[Anandtech] GP107 fabbed on 14nm Samsung

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
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It is probably the reason you get such low clocks in comparison to the other 10xx cards. Obviously it will have cost Nvidia more money to use a new fab then it would have to use the well understood TSMC process, and imo they also get inferior performance due to lower clocks.

So why did Nvidia do this?

I think it's pretty likely we'll see Samsung phones with Nvidia gpu tech in them - the payment by Nvidia for this is to use Samsung fabs for some of their cards.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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It says that we will see much higher boost clocks on cards with a power connector. So that appears to be just a power limit.
 

Det0x

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Anandtech said:

"I’ll address what’s likely the elephant in the room first, which is the manufacturing process. To date all Pascal GPUs have been fabbed over at TSMC on their 16nm FinFET process. GP107 is not one of those GPUs. Instead, it’s fabbed on a 14nm process – NVIDIA’s specification sheet doesn’t technically state whose process – but by simple elimination it’s a very safe bet that they’re making the chip over at Samsung. Feature size is a red herring here, and instead the significance of this deal is that NVIDIA has not used a fab other than TSMC for GPUs for a long time. In fact we’d have to go back to 2003 to find an NVIDIA GPU fabbed somewhere else, when NVIDIA tapped IBM to help fab the ill-fated NV3x series (GeForce FX).

Suffice it to say, tapping another fab is a very big deal. There’s no second-sourcing here – GP107 is only being made on Samsung’s 14nm process and GP106+ only on TSMC’s 16nm process – but splitting orders like this may just as well be new territory for NVIDIA. As this is just a product announcement NVIDIA hasn’t said anything about the change in fabs, so let your imagination go wild here, but it definitely has some ramifications. I really need to get the GTX 1050 cards in house and on the testbed to figure out the full ramifications of this, but I think the most important change here is that a new process from a new vendor means that the voltage/frequency curve we’ve come to know with TSMC 16nm and Pascal has essentially been thrown out the window.

This in turn may explain the clockspeeds of the GTX 1050 cards. All of the other desktop GeForce 10-series cards have an official boost clock of 1600MHz+, with all but one of those cards being 1700Mhz+. The massive jump in clockspeed relative to Maxwell 2 is one of the signature elements of the Pascal architecture, and a major factor driving the significant performance gains of this generation compared to the last. The GTX 1050 series, by comparison, is only rated to boost up to 1455MHz for the GTX 1050, and lower still for the GTX 1050 Ti at 1392MHz.

Given that these are power-constrained cards, the final specifications of the cards are bound by a larger number of variables than usual – power curves, attainable frequency range, and now total power consumption – so I’m not even going to try to insinuate that the lower clockspeeds are solely a function of the change in fabs. However it’s very important to keep in mind that these lower clockspeeds come with a sometimes sizable increase in TDP relative to the GTX 750 series; instead of 55W/60W cards, we have 75W cards. So to use the fully enabled GTX 1050 Ti as an anchor point, power consumption has gone up 15W (25%) for a 28% increase in the boost clock, 1 more SM (20%), and somewhat decoupled from this, the doubled ROP count.

It’s telling then that NVIDIA has informed the press that the higher TDP cards with an external power connector are going to have much higher boost clocks. Whatever is going on under the hood, power plays a big part, and at a TDP limit of 75W, GP107 isn’t getting all the room it needs to stretch."

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10768/nvidia-announces-geforce-gtx-1050-ti-gtx-1050

And then we have this:

If this leak is true, boost can hit nearly 1.8 GHz for the Ti:

http://i1024.photobucket.com/albums/y303/martmail55/ab5cfb0ed27f47febac712871686179b_zpsxxntwq49.jpg

Die size is 135 mm², 3.3 billion transistors.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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TSMC is the best foundry and our primary supplier. We have always used a second source for some of our supply and have worked with Samsung since 28nm.

So what else has NV used Samsung for?
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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Lets be straight about this and not all this crap. Had theese cards been from tsmc they would have run at the same freq as 1060 and 1080.

Had we known 1400 was the boost before all would have asumed it was samsung and not tsmc. Now suddenly we have all this avoiding the obvious conclusion.
 
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linkgoron

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The 460 is 123mm2 as comparison
The 460 is cut, though.

Anyway, this is quite interesting. While this is still Samsung and not GF, so it isn't exactly the same process that Polaris is on, I'm really interested in seeing 14nm LPP vs 16FF+.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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The 460 is cut, though.

Anyway, this is quite interesting. While this is still Samsung and not GF, so it isn't exactly the same process that Polaris is on, I'm really interested in seeing 14nm LPP vs 16FF+.
Yes it is cut but i asume its the same die size as well as 1050 vs 1050ti.

I think we will only see the 460 full die when presumably rev 2 arives. I think we could see quite different tdp and boost by then. So its not all that simple to compare anyway. And i guess copying process is not a trivial task :)
 

Dribble

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Aug 9, 2005
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No samsung process is simply cheaper.
No it's not. To tape out for a new process by a different manufacturer will cost a lot more then just doing a smaller version on the same well understood process from the manufacturer they have always used. They also got a slower card at the end of it which lowers the price you can sell it for. Financially it doesn't make sense to use Samsung.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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Lets be straight about this and not all this crap. Had theese cards been from tsmc they would have run at the same freq as 1060 and 1080.

Had we known 1400 was the boost before all would have asumed it was samsung and not tsmc. Now suddenly we have all this avoiding the obvious conclusion.
Who cares? As long as we have the choice of getting a card with or without a power connector and thus with or without high boost clocks.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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Anyone want to guess the price of the Ti cards with a power connector and high boost clocks?
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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Who cares?

Perhaps the same people who say the difference between 480 and 1060 is important? ;)

This is a tech forum and if a 1050 oc to 1600 have the same tdp as a 1060 it is interesting.

Why did nv go samsung? Thats an interesting question as -yes- they did get a slower card by doing so. So what is their motives. And they surely is valid.
 

krumme

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Oct 9, 2009
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I think it's pretty likely we'll see Samsung phones with Nvidia gpu tech in them - the payment by Nvidia for this is to use Samsung fabs for some of their cards.

I think thats a pretty darn good guess !
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
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Perhaps the same people who say the difference between 480 and 1060 is important? ;)

This is a tech forum and if a 1050 oc to 1600 have the same tdp as a 1060 it is interesting.

Why did nv go samsung? Thats an interesting question as -yes- they did get a slower card by doing so. So what is their motives. And they surely is valid.

I don't see how they got a slower card at all. Not sure why you keep saying that.

I do note that you use that very big two letter word.

The jump to 1060 is 45 watts, 120-75. Lots of room in there.
 

Samwell

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May 10, 2015
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No it's not. To tape out for a new process by a different manufacturer will cost a lot more then just doing a smaller version on the same well understood process from the manufacturer they have always used. They also got a slower card at the end of it which lowers the price you can sell it for. Financially it doesn't make sense to use Samsung.

Of course it does and financials are the reason for it. There is little price difference, whether you use Samsung or the known TSMC for design. Maybe you pay 50 Million more for it, as you need to learn the rules of the Samsung process. But Samsung is cheaper as TSMC per wafer it seems. At least that's what i heard. So with every Wafer you get money back and maybe even more important, with a second source Nvidia gets a bigger rabate on TSMC wafer prizes. It's always a better negotiating position, when you're able to tell TSMC, if we don't get X discount, next time we push more chips to samsung.
 
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raghu78

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So its finally confirmed that GP107 is fabbed at Samsung 14nm. GP107 will give a clear idea of how much superior TSMC 16FF+ is wrt Samsung 14LPP. imo TSMC 16FF+ is almost a half node ahead of Samsung 14LPP in terms of transistor performance (10-15% faster at same power). With anandtech mentioning that higher clocked GP107 is going to need external power connector its going to be interesting to see the power vs frequency curve for GP107.

The reason Nvidia might have gone with Samsung could be multiple.
1. TSMC might be volume constrained and for the short term it was worth taping out a high volume chip at Samsung 14LPP to complete the transition to Pascal GPUs.
2. To open the door for Samsung to license Nvidia GPU IP for their smartphones.
3. To keep TSMC honest wrt wafer pricing.

Anyway I think we will have interesting comparisons with GP107 vs Polaris 11 being built on different implementations of 14LPP. I think we are likely to see a second revision of Polaris sometime early in 2017 along with Vega. That would make this an even closer contest. Right now GP107 Pascal should still win easily against Polaris on efficiency.
 
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Headfoot

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So its finally confirmed that GP107 is fabbed at Samsung 14nm. GP107 will give a clear idea of how much superior TSMC 16FF+ is wrt Samsung 14LPP. imo TSMC 16FF+ is almost a half node ahead of Samsung 14LPP in terms of transistor performance (10-15% faster at same power). With anandtech mentioning that higher clocked GP107 is going to need external power connector its going to be interesting to see the power vs frequency curve for GP107.

The reason Nvidia might have gone with Samsung could be multiple.
1. TSMC might be volume constrained and for the short term it was worth taping out a high volume chip at Samsung 14LPP to complete the transition to Pascal GPUs.
2. To open the door for Samsung to license Nvidia GPU IP for their smartphones.
3. To keep TSMC honest wrt wafer pricing.

Anyway I think we will have interesting comparisons with GP107 vs Polaris 11 being built on different implementations of 14LPP. I think we are likely to see a second revision of Polaris sometime early in 2017 along with Vega. That would make this an even closer contest. Right now GP107 Pascal should still win easily against Polaris on efficiency.

I think it's pretty reasonable that nVidia weighed all of the costs and benefits when choosing to go Samsung on this one. It's a pretty big course change. Lots of good reasons posted here, and I'm sure there are even more reasons based on information we're not privvy to.
 

mohit9206

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Jul 2, 2013
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Anyone want to guess the price of the Ti cards with a power connector and high boost clocks?
Evga FTW $169.

So its finally confirmed that GP107 is fabbed at Samsung 14nm. GP107 will give a clear idea of how much superior TSMC 16FF+ is wrt Samsung 14LPP. imo TSMC 16FF+ is almost a half node ahead of Samsung 14LPP in terms of transistor performance (10-15% faster at same power). With anandtech mentioning that higher clocked GP107 is going to need external power connector its going to be interesting to see the power vs frequency curve for GP107.

The reason Nvidia might have gone with Samsung could be multiple.
1. TSMC might be volume constrained and for the short term it was worth taping out a high volume chip at Samsung 14LPP to complete the transition to Pascal GPUs.
2. To open the door for Samsung to license Nvidia GPU IP for their smartphones.
3. To keep TSMC honest wrt wafer pricing.

Anyway I think we will have interesting comparisons with GP107 vs Polaris 11 being built on different implementations of 14LPP. I think we are likely to see a second revision of Polaris sometime early in 2017 along with Vega. That would make this an even closer contest. Right now GP107 Pascal should still win easily against Polaris on efficiency.

In regards to no. 2,i thought Nvdia quit the smartphone gpu business because Tegra K1 and X1 flopped? There will be no more focus on smartphones and complete focus on automobile.
 

Snarf Snarf

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Feb 19, 2015
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Evga FTW $169.



In regards to no. 2,i thought Nvdia quit the smartphone gpu business because Tegra K1 and X1 flopped? There will be no more focus on smartphones and complete focus on automobile.

They got out of making mobile chips, that does not imply that it wouldn't be financially lucrative to license graphics IP to Samsung for their own mobile GPU's.