Anandtech: against BTX? Why? State your arguments here! *now with poll*

[Cerb]

It's a good thing...but Intel, as usual, went about it all the wrong way. They need to get used to the idea that other companies can be market forces, too. It should make quiet computing with fewer fans easier, as well as not-so-quiet.

Nothing but future Pentium 4 and Xeon CPUs will need it (for the time being), so nobody really wants it. But when the time comes, we'll all start getting BTX K8 and K9 boards...

 

[HardWarrior]

It's a good thing on paper and new, superior standards have fallen by the wayside before.

 

[Davegod]

it seems an unnecessary and more than significant extra expense. Sure, the transition in the market will be gradual, but at some point you're going to be switching over to BTX and at that point you're going to have to buy an awful lot of new stuff. Nobody else seems to want it either, none of the other companies seem pleased about it (least of all the case companies, who will bear the brunt of the capital cost), consumers are split 50:50 at best. It doesnt even come accross as a real innovation or big step forward, just a rearrangement to cool the cpu better.

several other things i'm not keen on either, like all the intake air getting heated by the cpu, so you get a cooler cpu at the expense of everything else. I'm not sure how being supplied with air heated by a 100w+ cpu is supposed to be better for the video card than the current norm where it gets air at most trivially heated by a hard disk. With BTX hard disks now sit in an apparent dead hotspot, even RAM looks like it's going to be sitting in convected hot air.

From the spec pdf the intake fan is 80mm. why did they manage to realise 92mm in the psu is a good thing, then go with a puny 80mm for the intake? ATX cases have been shifting to 120mm fans!

As a flat desktop, it looks sensible. It's when it's a vertical tower that it starts to look rather bent on cooling the cpu and damn everything else.

 

[mechBgon]

several other things i'm not keen on either, like all the intake air getting heated by the cpu, so you get a cooler cpu at the expense of everything else. I'm not sure how being supplied with air heated by a 100w+ cpu is supposed to be better for the video card than the current norm where it gets air at most trivially heated by a hard disk. With BTX hard disks now sit in an apparent dead hotspot, even RAM looks like it's going to be sitting in convected hot air.

Right on, Davegod, just what I was about to say. Look beyond your CPU cooling, people. What really hurts to lose? Your hard drive and the data on it. I run a pair of 15000rpm SCSI drives, and while they don't run a lot hotter than most 7200rpm ATA drives, I'm sure as heck not going to tuck them into a corner so they can cook eachother :frown: I wouldn't do that even to a pair of ATA drives. Methinks someone was asleep at the wheel on this aspect of computer cooling.

 

[dickie1900]

I do think BTX will eventually replace the ATX standard that we all know and love. Is it going to take time? Of course, like every other new technology it will probably take a couple of years to become mainstream. I think it boils down to the fact that the advantages to BTX over ATX are to many to disregard, with as fast as processors are going now, and as fast as they're going to have to go to keep up with Moore's Law, a new, more logical approach to cooling needs to be considered. And I think this is the way to go.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Davegod
it seems an unnecessary and more than significant extra expense. Sure, the transition in the market will be gradual, but at some point you're going to be switching over to BTX and at that point you're going to have to buy an awful lot of new stuff. Nobody else seems to want it either, none of the other companies seem pleased about it (least of all the case companies, who will bear the brunt of the capital cost), consumers are split 50:50 at best. It doesnt even come accross as a real innovation or big step forward, just a rearrangement to cool the cpu better.

Actually, BTX brings a lot more to the table than just better placement f the CPU. MaximumPC's July 2004 issue has a nice article that explains the changes in easy to understand language. Intel obviosly took great care in the design. What they didn't do right, as mentioned, was take they're usual dictatorial approach to getting the standard implemented.

 

[iwantanewcomputer]

i'm all for amd moving to btx in the future. next time i upgrade i would be perfectly happy getting btx as lon as the selection is there and it'sthe same price as atx. when i upgrade i'm getting a whole new system and keeping the one i have now together. it makes good sense unless you want to reuse case/psu

 

[klah]

Here is Intel's projection for BTX "percentage of desktop PC sales" from IDF last week: http://www.x86-secret.com/pics/divers/idf2004/btx-1.png

Only 20% penetration by Q4-2005, and 50% by 2007. ATX will be here for a long time.

 

[dickie1900]

I think that seems about right. Give it a couple of years to sink in to the mainstream while all the high end users pick it up pretty quick. I don't think that's a bad forecast.

 

[lobadobadingdong]

I'm against btx because it makes it impossible for AMD to use it due to the lack of any way to use an on-die memory controller.

 

[The J]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Right on, Davegod, just what I was about to say. Look beyond your CPU cooling, people. What really hurts to lose? Your hard drive and the data on it. I run a pair of 15000rpm SCSI drives, and while they don't run a lot hotter than most 7200rpm ATA drives, I'm sure as heck not going to tuck them into a corner so they can cook eachother :frown: I wouldn't do that even to a pair of ATA drives. Methinks someone was asleep at the wheel on this aspect of computer cooling.

What stops case manufacturers from putting fans in front of the hard drives? I'm not going to run out and get a BTX system, but it looks like it will help with cooling. I think that case manufacturers will find spots for more fans, such as another in back and in in fron of the hard drives.

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: The J

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Right on, Davegod, just what I was about to say. Look beyond your CPU cooling, people. What really hurts to lose? Your hard drive and the data on it. I run a pair of 15000rpm SCSI drives, and while they don't run a lot hotter than most 7200rpm ATA drives, I'm sure as heck not going to tuck them into a corner so they can cook eachother :frown: I wouldn't do that even to a pair of ATA drives. Methinks someone was asleep at the wheel on this aspect of computer cooling.

What stops case manufacturers from putting fans in front of the hard drives? I'm not going to run out and get a BTX system, but it looks like it will help with cooling. I think that case manufacturers will find spots for more fans, such as another in back and in in fron of the hard drives.

We can certainly hope they do, yes Why didn't Intel include this in the design, though?

 

[dickie1900]

Originally posted by: mechBgon

Originally posted by: The J

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Right on, Davegod, just what I was about to say. Look beyond your CPU cooling, people. What really hurts to lose? Your hard drive and the data on it. I run a pair of 15000rpm SCSI drives, and while they don't run a lot hotter than most 7200rpm ATA drives, I'm sure as heck not going to tuck them into a corner so they can cook eachother :frown: I wouldn't do that even to a pair of ATA drives. Methinks someone was asleep at the wheel on this aspect of computer cooling.

What stops case manufacturers from putting fans in front of the hard drives? I'm not going to run out and get a BTX system, but it looks like it will help with cooling. I think that case manufacturers will find spots for more fans, such as another in back and in in fron of the hard drives.

We can certainly hope they do, yes Why didn't Intel include this in the design, though?

It's a baseline, most people don't need that kind of setup. The average users rig doesnn't even come close to pushing the limits of their system. Most people still only use their computers for browsing and MS word, maybe some online card games. So theirs no reason to include it in the design. Actually, most high-end users want to see less in the way of fans.....not more. While I'm sure you can expect to see some pretty extreme versions of BTX, especially once the case modding starts. But I don't think that should be in the base design.

 

[joshcloud9]

My hard drives have two quiet fans blowing on them!

Lian Li ATX with cool HD's!

 

[prometheusxls]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Bateluer
I don't think you'll have much of a choice when the time comes. Odds are that mobo maker will make BTX AMD boards for the BTX form factor, as will PSU and Case makers.

Don't be too sure about that. BTX isn't catching the manufacturing houses by storm. Not many are willing to force such a big change on everyone just because Intel says so. Having said that, BTX does seem to offer some interesting and needed changes, but I don't think it's going anywhere. For now, at least.

IIRC, when we changed from AT ---> ATX it took some time approximately 1 year when many Motherboards were in this strange / multi configuration layout with both AT and ATX PSU connectors. From the time when they were introduced until when they really took off was like 2 years. Between the Pentium MMX and Pentium 2 Gens.

As for ATX --> BTX. ATX is a very good and functional standard. Ihave jsut bought the A64 system and plan on sticking with it as long as possible until PCIX, BTX, DDR2 etc.. are all fully mature and we knwo what is what. I don't anticipate another massive system upgrade upgrade for 2 years.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: prometheusxls

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Bateluer
I don't think you'll have much of a choice when the time comes. Odds are that mobo maker will make BTX AMD boards for the BTX form factor, as will PSU and Case makers.

Don't be too sure about that. BTX isn't catching the manufacturing houses by storm. Not many are willing to force such a big change on everyone just because Intel says so. Having said that, BTX does seem to offer some interesting and needed changes, but I don't think it's going anywhere. For now, at least.

IIRC, when we changed from AT ---> ATX it took some time approximately 1 year when many Motherboards were in this strange / multi configuration layout with both AT and ATX PSU connectors. From the time when they were introduced until when they really took off was like 2 years. Between the Pentium MMX and Pentium 2 Gens.

As for ATX --> BTX. ATX is a very good and functional standard. Ihave jsut bought the A64 system and plan on sticking with it as long as possible until PCIX, BTX, DDR2 etc.. are all fully mature and we knwo what is what. I don't anticipate another massive system upgrade upgrade for 2 years.

Irrelevant.

Again, on paper BTX looks fine, but that doesn't mean it's going to be adopted. 1. Intel went about it the wrong way. 2. There are a lot more chairs at the table than there were during AT-to-ATX translation days. If BTX pans out, and for BOTH CPU platforms, I'll be glad to take a hard look at it.

 

[prometheusxls]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Irrelevant.

Again, on paper BTX looks fine, but that doesn't mean it's going to be adopted. 1. Intel went about it the wrong way. 2. There are a lot more chairs at the table than there were during AT-to-ATX translation days. If BTX pans out, and for BOTH CPU platforms, I'll be glad to take a hard look at it.

My brief descripption of AT-->ATX was offered for historical perspective. As this happened over 6 years ago its probabble that most people reading this may not have any info about that change. I don't think AT was arround at that time. I was merely pointing out that even in the case of ATX which has been shown to be a clearly a superior standard to AT there was still a very long time before companies began investing in the new standard and even longer (2 years) before it was adopted industry wide.

Still not sure how my comments were irrelevant since there has been no other significant formfactor change sicne AT--> ATX. Therefore your statement about intel doing things the wrong way seems particularly questionable. You sart by claiming that history has no lessons to teach us with regards to this transition. That said there cannot possible be an established right way / wrong way to do things? A priori reasning? Give me a break.

I am in exactly the same situation as you (see my rig) and I am taking the exact same course of action: the wait and see approach. This is exactly the same thign that I did when switchign from AT to ATX. I am certainly not even going to look seriosuly at BTX until I need to buy a new PC. Which is still years away. by that time I am sure that the situation will have sorted its self out.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

BTX sucks due to the heat-transfer issues described above. If they want to do something worthwhile, make some air channels in a case or get watercooling mass-produced down to reasonable pricepoints.

- M4H

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: prometheusxls

Still not sure how my comments were irrelevant since there has been no other significant formfactor change sicne AT--> ATX. Therefore your statement about intel doing things the wrong way seems particularly questionable. You sart by claiming that history has no lessons to teach us with regards to this transition. That said there cannot possible be an established right way / wrong way to do things? A priori reasning? Give me a break.

Intel introduced BTX as a solution to heat issues THEY were having. Heat issues that don't exist for AMD at this time. I didn't "sart" by claiming any such thing. Don't put words in my mouth. Intel isn't the bull in the china shop anymore. They don't serve themselves, or the masses, by acting like they are. That's all the "history" I'm conerned with at this point.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
BTX sucks due to the heat-transfer issues described above. If they want to do something worthwhile, make some air channels in a case or get watercooling mass-produced down to reasonable pricepoints.

- M4H

Mass-produced, high-tech and relatively cheap water-cooling would be nice, merc. The problem is that water isn't being driven by most of us to get better. Go to some place like procooling and suggest a new way of doing things and you'll get pissed on. It seems like 99% of American old-skoolers want to stay in the stone ages.

[OT a bit, sorry killa]

 

[LifeStealer]

Put all components in mineral oil! Extreme cooling o_o

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
BTX sucks due to the heat-transfer issues described above. If they want to do something worthwhile, make some air channels in a case or get watercooling mass-produced down to reasonable pricepoints.

- M4H

Mass-produced, high-tech and relatively cheap water-cooling would be nice, merc. The problem is that water isn't being driven by most of us to get better. Go to some place like procooling and suggest a new way of doing things and you'll get pissed on. It seems like 99% of American old-skoolers want to stay in the stone ages.

[OT a bit, sorry killa]

Exactly. Same way that full-frame DVDs are getting more play on the rental shelves because Joe Redneck don't want Them Thar Black Bars taking away from his 19" Panasomy set.

- M4H

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
BTX sucks due to the heat-transfer issues described above. If they want to do something worthwhile, make some air channels in a case or get watercooling mass-produced down to reasonable pricepoints.

- M4H

Mass-produced, high-tech and relatively cheap water-cooling would be nice, merc. The problem is that water isn't being driven by most of us to get better. Go to some place like procooling and suggest a new way of doing things and you'll get pissed on. It seems like 99% of American old-skoolers want to stay in the stone ages.

[OT a bit, sorry killa]

Exactly. Same way that full-frame DVDs are getting more play on the rental shelves because Joe Redneck don't want Them Thar Black Bars taking away from his 19" Panasomy set.

- M4H

I couldn't have have said it better!