atreus21]

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticke...09285.html?tickers=REZ,IYR,XHB,HD,LOW,DHI,PHM


I think he is basically right on some of his general points, but the fact that renting is far superior to me is sort of a joke.

I mean, when you rent, you pay for the upkeep, maintenance, and all of those other things and you don't get the benefit obtaining a principal interest in the property.

Renting gives you a 0% return or even a a negative return.

I'm not saying homes should be looked at as an investment, thats where I agree with him, but the fact we should ALL be renting is preposterous.

It would cost me about $1200-1500 to rent out a similar property that I live in now, with taxes, mortgage, insurance, $ for major repairs, I probably invest close to $1200-1500 per month to actually live here. (sometimes much less sometimes more, case and point I'm buying a new 30 year roof tomorrow)

Only diff is that I am at least paying down principal and after about 10 years, I will not have a loan. that is the HUGE return on investment, not having to pay for a freaking mortgage!!

The renting thing is not only ridiculous, but a complete contradiction in terms. From whom should we all rent? Owners. Retarded.

 

[Zargon]

yes and no.

what he i is saying is if they Government wants the land they will take it. sure they will give you a shit amount for it but they will take it.

better hope Costco does not want your land. they will get it and for a low amount.

only if you are one of the last dumbasses to sell.

be one in the middle when they try and snap it up quick to start doing emminent domain and you can sometimes get 150% of what the house is worth because they once they get emminent domain they start offering 60-80%


the calculator tells me with 1% appreciation Im good to go after 6 years. I will likely see more than that anyways, as most of the shit that lowered the price of home I can fix for about 1000 bucks total since I do it myself, and the yard was an absolute mess thats easy to fix

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

A home is an investment in yourself. You decide what to plant in your yard, what color the walls are, what kind of flooring you want to walk on, whether you can have a dog. It's an investment in a community, a place to belong, a place your kids grew up in.

But there are pin heads like this asshole who see only money.

Owning a home is freedom. Renting a home is like living in your parents basement. You shell out X amount of dollars and you still have to deal with someone elses rules, and in the case of apt. living, shitty parking, asshole neighbors who play music at insane levels at all hours, and a person who can legally enter you home without you being there. SCREW THAT.

I didn't buy a house as an investment, I bought a house as a place to live where I was the King.

 

[zephyrprime]

Renting is not cheap. The cost per square foot is much more to rent than it is to buy if you need a lot of space. Renting is really only a better option if you live by yourself in hence do not need a lot of space.

 

[PricklyPete]

As others have stated, there are other reason's to buy than just financial. I own a home, but have been living in another city in a corporate apartment for the last year for a project...and it looks like I'll be here for another year. At first there were a couple of things I liked about moving back into an apartment. Our weekends freed up some as I was no longer working on some house project each weekend. The apartment is also nice and well appointed, but we definitely started missing things:

1) Not having our own yard to work on things, let my dog out to "play", gardening.
2) Not having my own driveway/garage to work on things. The apartment has a gated parking garage, but forbids us from doing any work on our cars. I have to drive my car 45 minutes to my BIL's house to do any work.
3) Having to get in an elevator to go walk the dog 3-4 times a day.
4) Not being able to get rid of the annoying carpet that I despise in the bedrooms.
5) Not being able to replace the horrible dishwasher that they installed
6) Not being able to grill out whenever I want (there is a communal grill...but when it is nice enough out to use it...the thing is constantly busy and a hassle to time your meal around

I'll happily move back into a house after this. I'm not complaining about my current situation as much as just realizing how much I enjoyed having my own place.