Anandtech to start doing PSU reviews

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
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Isnt the most important to most consumers reliability?

The failure rate of brands and specific lines of PSUs is what i try to gauge from experience because there is very little information out there.

The only other factors i consider are the wattage, and whether its a "generic" or not.

The failure rate isnt an easily testable feature, and the PSU makers are not going to give out these numbers.
 

Operandi

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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AFAIK there is no scientific data on reliability, only anecdotal information. So you could start now but useful information would be about 5 years away.

Doing proper PSU tests isn't easy; SPCR, JonnyGuru, PC Perspective are almost the only ones that do it right so unless Anandtech is going to match that level they shouldn't even bother.
 

MichaelD

Lifer
Jan 16, 2001
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I read the entire announcement article (main AT page) and I was impressed.

They've purchased the correct (expensive) equipment and have a testing methodology planned out already. It's stated that the rails will be properly load tested (ala Johnny Guru and the other good reviewers.) They've even built a proper hush box for noise level testing.

You can't get a proper MTBF rate unless you buy tens of the same exact PS, load them all at 100% and run them until something breaks. Even then, 1 out of 10 isn't exactly a meaningful spec considering the thousands of PSes that the major manuf's churn out every month.

I'm looking forward to the AT PS reviews; it'll be nice to have one of the most trusted review sites on the net doing PS reviews too. :thumbsup:
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
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Originally posted by: MichaelD
I read the entire announcement article (main AT page) and I was impressed.

They've purchased the correct (expensive) equipment and have a testing methodology planned out already. It's stated that the rails will be properly load tested (ala Johnny Guru and the other good reviewers.) They've even built a proper hush box for noise level testing.

You can't get a proper MTBF rate unless you buy tens of the same exact PS, load them all at 100% and run them until something breaks. Even then, 1 out of 10 isn't exactly a meaningful spec considering the thousands of PSes that the major manuf's churn out every month.

I'm looking forward to the AT PS reviews; it'll be nice to have one of the most trusted review sites on the net doing PS reviews too. :thumbsup:

Yeah, on the order of getting something meaningful, youd have to do something on the order of googles hard drive study, or carnegie mellons HD study. They had a pool of a hundreds of thousands of drives.

Obviously this is beyond what AT can reasonably do, im just saying that with power supplies for me its "it can power it" "it cant power it" and "its gonna break"

Things like ripple and efficiency dont matter to me at all unless they are way out of the norm, becuase they dont really affect anything, and almost always apply to generic PSUs.
 

ForumMaster

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2005
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Well i did read the article and i was impressed that they purcahsed the correct testing equipment. the less ripple there is, the more stable the system will be if i understand correctly. they can test how good a PSU is at delivering the correct amount of power, but knowing how long a PSU will last is difficult if not impossible to determine.

does anyone know how Johnny Guru tests his power supplies for example? how is it different from AT's method?
 

Aluvus

Platinum Member
Apr 27, 2006
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Originally posted by: ForumMaster
does anyone know how Johnny Guru tests his power supplies for example? how is it different from AT's method?

It's described briefly in every review; at the top of this page, for example.

Originally posted by: Acanthus
Obviously this is beyond what AT can reasonably do, im just saying that with power supplies for me its "it can power it" "it cant power it" and "its gonna break"

Things like ripple and efficiency dont matter to me at all unless they are way out of the norm, becuase they dont really affect anything, and almost always apply to generic PSUs.

That may be the case for you, but personally I want to see the cover removed, the maker of the capacitors determined, and it wouldn't hurt to find out how they've approached their 12 V rails. Because all of these things can provide important information (about the OEM, the realistic life of the device, and the intelligence of the designers, respectively). Power supplies are a dumping ground of indifference for most users, which is almost certainly why Anandtech never bothered to review them before. But there are those of us that want good, complete information.

It kills me that people will page through enormous reviews of video cards or motherboards, deliberate over all sorts of little details (does it have enough SATA ports? Do I need Firewire?), and then be unwilling to spend a fraction of that effort choosing a power supply. Granted, it's unglamorous, and generally a pain in the butt (specifically because there are very few good, complete reviews available), but then I've never found motherboard shopping to be a joy either.

On paper, their test methodology looks pretty good, and certainly better than most. It will be interesting to see it in practice.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
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Originally posted by: ForumMaster
Well i did read the article and i was impressed that they purcahsed the correct testing equipment. the less ripple there is, the more stable the system will be if i understand correctly. they can test how good a PSU is at delivering the correct amount of power, but knowing how long a PSU will last is difficult if not impossible to determine.

does anyone know how Johnny Guru tests his power supplies for example? how is it different from AT's method?

Are you telling me there has been a case you have run across, EVER, where ripple has been so bad that it causes instability? Im an EECS student and ive never run across this.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
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Sorry, not used to all of the new categories yet.

That does kind of reinforce my point... There are very few factors people really have questions about.

How many rails it has is generally completely meaningless, you just add them together, and having multiple rails has never shown more stability than a single rail.

So you look at the amps, you look at the brand, and you estimate how much power you need...

The only real qustion out there, is which ones dont blow up after 6-12 months.
 

s44

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 2006
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Originally posted by: Acanthus

How many rails it has is generally completely meaningless,
Not if you're doing SLI/CF.

you just add them together
Uh, no.

Anyway, I'm not sure how this won't be redundant with Jonny and HardOCP's excellent efforts. (Except for the sound box, which is neat.) Are they going to test the obscure non-megapower models that those guys often don't?
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
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Originally posted by: s44
Originally posted by: Acanthus

How many rails it has is generally completely meaningless,
Not if you're doing SLI/CF.

you just add them together
Uh, no.

Anyway, I'm not sure how this won't be redundant with Jonny and HardOCP's excellent efforts. (Except for the sound box, which is neat.) Are they going to test the obscure non-megapower models that those guys often don't?

Yes, you do just add them together...

More rails does nothing, im not kidding.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
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Originally posted by: Acanthus
How many rails it has is generally completely meaningless, you just add them together, and having multiple rails has never shown more stability than a single rail.
.

I agree that the whole single rail/split rail is probably more marketing hoo-whee. I hope AT finds the facts and exposes some of this madness.

Why would you split X amps X/3 (or whatever) If it is TRUE split rail? Load balancing? (sheesh . . . :) ) If you are 1/2 load on one #1 X/3 rail you've lost 15% of your total psu amps. If you're then at 1/3 load on #2 X/3 rail you've lost 25% of your total available psu amperage.

Makes no sense to me . . . .

 

Aluvus

Platinum Member
Apr 27, 2006
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Originally posted by: Acanthus

Yes, you do just add them together...

More rails does nothing, im not kidding.

No, you absolutely cannot just add 12 V rail ratings together. Even ignoring the bizarre ways in which power supply designers sometimes create "separate" rails, the simple fact is that very few supplies have a combined 12 V rating (how much total 12 V current they can deliver simultaneously to all the rails together) that is as high as the result you would get simply adding all of the separate rail ratings together.

Multi-rail supplies end up being significantly more complicated than one might like, particularly when some implementations play fast and loose with the details.

This kind of confusion is probably the single strongest argument for more, better power supply reviews to be conducted.

Also btw, there is a thread in the power supply subforum about the relative merits of multi-rail supplies.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
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Originally posted by: Aluvus
Originally posted by: Acanthus

Yes, you do just add them together...

More rails does nothing, im not kidding.

No, you absolutely cannot just add 12 V rail ratings together. Even ignoring the bizarre ways in which power supply designers sometimes create "separate" rails, the simple fact is that very few supplies have a combined 12 V rating (how much total 12 V current they can deliver simultaneously to all the rails together) that is as high as the result you would get simply adding all of the separate rail ratings together.

Multi-rail supplies end up being significantly more complicated than one might like, particularly when some implementations play fast and loose with the details.

This kind of confusion is probably the single strongest argument for more, better power supply reviews to be conducted.

Also btw, there is a thread in the power supply subforum about the relative merits of multi-rail supplies.

While youre right, that operationally they are different, no one device draws enough power to make it an argument of any kind.

If your PC had a friggin stove element to draw off of one rail then yes it would make a difference.

16A+ will power anything on the market, combined or seperate rails.

If anything, having more than one rail makes a system less stable if its all drawing off of one or the other.

But again... just adding them together haphazardly and watching brands will do more than buying PSUs for their "ripple" or overshooting your power requirements by 300w.
 

PurdueRy

Lifer
Nov 12, 2004
13,837
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Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Aluvus
Originally posted by: Acanthus

Yes, you do just add them together...

More rails does nothing, im not kidding.

No, you absolutely cannot just add 12 V rail ratings together. Even ignoring the bizarre ways in which power supply designers sometimes create "separate" rails, the simple fact is that very few supplies have a combined 12 V rating (how much total 12 V current they can deliver simultaneously to all the rails together) that is as high as the result you would get simply adding all of the separate rail ratings together.

Multi-rail supplies end up being significantly more complicated than one might like, particularly when some implementations play fast and loose with the details.

This kind of confusion is probably the single strongest argument for more, better power supply reviews to be conducted.

Also btw, there is a thread in the power supply subforum about the relative merits of multi-rail supplies.

While youre right, that operationally they are different, no one device draws enough power to make it an argument of any kind.

If your PC had a friggin stove element to draw off of one rail then yes it would make a difference.

16A+ will power anything on the market, combined or seperate rails.

If anything, having more than one rail makes a system less stable if its all drawing off of one or the other.

But again... just adding them together haphazardly and watching brands will do more than buying PSUs for their "ripple" or overshooting your power requirements by 300w.

Again, no. 16A is not enough to power anything out there. A 8800GTX draws around 130W alone. Doing a bit of simple math we get 130/12V = 11A

So a graphics care can Easily take 11A of power off the 12V rail. Add in hard drives and everything else that sucks power from the 12V rail and 16A will certainly not always be enough. This doesn't even take into account inrush current.

And adding multiple rails together is not a good estimate even of multiple rail PSUs. For example the Enermax Liberty 400W has 30A on the 12V rail but has 20 A on each of its 2 12V rails.
 

PurdueRy

Lifer
Nov 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: ForumMaster
Well i did read the article and i was impressed that they purcahsed the correct testing equipment. the less ripple there is, the more stable the system will be if i understand correctly. they can test how good a PSU is at delivering the correct amount of power, but knowing how long a PSU will last is difficult if not impossible to determine.

does anyone know how Johnny Guru tests his power supplies for example? how is it different from AT's method?

Are you telling me there has been a case you have run across, EVER, where ripple has been so bad that it causes instability? Im an EECS student and ive never run across this.

Yes, ripple can cause major problems. For instance, a DSP I have used had its voltage spec as 1.2V. The max of this was 1.27V and the min was 1.12. For some DC-DC converters this is a pretty tight range the voltage must be kept between.
 

Aluvus

Platinum Member
Apr 27, 2006
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Originally posted by: Acanthus

While youre right, that operationally they are different, no one device draws enough power to make it an argument of any kind.

If your PC had a friggin stove element to draw off of one rail then yes it would make a difference.

You mean like a modern high-end video card?

16A+ will power anything on the market, combined or seperate rails.

Won't power Tech Report's Radeon 2900 XT Crossfire rig under load. The 170 W difference between idle and load is almost all CPU and video cards - 12 V components; there goes 14 A right there. Unless the idle current draw was 2 A (we should be so lucky), that's just not going to work out. It's not even a certainty that 16 A would be enough for that system at idle.

I deliberately picked an extreme example, because it removes the wiggle room of "it'll work, the manufacturer just won't say so" etc.

If anything, having more than one rail makes a system less stable if its all drawing off of one or the other.

If the current draw is within the rail's limits, it's functionally no different from a single-rail supply under the same conditions.

FWIW I don't have any particular love of multi-rail supplies (at least as they are usually implemented), but they are a reality of the market.

But again... just adding them together haphazardly and watching brands will do more than buying PSUs for their "ripple" or overshooting your power requirements by 300w.

Adding ratings haphazardly usually works adequately until you run an SLI or Crossfire system, which may severely break the assumptions you are making. Otherwise it's a passable but poor first-order approximation.

Watching brands is a start, but not the whole story. I certainly would not equate the quality of all of Antec's products, some of which are excellent and some of which are not. Most Thermaltake power supplies are horrible, but several are very good.

Buying decisions should be based on more than ripple characteristics, but sometimes ripple is good to know about. Ripple is what keeps people from readily endorsing products based on Fortron's Epsilon platform.

And if your intention is to judge supplies based on brand, it is useful to have something concrete to base that on; a brand that consistently has supplies that produce in-spec voltages but wildly out of spec ripple is not very appealing. A brand that consistently uses cheap capacitors may have products that sail right through most "reviews" but die 6 months out of the gate. The problem with most power supply reviews is quite simply that they don't look at these things, often because they share your attitude that these are trivial concerns.

Over-shooting requirements (as has become so popular these days) is not an especially good solution, but frankly if you have no real information to go it isn't a terrible solution. Even a very low quality power supply will often function just fine if little is asked of it relative to its ratings. Is it better than making an informed choice? Of course not. But when all else fails, tossing in a factor of safety is better than nothing.


I understand the desire to reduce the complexity of dealing with this stuff, but sometimes there are reasons for that complexity. My hope is that technical advances, and maybe some revised standards, will simply the situation over the next few years. I'm not holding my breath.
 

MarcVenice

Moderator Emeritus <br>
Apr 2, 2007
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Another example of why you cannot just add the rails together: Enermax 600W noisetaker

+12V1 = 18A
+12V2 = 18A

18A + 18A = 36A

Yet the reported combined power = +12V1 en +12V2 = 34A

34A does not equal 36A, hence you can not simply add up the 12v rails to get the combined power. A good PSU, like a Enermax might only lose 2A compared to what you would think would be the combined power, lesser, yet decent power supplies do not.

Btw, I think I read tha power supply's with 1 single large 12v rail pumping out 50A are on their return, because of the aforementioned problem that heyheybooboo somewhat explained.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
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Originally posted by: Operandi
AFAIK there is no scientific data on reliability, only anecdotal information. So you could start now but useful information would be about 5 years away.

Doing proper PSU tests isn't easy; SPCR, JonnyGuru, PC Perspective are almost the only ones that do it right so unless Anandtech is going to match that level they shouldn't even bother.

I have it on good authority - no names mentioned-- That several out fits were consulted with and it would seem from what I am told that OCZ was the main cunsultant.....

Read into that what you eill but PC Power & Cooling is a subsidiary of OCZ and Doug baby is OCZ`s main consultant.......


Peace!!
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: ForumMaster
Well i did read the article and i was impressed that they purcahsed the correct testing equipment. the less ripple there is, the more stable the system will be if i understand correctly. they can test how good a PSU is at delivering the correct amount of power, but knowing how long a PSU will last is difficult if not impossible to determine.

does anyone know how Johnny Guru tests his power supplies for example? how is it different from AT's method?

Are you telling me there has been a case you have run across, EVER, where ripple has been so bad that it causes instability? Im an EECS student and ive never run across this.

that truly is not the point of testing for ripple...
Seems to me with this statement that you are trying to dummy down PSU testing methodology without knowing why things are done....
your statement--
Things like ripple and efficiency dont matter to me at all unless they are way out of the norm, becuase they dont really affect anything, and almost always apply to generic PSUs.


After reading this whole thread seems to me like people need to just ignore the comments made by Acanthus!!
It`s obvious the technical aspects of PSU testing are shall we say above his head...

Peace!!

Peace!!
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
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I have to agree with JEDIyoda on this one. I have been on this forum for years, and can't count the number of people that start out clueless about PSU's, only to find out the hard way that listening to the hype cost them more than just a shiny PSU. Proper testing can reveal far more than listening to the "I use a 300 watt supply just fine for my crossfire setup and it is the best PSU on the market because it has blue lights!!" type post.

There is no way that you can find meaningful information from the AMP/Wattt/MTBF that the average manufacturer advertises, without them publishing their testing methodology. That said, we are at their mercy.

The manufacturers and their fanboys (sometimes paid by the manufacturer) add their chime-in and next the self-proclaimed experts add their two cents to the pot. Before you know it you have a recipe for nothing useful other than shiny marketing ads and shiny chassis with blinky lights.
 

Blain

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
23,643
3
81
PS testing should include...
* AC input variation
* DC output variation on all rails
* Connector resistance if modular unit is being tested
* Voltage ripple
* Ambient temperature affect
* Fan noise, if any
* Efficiency
* Physical characteristics... size, weight, color, etc.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
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76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: ForumMaster
Well i did read the article and i was impressed that they purcahsed the correct testing equipment. the less ripple there is, the more stable the system will be if i understand correctly. they can test how good a PSU is at delivering the correct amount of power, but knowing how long a PSU will last is difficult if not impossible to determine.

does anyone know how Johnny Guru tests his power supplies for example? how is it different from AT's method?

Are you telling me there has been a case you have run across, EVER, where ripple has been so bad that it causes instability? Im an EECS student and ive never run across this.

that truly is not the point of testing for ripple...
Seems to me with this statement that you are trying to dummy down PSU testing methodology without knowing why things are done....
your statement--
Things like ripple and efficiency dont matter to me at all unless they are way out of the norm, becuase they dont really affect anything, and almost always apply to generic PSUs.


After reading this whole thread seems to me like people need to just ignore the comments made by Acanthus!!
It`s obvious the technical aspects of PSU testing are shall we say above his head...

Peace!!

Peace!!

They are not above my head, give me one case where ripple matters at all, ever.

You dont power up your PC and go "wow this PSU has a much cleaner power signal!".

You dont see the difference, it doesnt affect performance, and if it works, why does it matter at all?