nodoubts2k
Golden Member
I'd buy a mac laptop. they are pretty sweet 😀
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Anand wants to know how you feel about Apple...
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blakeatwork
Diamond Member
Having not used anything from Apple (or whomever is making their machines now), I can't really say... Pricewise, if I was being handed one for free, I'd give it a whirl, but I find it hard to justify spending an obscene amount of money on a system that's no better, and in most cases worse, then what's being offered on the market today, and at reasonably lower prices...
I've lost clients because I don't deal with MAC, and it's not a personal, I'm hardcore-PC so i can't ever use MAC's thing.... I just don't know how anymore...
So I really don't feel anything about Apple... if they were to tank tomorrow, I probably wouldn't even blink..
I've lost clients because I don't deal with MAC, and it's not a personal, I'm hardcore-PC so i can't ever use MAC's thing.... I just don't know how anymore...
So I really don't feel anything about Apple... if they were to tank tomorrow, I probably wouldn't even blink..
Anand seems to be getting a lot of opinions about Macs from people that don't have one, and have seldom used one, if at all.
I'd been building PC's for so long that I guess about a year ago I'd just gotten completely bored with them. The first one I pieced together was a Commodore PC10 (XT compatible) that my grandfather gave me when he upgraded to a Tandy1000. That was close to 20 years ago, I think. So I can say that I've been a long time PC user and supporter, and enthusiast.
I worked at an ISP for 6 years, and during that time, I was cursed with my fair share of iMacs coming in and having to work on OS8 and 9. I really despised them and hated dealing with the OS, although I must admit that I didn't even try to like them.
Well, last year when I was so bored with what had to have been the 6th PC I'd built for myself that year, I decided to pick up a Powermac G4 on ebay for around $400. When it came in, I got the OSX cds from a friend of mine, and proceeded to try it out. I didn't do much with it the first week, because I was spent more time being annoyed at its differences rather than trying to learn them. But after a couple weeks, I was getting more proficient at it, and within a couple months I found that I kept saying to myself, "Why isn't Windows more like this?"
One thing I noticed is how consistant things are in the OS. I'm a sysadmin for a living, so I'm always talking to our users about their problems, and one thing that always gives them trouble is when applications behave differently, but the user is performing the same function. For instance, when you click the X to close Outlook, it closes. The application is no longer running. But click the X in Yahoo Messenger or Kazaa and what happens? The program is still running, but only in the systray. Now, you and I don't have a problem understanding this, but for most users, it's just not a consistent way to use a computer, and it gives them a hard time. All Mac applications close the exact same way. You click on the program's name in the menu bar, and then you click Quit. It's a simple thing, I know, and anyone with a little computer ambition can figure it out either way, but it's never bad when things are consistant, and attention is paid to detail.
Anyway, I kept with using the G4 here and there, did a few upgrades (processor, ram, vid card) and eventually I found myself ignoring my 2.4 P4 and using my Mac for my regular day to day stuff (email, surfing, chat, music). Well when the G5's were announced, I had a feeling I was going to want one, so one day it got the best of me and I ordered a 1.6 G5. I sold my P4 desktop, but I still had my IBM T40 laptop, so it's not like I was abandoning Windows completely. That only lasted a few months before I found myself annoyed by having to use Windows when away from home. So a few weeks ago, I picked up a new 15" Aluminum Powerbook.
Now, other than a couple of linux servers, the only PC I have is an Athlon XP 2600 that sits unused most of the time, and I do all my hobby work (DVD authoring, video editing, Photoshop) and day to day tasks on my Macs. I really enjoy using them, and I have enough Windows related problems to deal with every day at work.
No, I don't think Macs are perfect, nor is the OS. Maybe they're not as exciting to deal with on a hardware level if you're an enthusiast. But hardware is just a means to an end, and while a computer can be fun to build, it's really what you do with it that matters. Seeing as how I do ALL the exact same stuff on my Macs as I can on my PCs, and the PCs even cost less, but I STILL prefer the Macs, that says something about the whole user experience.
So Anand, if you're reading this by any chance... You're obviously a computing enthusiast, and that means more than just being a PC hardware enthusiast. You'd probably enjoy getting your hands dirty in a different environment for a change. I know you've been using Apple's Cinema displays for a while, you advised me on getting one yourself a few years ago. You might as well pair those Cinema's up with a Powermac, that's what I did. And hey, it even looks good, too!
Here's a pic of my setup at home. I think it looks pretty decent.
By the way, I sold my 4 year old Powermac that I bought on ebay. I got $1000 for it, selling it right back on ebay. With my smart upgrade shopping, I actually only had about $800 in it. So yeah, maybe macs do cost more, but damn, do they hold their value. Try selling a 4 year old PC for $1000. Hell, try getting $1000 for a 4 month old PC.
I'd been building PC's for so long that I guess about a year ago I'd just gotten completely bored with them. The first one I pieced together was a Commodore PC10 (XT compatible) that my grandfather gave me when he upgraded to a Tandy1000. That was close to 20 years ago, I think. So I can say that I've been a long time PC user and supporter, and enthusiast.
I worked at an ISP for 6 years, and during that time, I was cursed with my fair share of iMacs coming in and having to work on OS8 and 9. I really despised them and hated dealing with the OS, although I must admit that I didn't even try to like them.
Well, last year when I was so bored with what had to have been the 6th PC I'd built for myself that year, I decided to pick up a Powermac G4 on ebay for around $400. When it came in, I got the OSX cds from a friend of mine, and proceeded to try it out. I didn't do much with it the first week, because I was spent more time being annoyed at its differences rather than trying to learn them. But after a couple weeks, I was getting more proficient at it, and within a couple months I found that I kept saying to myself, "Why isn't Windows more like this?"
One thing I noticed is how consistant things are in the OS. I'm a sysadmin for a living, so I'm always talking to our users about their problems, and one thing that always gives them trouble is when applications behave differently, but the user is performing the same function. For instance, when you click the X to close Outlook, it closes. The application is no longer running. But click the X in Yahoo Messenger or Kazaa and what happens? The program is still running, but only in the systray. Now, you and I don't have a problem understanding this, but for most users, it's just not a consistent way to use a computer, and it gives them a hard time. All Mac applications close the exact same way. You click on the program's name in the menu bar, and then you click Quit. It's a simple thing, I know, and anyone with a little computer ambition can figure it out either way, but it's never bad when things are consistant, and attention is paid to detail.
Anyway, I kept with using the G4 here and there, did a few upgrades (processor, ram, vid card) and eventually I found myself ignoring my 2.4 P4 and using my Mac for my regular day to day stuff (email, surfing, chat, music). Well when the G5's were announced, I had a feeling I was going to want one, so one day it got the best of me and I ordered a 1.6 G5. I sold my P4 desktop, but I still had my IBM T40 laptop, so it's not like I was abandoning Windows completely. That only lasted a few months before I found myself annoyed by having to use Windows when away from home. So a few weeks ago, I picked up a new 15" Aluminum Powerbook.
Now, other than a couple of linux servers, the only PC I have is an Athlon XP 2600 that sits unused most of the time, and I do all my hobby work (DVD authoring, video editing, Photoshop) and day to day tasks on my Macs. I really enjoy using them, and I have enough Windows related problems to deal with every day at work.
No, I don't think Macs are perfect, nor is the OS. Maybe they're not as exciting to deal with on a hardware level if you're an enthusiast. But hardware is just a means to an end, and while a computer can be fun to build, it's really what you do with it that matters. Seeing as how I do ALL the exact same stuff on my Macs as I can on my PCs, and the PCs even cost less, but I STILL prefer the Macs, that says something about the whole user experience.
So Anand, if you're reading this by any chance... You're obviously a computing enthusiast, and that means more than just being a PC hardware enthusiast. You'd probably enjoy getting your hands dirty in a different environment for a change. I know you've been using Apple's Cinema displays for a while, you advised me on getting one yourself a few years ago. You might as well pair those Cinema's up with a Powermac, that's what I did. And hey, it even looks good, too!
Here's a pic of my setup at home. I think it looks pretty decent.
By the way, I sold my 4 year old Powermac that I bought on ebay. I got $1000 for it, selling it right back on ebay. With my smart upgrade shopping, I actually only had about $800 in it. So yeah, maybe macs do cost more, but damn, do they hold their value. Try selling a 4 year old PC for $1000. Hell, try getting $1000 for a 4 month old PC.
I'll just point you guys to this thread....
Price Comparison at AnAnd
The prices on the high-end ones add-up. 🙂
Price Comparison at AnAnd
The prices on the high-end ones add-up. 🙂
Cool. I bought a G5 myself. 🙂
So I go to work and use a DELL... and come home to my Apple. At the desk across from my Mac is the PC that I put together for my boyfriend. 😀
When I first started using both computer types it was a little annoying. The Apple menu on the top left of the Mac is pretty much the Start menu on the bottom left on the PC.
But someone pointed out... Why go to the Start menu to Shutdown? 😛
So I go to work and use a DELL... and come home to my Apple. At the desk across from my Mac is the PC that I put together for my boyfriend. 😀
When I first started using both computer types it was a little annoying. The Apple menu on the top left of the Mac is pretty much the Start menu on the bottom left on the PC.
But someone pointed out... Why go to the Start menu to Shutdown? 😛
Eug
Lifer
I posted this in his weblog's comments section:
Just a note, if you're going to get a dual Power Mac: The current G5 Power Macs use 130 nm CPUs which top out 2.0 GHz (so far). Now, considering the G5 Xserves have already been announced with 90 nm chips at 2.0 GHz, considering the G5 Power Macs haven't been updated for half a year, and considering that Jobs promised 3 GHz in a year (summer/fall 2004), one would expect that the dual Power Macs are going to be updated soon. I suspect a dual 2.4 GHz Power Mac announcement within the month.
Thus brings up one issue with Macs. Apple is very secretive about product updates, so much so that even IBM is hiding their G5 PowerPC 970 roadmaps for the sake of Apple. This makes planning purchases difficult, and thus many Mac users simply hold off buying at the end of a 6 month cycle.
As for the "Mac Lab" test, software is of course key. Stuff like Safari (now at 1.2), iCal, Mail, Address Book, and iSync are all preinstalled. iLife '04 should come preinstalled as well, but if it isn't, it would be worth spending the $20 to get the update. (I'm assuming you're buying the Apple hardware and software, for the sake of this post.) iPhoto 4 is not the greatest program in the world, so be forewarned. It's in need of some bug fixes. I'm sure you're already familiar with iTunes; iTunes on the Mac is almost identical. If you have a DV camera, iMovie with iDVD is a very nice combo. And for the budding musician, GarageBand is nice too. Now if you need a bit more robust Apple software, you have Final Cut Express, DVD Studio Pro, and Logic Express.
For a backup PC, using Microsoft Virtual PC would have been nice, but unfortunately it currently does not run on the G5. Microsoft has promised it for Q2 2004. Microsoft does have Remote Desktop though, which will take over control of one of your shared PCs on your network. Works great, as does the Microsoft Office v.X suite. (Office 2004 comes out soon too.)
And of course, as you already know, there are a bazillion *nix apps available for your testing pleasure.
Good luck, and I look forward to your blogs and article.
Cheers, Eug. 🙂
Just a note, if you're going to get a dual Power Mac: The current G5 Power Macs use 130 nm CPUs which top out 2.0 GHz (so far). Now, considering the G5 Xserves have already been announced with 90 nm chips at 2.0 GHz, considering the G5 Power Macs haven't been updated for half a year, and considering that Jobs promised 3 GHz in a year (summer/fall 2004), one would expect that the dual Power Macs are going to be updated soon. I suspect a dual 2.4 GHz Power Mac announcement within the month.
Thus brings up one issue with Macs. Apple is very secretive about product updates, so much so that even IBM is hiding their G5 PowerPC 970 roadmaps for the sake of Apple. This makes planning purchases difficult, and thus many Mac users simply hold off buying at the end of a 6 month cycle.
As for the "Mac Lab" test, software is of course key. Stuff like Safari (now at 1.2), iCal, Mail, Address Book, and iSync are all preinstalled. iLife '04 should come preinstalled as well, but if it isn't, it would be worth spending the $20 to get the update. (I'm assuming you're buying the Apple hardware and software, for the sake of this post.) iPhoto 4 is not the greatest program in the world, so be forewarned. It's in need of some bug fixes. I'm sure you're already familiar with iTunes; iTunes on the Mac is almost identical. If you have a DV camera, iMovie with iDVD is a very nice combo. And for the budding musician, GarageBand is nice too. Now if you need a bit more robust Apple software, you have Final Cut Express, DVD Studio Pro, and Logic Express.
For a backup PC, using Microsoft Virtual PC would have been nice, but unfortunately it currently does not run on the G5. Microsoft has promised it for Q2 2004. Microsoft does have Remote Desktop though, which will take over control of one of your shared PCs on your network. Works great, as does the Microsoft Office v.X suite. (Office 2004 comes out soon too.)
And of course, as you already know, there are a bazillion *nix apps available for your testing pleasure.
Good luck, and I look forward to your blogs and article.
Cheers, Eug. 🙂
beachbreeze
Member
This was posted to another discussion. I'll post it here because I keep seeing the same erroneous, unresearched comments that Apple computers are expensive:
"the cost, the cost..."
I keep reading about this over & over in these fora, yet you never give any facts with the comments. Every time I compare Apple's prices with Dell's they look very competitive. What I usually read is someone comparing Apple's prices with what they can make a PC for themselves. Does anyone here really think that that is a fair comparison?
I could salvage an beat out a car involved in a minor accident, then salvage parts from similar models & get it on the road for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Does that make Ford an expensive make of cars? Of course it doesn't. Relative to their competitors they are good value.
But let me compare owning an Apple eMac to a home made PC - since you insist.
$749.00 - with education discount
1GHz PowerPC G4
128MB SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA drive
USB, Firewire, 10/100 Ethernet
Harman Kardon Speakers
Combo drive - DVD/CD-RW
It is a really basic first time PC with an excellent software bundle:
Mac OS X, Mail, iChat AV, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, QuickTime, iLife (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD(6)), iSync, iCal, DVD Player, AppleWorks, Mac OS X Chess and Classic environment; Microsoft Internet Explorer, EarthLink TotalAccess 2003 (includes 30 days of free service), AOL, Quicken 2004 Deluxe, World Book 2003 Edition, Microsoft Office v. X Test Drive, Tony Hawk?s Pro Skater 4, Deimos Rising, Sound Studio and Zinio Reader; Apple Hardware Test
A novice could use it for a year & then decide to upgrade. How much of a PC do you think you could up grade for $250. You could buy a new hard drive and perhaps the graphics card - if you sell the old ones, and provided they don't need a new power supply.
And what will $250 get you if you had an Apple eMac? You'd easily sell the eMac on eBay for $500 and go out and buy a brand new Mac with the latest software & OS! The only way you guys keep your home built PCs anywhere near that price is by pirating Windows, Office etc.
So owning a new Apple eMac every year costs $250/year.
A brand new DVD-R eMac also costs $250/year
A brand new 15" LCD iMac costs the same $250/year
The 17" LCD iMac will cost more at about $300/year
The iBooks cost from $250/300 per year
The 12" and 15" powerbooks will cost you $500
The 17" is expensive in my experience, costing $1000/year
The PowerMacs cost $600/800 per year
Compared to the depreciation of PCs this is phenomenal....
But fanboys just look at initial price. So lets compare Apple with Dell, a company with a reputation for outcompeting its competitors on price. Let's make sure the PC has ethernet, firewire, a game, an encyclopaedia, DVD mastering & burning software, anti-virus protection (the Mac won't need it), a similar screen, RAM & graphics... we can ignore the PCs poorer build quality & design.
eMac DVD-R $1099 ($999 education)
Panther OS X 10.3
1GHz PowerPC G4
256MB SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive 4xDVD
Probably virus free for life
Flat 17" CRT with anti-glare coatings
ATI Radeon 7500 with 32MB DDR
Harmon Kardon Speakers
Appleworks drawing, painting & iPhoto
iMovie, iDVD, iTunes
4 USB, 2 Firewire, 10/100 Ethernet
1 year warrantee
Dimension 4600 - $1,246.00
XP Home
P4 2.8GHz
256 DDR RAM
120 GB SATA drive
Single Drive: 8x DVD+RW Drive
MyDVD Deluxe burning software
McAfee Security Center w/VirusScan (just one year)
Cheap curved 17" CRT
Integrated Intel® Extreme Graphics 2
Stereo Speakers
WordPerfect® Office 11
Dell Picture Studio, Photo Album Premium
Microsoft® Plus! Digital Media Edition
Must have USB, no mention of Firewire on site
1 year warrantee
Oh the PRICE, oh that expensive Apple! The spec is as close as I could get it. The Dell has better Processor, RAM, Hard drive, DVD +RW. The Apple has a better Screen, Graphics, Firewire, Software & Design... oh and it is up to $250 CHEAPER!
Let's go up market - the 17" WideScreen iMac:
iMac 17" - $1,799.00 ($1,699.00 - education)
17-inch widescreen LCD Digital 1400 x 900 custom size
1.25GHz PowerPC G4
Panther Mac OS X 10.3
Appleworks word, draw, paint, spreadsheet, database
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
256MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA hard drive
SuperDrive Sony 4x DVD-R/RW +R/RW
iDVD
Anti-virus not needed
5 x USB, 2 x Firewire, 10/100 Ethernet
Apple Pro Speakers (Harman Kardon)
iPhoto
AirPort Extreme Ready
Bluetooth Option
Ottomatic, Deimos Rising, Chess
1 year warrantee
Dimension 4600C (small form factor) - $2,116.00
18.1 in 1801FP Dell Ultrasharp? Digital Flat Panel Display 1280 x 1024 (SXGA)
Pentium® 4 Processor at 2.80GH
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home
WordPerfect® Office 11 with Money
256MB Dual Channel shared DDR
120GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
4x DVD+R+RW Drive CD-RW including Sonic RecordNow and MyDVD LE
MyDVD Deluxe software
McAfee Security Center w/VirusScan
Front/ Rear IEEE 1394 Ports and Dual Front PCMCIA slots, 10/100 Ethernet
64MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce4 MX? Graphics Card
Dell A425 Speakers w/Subwoofer
Dell Picture Studio, Photo Album Premium
Age of Mythology
1 year warrantee
My , my there goes Apple again with its ridiculously high costs. What a nerve to charge just $417 less that that design ICON - the Dull Dimension 4600C!
So they are both small form factor. The Dell has a better Processor, Hard drive & PCMCIA slots. The Apple has better Software bundle, Graphics, DVD -+ drive, is WiFi ready and the best adjustable Widescreen LCD design on the market... and it's $417 CHEAPER.
Finally, in dogged pursuit of these "oh the cost" high prices you guys keep mentioning - lets go to the top of the range. Surely Apple is charging a professional premium (though I have heard these nasty rumours of Virginia Tech choosing Apple on PRICE over Dull & HP).
Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5 - $2,999.00 ($2,699 - education)
Panther Mac OS X 10.3
1GHz frontside bus/processor
512K L2 cache/processor
512MB DDR400 128-bit SDRAM
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
160GB Serial ATA
SuperDrive Pioneer A06 4 x DVD-R/RW +R/RW
Three PCI-X Slots
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
No Monitor
Anti-Virus software not needed
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem
iLife (including iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD), QuickBooks for Mac New User Edition, Zinio Reader, Art Directors Toolkit, Microsoft Office v.X Test Drive, FileMaker Pro Trial, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, GraphicConverter, QuickTime, iChat, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, iCal, iSync, DVD Player, Mail, EarthLink, Acrobat Reader, Classic environment and Apple Developer Tools
Dell Precision?Workstation 650 - $4,495.00
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Dual Intel® Xeon? Processor, 3.06GHz
512MB,DDR266 SDRAM Memory
120GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive
40GB ATA-100 IDE,1 inch (7200 rpm
SATA PCI Non-RAID adapter for 2 SATA HDDs
4X DVD+RW/+R with Roxio® Easy CD Creator and DVD decode
ATI, FIRE GL? X1,128MB,1-2 VGA/DVI
No Monitor Option
McAfee? VirusScan® 8 retail ReadyWare
No DVD mastering software - very little software at all
You know guys - you're right - this makes me laugh... that damned pricey Apple. Imagine that - they think they can get away with selling a faster computer for $1,796 LESS than an INCREDIBLE Dull!!!
Lucky you guys are around to find them out, hey?
"the cost, the cost..."
I keep reading about this over & over in these fora, yet you never give any facts with the comments. Every time I compare Apple's prices with Dell's they look very competitive. What I usually read is someone comparing Apple's prices with what they can make a PC for themselves. Does anyone here really think that that is a fair comparison?
I could salvage an beat out a car involved in a minor accident, then salvage parts from similar models & get it on the road for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Does that make Ford an expensive make of cars? Of course it doesn't. Relative to their competitors they are good value.
But let me compare owning an Apple eMac to a home made PC - since you insist.
$749.00 - with education discount
1GHz PowerPC G4
128MB SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA drive
USB, Firewire, 10/100 Ethernet
Harman Kardon Speakers
Combo drive - DVD/CD-RW
It is a really basic first time PC with an excellent software bundle:
Mac OS X, Mail, iChat AV, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, QuickTime, iLife (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD(6)), iSync, iCal, DVD Player, AppleWorks, Mac OS X Chess and Classic environment; Microsoft Internet Explorer, EarthLink TotalAccess 2003 (includes 30 days of free service), AOL, Quicken 2004 Deluxe, World Book 2003 Edition, Microsoft Office v. X Test Drive, Tony Hawk?s Pro Skater 4, Deimos Rising, Sound Studio and Zinio Reader; Apple Hardware Test
A novice could use it for a year & then decide to upgrade. How much of a PC do you think you could up grade for $250. You could buy a new hard drive and perhaps the graphics card - if you sell the old ones, and provided they don't need a new power supply.
And what will $250 get you if you had an Apple eMac? You'd easily sell the eMac on eBay for $500 and go out and buy a brand new Mac with the latest software & OS! The only way you guys keep your home built PCs anywhere near that price is by pirating Windows, Office etc.
So owning a new Apple eMac every year costs $250/year.
A brand new DVD-R eMac also costs $250/year
A brand new 15" LCD iMac costs the same $250/year
The 17" LCD iMac will cost more at about $300/year
The iBooks cost from $250/300 per year
The 12" and 15" powerbooks will cost you $500
The 17" is expensive in my experience, costing $1000/year
The PowerMacs cost $600/800 per year
Compared to the depreciation of PCs this is phenomenal....
But fanboys just look at initial price. So lets compare Apple with Dell, a company with a reputation for outcompeting its competitors on price. Let's make sure the PC has ethernet, firewire, a game, an encyclopaedia, DVD mastering & burning software, anti-virus protection (the Mac won't need it), a similar screen, RAM & graphics... we can ignore the PCs poorer build quality & design.
eMac DVD-R $1099 ($999 education)
Panther OS X 10.3
1GHz PowerPC G4
256MB SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA drive
SuperDrive 4xDVD
Probably virus free for life
Flat 17" CRT with anti-glare coatings
ATI Radeon 7500 with 32MB DDR
Harmon Kardon Speakers
Appleworks drawing, painting & iPhoto
iMovie, iDVD, iTunes
4 USB, 2 Firewire, 10/100 Ethernet
1 year warrantee
Dimension 4600 - $1,246.00
XP Home
P4 2.8GHz
256 DDR RAM
120 GB SATA drive
Single Drive: 8x DVD+RW Drive
MyDVD Deluxe burning software
McAfee Security Center w/VirusScan (just one year)
Cheap curved 17" CRT
Integrated Intel® Extreme Graphics 2
Stereo Speakers
WordPerfect® Office 11
Dell Picture Studio, Photo Album Premium
Microsoft® Plus! Digital Media Edition
Must have USB, no mention of Firewire on site
1 year warrantee
Oh the PRICE, oh that expensive Apple! The spec is as close as I could get it. The Dell has better Processor, RAM, Hard drive, DVD +RW. The Apple has a better Screen, Graphics, Firewire, Software & Design... oh and it is up to $250 CHEAPER!
Let's go up market - the 17" WideScreen iMac:
iMac 17" - $1,799.00 ($1,699.00 - education)
17-inch widescreen LCD Digital 1400 x 900 custom size
1.25GHz PowerPC G4
Panther Mac OS X 10.3
Appleworks word, draw, paint, spreadsheet, database
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
64MB DDR video memory
256MB DDR333 SDRAM
80GB Ultra ATA hard drive
SuperDrive Sony 4x DVD-R/RW +R/RW
iDVD
Anti-virus not needed
5 x USB, 2 x Firewire, 10/100 Ethernet
Apple Pro Speakers (Harman Kardon)
iPhoto
AirPort Extreme Ready
Bluetooth Option
Ottomatic, Deimos Rising, Chess
1 year warrantee
Dimension 4600C (small form factor) - $2,116.00
18.1 in 1801FP Dell Ultrasharp? Digital Flat Panel Display 1280 x 1024 (SXGA)
Pentium® 4 Processor at 2.80GH
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home
WordPerfect® Office 11 with Money
256MB Dual Channel shared DDR
120GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)
4x DVD+R+RW Drive CD-RW including Sonic RecordNow and MyDVD LE
MyDVD Deluxe software
McAfee Security Center w/VirusScan
Front/ Rear IEEE 1394 Ports and Dual Front PCMCIA slots, 10/100 Ethernet
64MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce4 MX? Graphics Card
Dell A425 Speakers w/Subwoofer
Dell Picture Studio, Photo Album Premium
Age of Mythology
1 year warrantee
My , my there goes Apple again with its ridiculously high costs. What a nerve to charge just $417 less that that design ICON - the Dull Dimension 4600C!
So they are both small form factor. The Dell has a better Processor, Hard drive & PCMCIA slots. The Apple has better Software bundle, Graphics, DVD -+ drive, is WiFi ready and the best adjustable Widescreen LCD design on the market... and it's $417 CHEAPER.
Finally, in dogged pursuit of these "oh the cost" high prices you guys keep mentioning - lets go to the top of the range. Surely Apple is charging a professional premium (though I have heard these nasty rumours of Virginia Tech choosing Apple on PRICE over Dull & HP).
Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5 - $2,999.00 ($2,699 - education)
Panther Mac OS X 10.3
1GHz frontside bus/processor
512K L2 cache/processor
512MB DDR400 128-bit SDRAM
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
160GB Serial ATA
SuperDrive Pioneer A06 4 x DVD-R/RW +R/RW
Three PCI-X Slots
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro
No Monitor
Anti-Virus software not needed
64MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem
iLife (including iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie and iDVD), QuickBooks for Mac New User Edition, Zinio Reader, Art Directors Toolkit, Microsoft Office v.X Test Drive, FileMaker Pro Trial, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, GraphicConverter, QuickTime, iChat, Safari, Sherlock, Address Book, iCal, iSync, DVD Player, Mail, EarthLink, Acrobat Reader, Classic environment and Apple Developer Tools
Dell Precision?Workstation 650 - $4,495.00
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Dual Intel® Xeon? Processor, 3.06GHz
512MB,DDR266 SDRAM Memory
120GB SATA, 7200 RPM Hard Drive
40GB ATA-100 IDE,1 inch (7200 rpm
SATA PCI Non-RAID adapter for 2 SATA HDDs
4X DVD+RW/+R with Roxio® Easy CD Creator and DVD decode
ATI, FIRE GL? X1,128MB,1-2 VGA/DVI
No Monitor Option
McAfee? VirusScan® 8 retail ReadyWare
No DVD mastering software - very little software at all
You know guys - you're right - this makes me laugh... that damned pricey Apple. Imagine that - they think they can get away with selling a faster computer for $1,796 LESS than an INCREDIBLE Dull!!!
Lucky you guys are around to find them out, hey?
Cerb
Elite Member
Beachbreeze, a P4 2.8 is in a totally different league than a G4 1GHz. It's only a little below the dual G5 2GHz in performance.
For a workstation, assuming you have appps that run in OS X, the G5 machine isn't bad, but that dual Xeon would stomp it into the ground.
I get $2146 for the Dell 4600 with a 3.2GHz P4C, 18.1" LCD and 1GB RAM.
Noe one is denying the software isn't worth something--it just isn't worth that much to most of us, who often use free software and uncommon software. I have the OS (I might get XP one of thesse days) and Paint Shop Pro (I might upgrade this, too...6 is getting long in the tooth), the rest, aside from games, is free stuff, like OpenOffice.
The other problem with price is that most people get off on those 2.8GHz Celeron deals. Sure, it's $500 for a PC...but come over here and check out this $700 eMachine that will be able to do everything you want and last a good year longer.
For a workstation, assuming you have appps that run in OS X, the G5 machine isn't bad, but that dual Xeon would stomp it into the ground.
I get $2146 for the Dell 4600 with a 3.2GHz P4C, 18.1" LCD and 1GB RAM.
Noe one is denying the software isn't worth something--it just isn't worth that much to most of us, who often use free software and uncommon software. I have the OS (I might get XP one of thesse days) and Paint Shop Pro (I might upgrade this, too...6 is getting long in the tooth), the rest, aside from games, is free stuff, like OpenOffice.
The other problem with price is that most people get off on those 2.8GHz Celeron deals. Sure, it's $500 for a PC...but come over here and check out this $700 eMachine that will be able to do everything you want and last a good year longer.
beachbreeze
Member
That Xeon will certainly not "stomp it into the ground"
Look here: http://www.architosh.com/features/2004/g5-interview/2004-interv-g5nem-1.phtml
The writers of Vectorworks did an assessment of their own software on Xeons, P4s and G5s - there was some serious stomping going on but it wasn't Intel doing the stomping.
As I said on price, Apple eMacs cost just $250 to upgrade to a new machine every year! How much cheaper can you get?
MercenaryForHire
Lifer
- M4H
beachbreeze
Member
Mac4Hire quotes a guy saying we don't know why our software runs faster on the G5 yet... and be cautious about benchmarks in the real world... which is sound advice, except Mac4Hire then links another benchmark!
Hey Mac - burn that candle at both ends...
MercenaryForHire
Lifer
Their benchmark is what's in question. Let's see some full testing methodology and system specifications.
Oh, and the metaphor you want is "the pot calling the kettle black" - but when there's only one party defending admittedly questionable benchmarks, it doesn't apply.
Insert 25 cents to continue making a fool of yourself. 😉
- M4H
Boardmonger
Senior member
I haven't read all the posts here, so I am sorry if I repeat something.
I haven't really used a Mac since my first Mac clasic, but my room mate has a powerbook. He keeps saying he doesn't think he will ever buy a PC again. He figures since he will most like be working on a PC for 8 hours a day (he is a computer science major who know works at amazon.) I think he is right on a few levels. His powerbook is very nice for working on "Home" type apps (iLife.) and it is a nice change to come "home to" from work.
I would really think about buying a mac if I didn't want to do any gaming because on it I can run almost every OS on it and those who say you can't run as many apps I say this:
1 Mac OSX apps
2. Most linux apps can be recompiled to run on the Mac due to OS X using BSD.
3 Virtual PC is now owned by MS and you can buy WinXP & Virtual PC together now, which shows me that MS doesn't care what system you use they just want you to run windows 😉
I Love apples mobile line and I am trying to decide between a thinkpad or a powerbook for my next mobile machine. I would "think" more about the desktops, but the box cost and display cost are too high for me (that doesn't mean they aren't nice though.)
I haven't really used a Mac since my first Mac clasic, but my room mate has a powerbook. He keeps saying he doesn't think he will ever buy a PC again. He figures since he will most like be working on a PC for 8 hours a day (he is a computer science major who know works at amazon.) I think he is right on a few levels. His powerbook is very nice for working on "Home" type apps (iLife.) and it is a nice change to come "home to" from work.
I would really think about buying a mac if I didn't want to do any gaming because on it I can run almost every OS on it and those who say you can't run as many apps I say this:
1 Mac OSX apps
2. Most linux apps can be recompiled to run on the Mac due to OS X using BSD.
3 Virtual PC is now owned by MS and you can buy WinXP & Virtual PC together now, which shows me that MS doesn't care what system you use they just want you to run windows 😉
I Love apples mobile line and I am trying to decide between a thinkpad or a powerbook for my next mobile machine. I would "think" more about the desktops, but the box cost and display cost are too high for me (that doesn't mean they aren't nice though.)
Rectalfier
Golden Member
Apples..... I eat them for breakfast.
Regs
Lifer
I think Apple makes great computers. Very powerful and reliable machines. They could very well be the best for workstations just from the programs and OS alone.
But, they're mighty expensive and they never accommodated themselves with the rest of the market. No generic equivalents, no easy upgradeable maintainance. Such a shame.
But, they're mighty expensive and they never accommodated themselves with the rest of the market. No generic equivalents, no easy upgradeable maintainance. Such a shame.
Actually, I believe they said in one of their earnings reports/calls it was something like 36% or more for hardware on average. I can't remember the exact number(s), but it was so redicously large it was almost unbelievable.
On owning an Apple, I think they are overpriced especially when you look at the alternatives (simple economics). There are other things in life I could be putting that money toward. Plus I love tweaking and building my own systems and choosing my own parts. Apple takes the fun out of that. I did own 2 Powerbooks before coming back to a PC. A 17 inch Ghz and a 15 inch Titanium. Sold them both and built a PC for about 1/4 of what I sold the 17 inch for. Have no regrets.
Chris
I think the powerPC architecture has potential (though whoever believes macs are faster then a high end PC's are being fooled) but it seems like all of the other components i.e memory, hard drive etc are mid range with the high end price tag. Also I have never used anything other then windows which seems to be working fine for me. My PC is rock stable now that I am a little more fussy about my components. I guess I just like the fact that the PC architecture is essentially open source with a wide variety of options, while apple controls the mac architecture.
Cerb
Elite Member
One small piece of software written for one small area, sure. That's nothing new.
It's a question of common applications on all platforms.
How does the GIMP compare? Apache? Photoshop? The dozen games out for the Mac? Etc.
Any niche application can be made to do infinitely well on a single platform, even on the x86 side of things.
Eug
Lifer
GIMP - I dunno. I don't think anyone uses the GIMP for benching. It runs fine though, under X11 in OS X.
Apache - I dunno. Apple has their own Apache benches, but I have not seen any comparative 3rd party benches of Apache for verification. However, it's interesting to note that Apache is included in OS X.
Photoshop - It depends. If you bench using the most commonly used actions and give each test equal weight, a dual G5 2.0 is faster than a dual Xeon 3.06. If you include in your bench the rarely used filters, then the Xeon wins.
Games - The PC usually wins.
Anyways, as I've said before, if one excludes games, a dual G5 2.0 runs at about the speed of a dual Xeon 2.8 on average, judging by all the benches I've seen. However, if you're a hardcore gamer, buy a Windows single processor PC.
Margins on Apple equipment are in the 25-27% range.
Interestingly though, if you configure a higher-end name brand dual Xeon with the same feature set as a dual G5, then the prices are in the same ballpark. When the dual G5 2.0 came out, it was actually cheaper than a dual Xeon 3.06 from Dell configured the same way. However, AFAIK that is no longer true. (The Dells have dropped in price, but the dual G5s have not.) A dual 2.8 Xeon might always have been a bit cheaper, I dunno, However, it certainly would not have been by a large margin when the dual G5 2.0 came out. When the dual 2.4-2.5 GHz G5 update happens, it will have to be compared to a dual Xeon 3.2 or 3.4, since that's where the performance will be. I suspect the next update of the Power Mac will be within the month, and it will likely be at the same price point I'm guessing, as that's how Apple usually keeps their pricing structure. Some more on the PowerPC 970FX G5 2.5 GHz:
Big Blue gives 90-nano boost to PowerPCs
The tech giant plans to announce on Friday that it has started mass production of PowerPCs on the 90-nanometer process, which refers to the average feature size on the chips. (A nanometer is a billionth of a meter.) The PowerPC 970FX, which is used inside IBM's blade servers and Apple Computer's Xserve G5 server, is the first processor to be made with this manufacturing method.
Big Blue is expected to describe a 2.5GHz version of the chip made on the 90-nanometer process at the International Solid State Circuits Conference (ISSCC) in San Francisco next week. PowerPCs on the market today, produced on a 130-nanometer process, top out at 2GHz.
To make the new PowerPCs, IBM is combining layers of silicon on insulator (SOI) and strained silicon.
Back to dual Xeons... You can configure Newegg-ified home-built dual Xeon for cheaper, but that's a different kettle of fish of course. For the home user with lots of time for troubleshooting that's fine, but any business user would be stupid to build his own PC.
Not sure that means. Memory is DDR400 (dual channel) and you can buy the memory from Crucial or whatever. Just like one wouldn't buy extra memory from Dell, one doesn't buy extra memory from Apple when configuring a computer. Similarly, drives are SATA and you can buy extra ones from Newegg or whatever.
Speaking of memory, Anand just upgraded his dual G5 2.0 Power Mac to 4 GB. Nice. 😀
Anyways guys, if you have time, I recommend you read Anand's Macdates. Very informative, and it's nice to see someone at AT not approaching the Mac from the gamers' perspective for a change.
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