Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll

[rmrf]

Link from ubuntuforums.org

Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll (or how I learned to stop worrying and love the penguin)

A troll will always be successful on a Linux forum, and I'm about to explain why. Despite numerous protests of "Don't feed the trolls" and "The best thing to do is ignore posts like these," people will continue to respond to trolls because trolls (like Linux distros) come in different flavors and varieties. One troll in particular seems particularly impassioned and genuine and so always gets responses:

The "If I can't use it, nobody can" troll

I actually believe this kind of troll is well-intentioned, and that's why people respond. This isn't someone who's trying to just stir up emotions or just laugh at how people respond negatively to her post. This person has genuine concerns, so people try to genuinely address those concerns.

Here's what happens:

Someone with a lot of Windows experience--an insane amount of Windows experience--who knows a lot about programming, web developing, administering servers, DOS commands, etc. hears about Linux from some friends at work. She figures, "Hey, I'll give this a shot. People keep talking about how great it is, and I think I even read an article in 2001 about how it's almost ready for the desktop market. Let's see if it is."

She takes what's touted as a "user-friendly" distro--say, Ubuntu. Ubuntu doesn't recognize her screen resolution. She's used to being able to download a driver to fix that. She can't find the driver. She wants to install some software. So, she does what she usually does in Windows--finds a program on the web, downloads it, and tries to install it. Instead of a wizard, she gets a README file that tells her to type ./configure, make, and make install. Just about everything she tries to do she can't do because she tries to do it the Windows way. She also notes a lack of GUI for several things she's used to having (but that most regular users never need--say, finding the IP address of the computer). After a while, she throws up her hands in frustration. "I'm a programmer, for God's sakes. If I can't figure out Linux, how's an ordinary user ["Joe Sixpack," Grandma, etc.] supposed to figure this out? I'd better tell all these Linux people to stop telling people it's ready for the desktop."

So she signs up for a forum and does just that, not realizing this has been done many, many times before. She's well-intentioned. She wants to help people. What happens? Instead of "Wow! You're the first person to tell us that. We couldn't imagine a long-time Windows user having difficulty with Linux. Well, surely we must go into hiding and develop some more before we can release any Linux distribution to the general public," Linux users rightly get upset. "You're doing it the Windows way." This troll doesn't understand what Linux users are talking about. "The Windows way? The Windows way is the easy way. After all, I haven't had any trouble with it." What she doesn't realize is how long it's taken her to learn the Windows way and that now, like a second language, Linux seems hard not because it is hard but because it's different.

Her assumptions are also flawed. Her logic runs like this

IF var=computing experience, THEN I > the masses
IF var=Linux, THEN I have trouble
THUS, IF var=Linux, the masses have even more trouble

Using a new operating system, however, is a lot like learning a new language--the syntax is different, the vocabulary is different, even the culture is different. But a linguistic expert in English may have more trouble learning Chinese than the expert's four-year-old daughter (who clearly knows less about language than her mother does). Just ask children of immigrants how often they have to translate for their parents. Likewise, someone who is so ingrained with the Windows ways of doing things will have trouble with Linux. Most regular users (not programmers) won't have to ./configure, make, make install and find dependencies. They'll click a few things in Synaptic Package Manager, and all their programs will download and install along with their dependencies. "Regular" users, who know very little about computers, have less to unlearn. They may be accustomed to certain Windows ways of doing things, but ultimately, they're used to just seeing an icon and clicking on it.

Well-intentioned trolls also operate under the assumption that Linux is supposed to work for everyone. It's not. Nor is Windows. Nor is OS X. Contrary to what some companies would have you believe, no OS is for everyone. Now, for some Linux purists, that means not for the weak-hearted. These are the Read the F'in Manual people. They've been with Linux a long time and don't believe that Linux should cater to new users. If new users like Linux, fine. If they don't, they should ah heck off. Others, like me, believe that at least some distros should cater to new users (and many do, actually), but that doesn't mean Linux is for everyone. It's for those with an open mind and certain computing habits. For example, if you use Windows-only software, are a big fan of every commercial computer game that comes out, and have a winmodem, Linux isn't for you. If, however, like the majority of computer users, you do what I call the "basic six," you'll be happy with Linux:

1. Check email/instant message
2. Surf the internet
3. Organize pictures
4. Listen to music
5. Word process
6. Play silly games (Solitaire, Tetris)

The last bad assumption these trolls have is that Linux distros are Linux. They try one distro and assume that all distros must be like that. Then, they start making "suggestions" for how Linux "must" improve in order to woo Windows users, not knowing that many of those "problems" have already been fixed. I've seen these trolls complain that there are too many programs installed for any given task (solution: Ubuntu--one program for each task) or that the boot-up is verbose instead of silent (solution: Mepis, Mandriva, just about any user-friendly distro) or that themes are difficult to install (solution: Gnome) or that there needs to be a Windows clone distro (solution: Linspire). The amazing thing about Linux is how much variety there is. You can choose a lightweight distro or heavyweight one. You can choose a do-it-yourself or an automatic. You can choose KDE, Gnome, Fluxbox, IceWM, XFCE. You can't make judgments about "Linux needs to do this or Linux needs to do that" until you've tried several major distros. And by "try," I don't mean pop the CD in, tinker for a few minutes, and give up.

And we're tired of all the "it should be easy to install like Windows is" arguments. Windows isn't easy to install. And most users don't ever install Windows. Period. It doesn't matter how easy Linux gets to install and configure--people aren't going to adopt it en masse until companies start buying more Linux computers for their employees to use, schools start getting more Linux computers for their students, and companies like Dell start preloading computers with Linux.

Many regard Mac OS X as the most user-friendly operating system around. Well, for a long-time Windows user (me), it was quite difficult to use OS X at first. I had to get used to a whole new set of keyboard shortcuts (Cmd-tab instead of control-tab, Cmd-comma for preferences, etc.). I didn't know how to install software by dragging things from some white disk-looking thing to the Applications folder. I was used to wizards. I didn't know I needed third-party software to turn off the bootup noise. I didn't understand why clicking the + sign on a window didn't maximize it. I didn't understand why minimized Windows wouldn't maximize when I Cmd-tabbed to them. The list goes on and on. I was a frustrated user. I sucked it up, though, and now both my wife and I are proficient in daily Mac OS X tasks. Same for Linux. I sucked it up. Now, I've embraced Synaptic Package Manager, and I can't stand wizards any more. That's twenty years of Microsoft and four months of Linux talking.

By the way, I am not a programmer. I'm not a sys admin, a web admin. I'm not a graphic designer, a game designer, or any kind of engineer. I'm just an ex-English teacher who gave Linux an honest-to-goodness shot, and I'm a total convert now. I'm not anti-Microsoft. I'm not anti-Apple. I'm just pro-Linux and tired of hearing all the same "suggestions" over and over again.

The well-intentioned trolls should save themselves some typing. It's all been done before. And I hope the next time we get one of those trolls, that you just link them to this post. I know I will. I'm tired of typing these rebuttals over and over again.
If you really want to do some good, instead of whining on some Linux forums, do one of the following:

1. Put some of those programming skills to good use and help develop Linux
2. File a bug report at the appropriate distro/software website
3. Donate some money to help Linux developers

Other than that, no one's resting on her laurels. Linux distros are constantly being updated and improved, and new Linux users are popping up every day. Linux isn't for everybody's desktop, but it's ready for many people's desktops (read my sig for more info).

P.S. Here are some links, just to make this post as comprehensive as possible:

Linux equivalents for Windows Programs
The Linux Distribution Chooser
Linux is not Windows
The Ubuntu Guide

Have a good day, everyone!

I thought this was interesting. Not sure of how many people here have seen it, but I did a few searches and nothing came up.

I don't think the author meant for this to be flamebait. I also think some of this could be reversed and go for windows as well. The "basic six" as the author called them could just as easily be done in windows, but the draw to linux is the cost, free.

Discuss but don't troll/flame. =)

EDIT: fixed broken link.

 

[Sunner]

Good post.
Not much of a discussion, but hey, I said something didn't I?

 

[M00T]

Some people don't deserve linux. I hope they take their $200 windows cd to the grave.

 

[DidlySquat]

pwned

 

[santaliqueur]

ive had a redhat box for years now, since about 1997 or so, i think? i never used it very much, and never bothered to learn much about it. i built a tech tour box (dual opteron 246) and decided that windows would never touch that machine. it's been about 4 months now, i tried ubuntu at first, but quickly moved to fedora. i think i'm in the clear, i only boot my windows machine when i need to. basically for dvd ripping/transcoding.

i had a great deal of windows experience (still have it actually), but i'm smart enough to know i wont be able to apply most of that to linux. i know much more about computers than the average user, and about the same as your average supergeek, but i knew i'd be starting not from the beginning, but close to it. i used to use a great deal of pirated software, but now, i still dont pay for anything, but it's all legal. pretty high quality, too. as far as i'm concerned, linux is only complicated because everyone is used to windows. my parents know next to nothing about computers (i have to tell them all the time that google != the internet), run linux. they ovbiously dont install anything, and they dont need to, but they are satisfied.

CJ

 

[fuzzynavel]

I have now shifted 90% of my computing activities to linux in a bid to learn i.e drop myself in the deep end......Breezy badger 5.1 is quite capable and reasonably easy to learn........I only go back to (my somewhat questionable version of) windows xp when I need a BF2 hit.

I could have given up within 5 minutes of installing ubuntu because my graphics card wasn't recognised by the included drivers (X800XL), but I stuck at it and learned.....and overcame the problem....I am no programmer but I am persistent when I get annoyed..

Once linux matures and gets the gaming support that it deserves such as newer versions of cedega etc then I will happily ditch windows!

 

[CTho9305]

Maybe I'll try linux again when I don't have to launch gaim and supertux before XMMS to get sound to work in the first two.

 

[bubbamike]

Yawn fanatics are always looking for straw men to beat. Either Linux is ready for the common man or it isn't. If it isn't then lets stop pretending that it is. Linux is for people who have the time and the desire to play with their computers. It is not for people who want to just turn on the box and have it work with little effort. So beating M$ around the head and creating straw men like in the quoted post is just silly.

Linux users are not an oppressed minority, they are an elite who want to believe that they are an oppressed minority.

 

[Seeruk]

Not quite right....

Linux Users = People
Linux Evangalists who can hear no evil = depressingly sad

 

[nweaver]

Originally posted by: bubbamike
Yawn fanatics are always looking for straw men to beat. Either Linux is ready for the common man or it isn't. If it isn't then lets stop pretending that it is. Linux is for people who have the time and the desire to play with their computers. It is not for people who want to just turn on the box and have it work with little effort. So beating M$ around the head and creating straw men like in the quoted post is just silly.

Linux users are not an oppressed minority, they are an elite who want to believe that they are an oppressed minority.

My Brother in law doesn't have time or desire to play with his computer. I didn't have time/desire to help him fix it over the phone all the time. I put Linux on there, and I get a call about every other month "I want this application, how". Then I SSH into his box, install a similar app. I do this with a few people now. I especially tire of talking them through the install of windows cause their boxes are so hosed. I haven't had to with linux yet.

 

[M00T]

Originally posted by: nweaver

Originally posted by: bubbamike
Yawn fanatics are always looking for straw men to beat. Either Linux is ready for the common man or it isn't. If it isn't then lets stop pretending that it is. Linux is for people who have the time and the desire to play with their computers. It is not for people who want to just turn on the box and have it work with little effort. So beating M$ around the head and creating straw men like in the quoted post is just silly.

Linux users are not an oppressed minority, they are an elite who want to believe that they are an oppressed minority.

My Brother in law doesn't have time or desire to play with his computer. I didn't have time/desire to help him fix it over the phone all the time. I put Linux on there, and I get a call about every other month "I want this application, how". Then I SSH into his box, install a similar app. I do this with a few people now. I especially tire of talking them through the install of windows cause their boxes are so hosed. I haven't had to with linux yet.

The simple truth of the matter is astounding. Linux may not be easy for a windows user, but it sure does make life easier for sys-admins.

 

[drag]

Most Linux guys know were Linux sucks.

Lets see...

Hrm. Here is one that pisses me off:
How on 95% of sound cards that people use nowadays will completely fail to play more then one sound program's output at the same time by default?

That's irritating.

How about:
It's difficult to find cards that work in Linux because:
A. many manufacturers are morons
B. compatable card's compatable chipsets are often swapped for incompatable chipsets to make incompatable cards with no change in the product name.
that is frequently enough irritating.

Having to deal with installing a bunch of dependancies to install a application from source code compile only to find out it won't compile. That makes me pissy. Plus it's to difficult for 99.9% of everybody, and it still fails often enough anyways.

Note being able to veiw certain wmv formats when I want to is irritating. Also webpages with embedded movies that I have to hack around with the html source to find and download is irritating and difficult when compared to Windows.

So on and so forth.

But it's still better then windows for me, by a long shot. Especially with Debian or Ubuntu.

For other people, I don't know so much. For normal email/browse/simple games, linux is great if the machine is setup for them. For extreme power users or sysadmin-y people Linux is superior most of the time. But there is a intermediate gaming crowd that it's not suitable for yet.

 

[rmrf]

Originally posted by: bubbamike
Yawn fanatics are always looking for straw men to beat. Either Linux is ready for the common man or it isn't. If it isn't then lets stop pretending that it is. Linux is for people who have the time and the desire to play with their computers. It is not for people who want to just turn on the box and have it work with little effort. So beating M$ around the head and creating straw men like in the quoted post is just silly.

Linux users are not an oppressed minority, they are an elite who want to believe that they are an oppressed minority.

That's not what the article said at all.

The point of the article was to state that linux != windows. So if you are looking to make the move to linux and be as proficient as you are in windows, you will need to put some time in, and have some patience.

There was a story about a little girl that had only used debian. She knew how to use the package manager to install programs, manipulate config's, etc. She sat down in front of a windows box, and frankly didn't know what to do. For the life of me, I cannot find the article, but you get the point.

It took me a good year, and 3 college classes before I felt comfortable enough to erase my windows install, and switch over. Have patience, and the will to learn something new, and you may find linux to be a breath of fresh air.

Once again, the author is not saying that linux is the end-all be-all, they are saying that as a long time windows user, it took patience and time for them to become comfortable with linux to use it daily.

As drag stated, there are definitely quirks. The sound issue is one of them, and it really bugs me as well. I have found workarounds, and if I wasn't doing "test" installs so frequently, I might have a well tailored linux machine that doesn't need to be touched. But I was the same way with windows, I like to test new things.

I also think the word "troll" was a bit strong, but it gets the point across. If you decide you want to give linux a try, do it, and if you have problems, post them up.

 

[spyordie007]

There have been a lot of great posts here so I'm not going to try and step on anyone's toes however an observation:

I periodically use Linux and have some experience with it; however it's all "play" experience. I have no real "production" experience using Linux as a client machine (in certain server situations this is differant, however that's outside of the scope of this discussion). I have found that Linux is a bit "rough around the edges" for several reasons (such as those that Drag mentioned), not that it does a bad job but just that at times I as a user have to go a bit further than I would on another system to get what I would consider basic funcationality working.

Max OS X is a great example as an alternative. I know less about Mac OS X than I do about Linux however from a usability perspective I am able to pick it up much quicker. The UI (and yes even command prompt) are structured in a way that I can figure out how to do things quicker. Lets face it even if there is a great man page on an application it's easier if I dont have to read it. Granted some of this was due to hardware support (eliminating some of the pain-points with linux) but a lot of this is software as well.

The advantage that Microsoft and Apple have here than Linux (generally) does not is that they have teams dedicated to usability studies and setting things up so that users can figure out how to use them quickly (I'm speaking of both users with previous experience as well as first-timers). Linux generally doesnt have a "centralized" group responsible for this as it's developed more in a "building-block" fashon.

To relate this to automobiles this is basically the differance between a "luxury" car and it's "standard" counterpart. The functionality is pretty much the same, but on the Lexus they've added the additional attention to things like "user experience" and "comfort" in a way that they have not with the Toyota line.

Again I'm not saying that any OS is a clear choice over any other, just explaining an observation.

 

[Genx87]

It sounds like a decent post but this got my attention

And we're tired of all the "it should be easy to install like Windows is" arguments. Windows isn't easy to install. And most users don't ever install Windows. Period.

Installing Windows is one of he most braindead activities you can do while breathing. I am curious how he finds installing Windows hard?

I have only played around with Linux, it honestly doesnt interest me in the least. I would probably be more inclined to try out OSX before Linux.

 

[nweaver]

Originally posted by: Genx87
It sounds like a decent post but this got my attention

And we're tired of all the "it should be easy to install like Windows is" arguments. Windows isn't easy to install. And most users don't ever install Windows. Period.

Installing Windows is one of he most braindead activities you can do while breathing. I am curious how he finds installing Windows hard?

I have only played around with Linux, it honestly doesnt interest me in the least. I would probably be more inclined to try out OSX before Linux.

It was easy, without help, the first time? If it was so easy, then Dell wouldn't bother with restore CD's that automate it all. Not to point at linux and say "see, easy" because some are tough (I dislike the Debian partioning stuff).

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: spyordie007

To relate this to automobiles this is basically the differance between a "luxury" car and it's "standard" counterpart. The functionality is pretty much the same, but on the Lexus they've added the additional attention to things like "user experience" and "comfort" in a way that they have not with the Toyota line.

Again I'm not saying that any OS is a clear choice over any other, just explaining an observation.

**************************************************
Hey, I drive a toyota! its just what your used too.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Installing Windows is one of he most braindead activities you can do while breathing. I am curious how he finds installing Windows hard?

Grab a newbie. See if they can install on a custom system, with a basic XP sp2 disc, on a machine that required them to hit F6 to install drivers during the installation.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: spyordie007
There have been a lot of great posts here so I'm not going to try and step on anyone's toes however an observation:

I periodically use Linux and have some experience with it; however it's all "play" experience. I have no real "production" experience using Linux as a client machine (in certain server situations this is differant, however that's outside of the scope of this discussion). I have found that Linux is a bit "rough around the edges" for several reasons (such as those that Drag mentioned), not that it does a bad job but just that at times I as a user have to go a bit further than I would on another system to get what I would consider basic funcationality working.

Max OS X is a great example as an alternative. I know less about Mac OS X than I do about Linux however from a usability perspective I am able to pick it up much quicker. The UI (and yes even command prompt) are structured in a way that I can figure out how to do things quicker. Lets face it even if there is a great man page on an application it's easier if I dont have to read it. Granted some of this was due to hardware support (eliminating some of the pain-points with linux) but a lot of this is software as well.

The advantage that Microsoft and Apple have here than Linux (generally) does not is that they have teams dedicated to usability studies and setting things up so that users can figure out how to use them quickly (I'm speaking of both users with previous experience as well as first-timers). Linux generally doesnt have a "centralized" group responsible for this as it's developed more in a "building-block" fashon.

To relate this to automobiles this is basically the differance between a "luxury" car and it's "standard" counterpart. The functionality is pretty much the same, but on the Lexus they've added the additional attention to things like "user experience" and "comfort" in a way that they have not with the Toyota line.

Again I'm not saying that any OS is a clear choice over any other, just explaining an observation.

Isn't the Mac OS X command prompt bash, just like in Linux?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: nweaver

Originally posted by: Genx87
It sounds like a decent post but this got my attention

And we're tired of all the "it should be easy to install like Windows is" arguments. Windows isn't easy to install. And most users don't ever install Windows. Period.

Installing Windows is one of he most braindead activities you can do while breathing. I am curious how he finds installing Windows hard?

I have only played around with Linux, it honestly doesnt interest me in the least. I would probably be more inclined to try out OSX before Linux.

It was easy, without help, the first time? If it was so easy, then Dell wouldn't bother with restore CD's that automate it all. Not to point at linux and say "see, easy" because some are tough (I dislike the Debian partioning stuff).

Yes it was and is ridiculously easy. Dells restore CDs are just OEM copies of XP. There isnt any automation involved except move though the prompts like any chimp can do.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Genx87
Installing Windows is one of he most braindead activities you can do while breathing. I am curious how he finds installing Windows hard?

Grab a newbie. See if they can install on a custom system, with a basic XP sp2 disc, on a machine that required them to hit F6 to install drivers during the installation.

How many newbies do you know are building computers with a controller card?

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Genx87
Installing Windows is one of he most braindead activities you can do while breathing. I am curious how he finds installing Windows hard?

Grab a newbie. See if they can install on a custom system, with a basic XP sp2 disc, on a machine that required them to hit F6 to install drivers during the installation.

How many newbies do you know are building computers with a controller card?

Inconsequential.

 

[WelshBloke]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Genx87
Installing Windows is one of he most braindead activities you can do while breathing. I am curious how he finds installing Windows hard?

Grab a newbie. See if they can install on a custom system, with a basic XP sp2 disc, on a machine that required them to hit F6 to install drivers during the installation.

How many newbies do you know are building computers with a controller card?

Inconsequential.

Plus *press f6 and insert floppy* isnt that hard.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: WelshBloke
Plus *press f6 and insert floppy* isnt that hard.

Neither is installing Linux, but some people have problems with it. :beer:

 

[Maximilian]

If your a cheapskate of you dont like big companies or you want to do somthing sad weird and daft that no normal person would ever want to do on their operating system by all means! use linux! Otherwise, stay the hell away from that turkey! Its not better than windows, its not just as easy, it sure as hell isnt worth it and i will gladly give gates my cash for somthing that can do the following:
1. Run my computer, memory management etc etc
2. present info to me in an easy and understandable fashion
3. word process
4. run all my apps, even those intended for earlier crappier os's
5. paint
6. play music
7. record music
8. burn things to a cd
9. play movies
10. surf the web
I could go past 10, some people could go WAY past 10. Moaning over having to pay for a cd that can do ALL that is just sad... Its worth it, so the whole "linux is free so its better" arguement falls flat on its face. You get what you pay for! (unless you pirate it but thats another story)

Basically i dont like linux but i do admire the fact that some guy managed to write this thing and start his own os and now there are many many people working on the thing. He simply did it after gates managed it.