anand updates his nforce2 article

[Gstanfor]

I notice anand has finally taken the time to correct some of the glaring deficiencies and omissions of his original nforce2 article. It's about time.

I did like one quote from the new article in particular:

The conclusion: there's no performance drop in 2D when using the nForce2's IGP over a GeForce4 Ti 4600. We're running similar benchmarks for another review and to give you an idea of how Intel's 845G fares in this test, discrete graphics is around 11% faster than the 845G's integrated graphics in Business Winstone 2001. Do you see one reason why nForce isn't high on Intel's list of chipsets to support the Pentium 4?

What do you reckon about a statement like that wingznut? Or is it closer to "never mind the performance - it's not intel branded"? And we all know that things branded Intel consistently provide the very best performance, don't we?



Greg http://anandtech.com/printarticle.html?i=1731

 

[Wingznut]

Well golly-geez there Greg (he says in his best Slingblade-ish southern redneck drawl), I reckon there that I'm not surprised!


However... I am somewhat surprised that you basically called me out to tell me that the nForce2 performs 11% better than the i845's integrated graphics in 2D applications.

I didn't know anyone cared about 2D performance any more. Is there even a graphics solution available that isn't more than adequate to open Excel???

(You really ought to get over this fetish you have about showing up Intel employees.)

 

[Bovinicus]

It's not that there were really and omissions. There were actually updates to the drivers and chipset silicon itself.

 

[Gstanfor]

If intel is so certain that consumers won't care about an 11% differential in 2d scores and are confident that Granite Bay is superior to anything nVidia's nForce series can offer, then Intel should grant nVidia a chipset license (on terms at least as good as SiS got) and let the consumers decide for themselves.

If Intel is correct, nothing much will change market share wise.

Of course none of this will happen, because someone other than Intel is sporting better performance numbers, and Intel has its chipset market share to jealously guard (acting the way Intel is towards nVidia should be a great way to bring the matter to the attention of the DOJ though...)

Greg

 

[Bluga]

Originally posted by: Wingznut
Well golly-geez there Greg (he says in his best Slingblade-ish southern redneck drawl), I reckon there that I'm not surprised!


However... I am somewhat surprised that you basically called me out to tell me that the nForce2 performs 11% better than the i845's integrated graphics in 2D applications.

I didn't know anyone cared about 2D performance any more. Is there even a graphics solution available that isn't more than adequate to open Excel???

(You really ought to get over this fetish you have about showing up Intel employees.)

you just can't stand people criticizing intel can you?

 

[Adul]

i enjoyed the improvement of this over the last article.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
If intel is so certain that consumers won't care about an 11% differential in 2d scores and are confident that Granite Bay is superior to anything nVidia's nForce series can offer, then Intel should grant nVidia a chipset license (on terms at least as good as SiS got) and let the consumers decide for themselves.

If Intel is correct, nothing much will change market share wise.

Of course none of this will happen, because someone other than Intel is sporting better performance numbers, and Intel has its chipset market share to jealously guard (acting the way Intel is towards nVidia should be a great way to bring the matter to the attention of the DOJ though...)

Greg

When did Intel ever say that "customers won't care about an 11% differential in 2d scores", or anything even close to that?

Originally posted by: Bluga
you just can't stand people criticizing intel can you?

Nah, it's not that, Bluga. If he was actually criticizing me for something that I actually did or said, anything tangible, I would have no problem with that at all. But what is he criticizing me about? I've never said anything to the effect of "never mind the performance - it's not intel branded", nor anything like "Intel consistently provide the very best performance".

You see, several months ago, Greg posted something to the effect of "My goal is to discredit every Intel employee on this board." Just prior to that, pm attempted to have a mature conversation with him via private msg. How did Greg react? Well, he posted the private msg conversation, simply to try and carry out his above motive.

And every now and then he calls me out on things like the above. Pretty much every one, I've ignored. (As I probably should've in this case.) Nonetheless, he puts words in my mouth and implies that I said things that I didn't, as he did in the above posts.

Greg hates Intel... And that's fine. There are a few people who share in his opinion. But why bring me into it? What do I have to do with the topic at hand ("anand updates his nforce2 article")???

 

[ObiDon]

If intel is so certain that consumers won't care about an 11% differential in 2d scores

OMG!!!! 11%?!?!?!? Now my windows will pop open in 8 milliseconds instead of 9 milliseconds! Imagine all the time I will save!!!

Grow up, dude.

 

[merlocka]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

What do you reckon about a statement like that wingznut? Or is it closer to "never mind the performance - it's not intel branded"? And we all know that things branded Intel consistently provide the very best performance, don't we?

Dude, your an idiot and a troll. Go buy an nForce2 and rub it against yourself. Oh wait... can't buy one.

 

[majewski9]

Yeah Wingznut looks like you have another person that admires your unbiased opinions!

Merlocka very very soon Nforce2 will hit the streets and the fact that you can buy Intel 845g isnt any comfort. Nvidia's solution is clearly superior to any intergrated graphics chipset or any chipset for AMD. Gstanfor isnt the only one excited about Nforce2. I plan on purchasing one myself. I just wish that ABit would produce an Nforce2 spp max board with no legacy ports. Not that I think the design is superior I just think those boards look cooler.

 

[Wingznut]

Maj, I'm not sure where my "biased opinions" have come into play. Where have I ever given my opinion on the nForce2 chipset?

Furthermore, I agree that nForce 2 (when it's finally available) is a very attractive option for the AMD platform. I've never denied that. As a matter of fact... If I were to build an AMD system, undoubtedly it would be on an nVidia chipset.

And herein lies the problem... I've never said any different, yet Greg keeps implying that I have.

The topic that Greg started is a very good, very newsworthy thread. Why he felt the compulsion to bring me into the fray... Well, I have no idea.

 

[majewski9]

First off I think everyone whose not a gaming fanatic appreciates good 2d performance. Everyone who buys matrox will tell you that 2d makes a difference too.

Wingznut you are one of the most biased people here. 1- you claim to work for Intel 2- you always seem to have pro Intel opinions 3- even when the AthlonXP was cleaning Intels clock in the benches you were still claiming p4 willmette was superior. Only Fkloster has a more pro Intel attitude than you and he is admittely an idiot.

Wingznut I was not throwing you into a flame war. I was simply pointing out I'm not the only one that notices your biased opinions.

 

[Wingznut]

1. That's because I do work for Intel.
2. That's because I do work for Intel.
3. I'm not sure that I recall ever saying a blanket statement like "Willamette is superior to Athlon". I may have given pros and cons for each... but I don't remember ever criticizing anyone for purchasing AMD.

And don't you think it's a bit odd that YOU are actually calling OTHER people biased? (Hey kettle, meet pot.)

Ok, that's all fine and dandy... However, as usual, you didn't answer the question at hand. Where have I ever given my opinion on the nForce2 chipset? How can you call me biased in this discussion, if I've never given my opinion?

 

[MikeMike]

wait wait wait!!!

i wanna get a i854g for my new amd xp setup!! where can i get this? (i cant)

i also wanna get a nwe nforce2 borad for my p4 setup!! where can i get this? (i cant)

actually yth do you even care about saying that the nf2 is better than an i845g when they are for different platforms!!!

that doesnt matter intel has its side, nvidia has its side!!!

so who gives a flying f***

ok but all in all the nf2 is a sweet board! for the XP!

now the only way it is legit to compare them and say which is superior, is to have nvidia, get in bed w/ sis, (which will nevr happen) so they can help sis make intel nf2 boards.

 

[ndee]

Gstanfor, on here, he is just another user like you and me. No matter where he works.

 

[merlocka]

Originally posted by: majewski9
First off I think everyone whose not a gaming fanatic appreciates good 2d performance. Everyone who buys matrox will tell you that 2d makes a difference too.

Wingznut you are one of the most biased people here. 1- you claim to work for Intel 2- you always seem to have pro Intel opinions 3- even when the AthlonXP was cleaning Intels clock in the benches you were still claiming p4 willmette was superior. Only Fkloster has a more pro Intel attitude than you and he is admittely an idiot.

Wingznut I was not throwing you into a flame war. I was simply pointing out I'm not the only one that notices your biased opinions.

Wingnut and PM have chosen to let people know that they work for Intel.

If I worked for Intel, I'd take every chance to point out factual advantages of Intel CPU's over AMD cpu's. Why not? Should I point out that at $50 the Athlon XP1600+ is a great budget buy, or should I point out that Intel is offering killer value at $190 for a retail 2.4B?

Wingnut is less bias towards Intel than 99% of the Anandtech AMD Fanboys are towards AMD. Jesus, there was a thread around here somewhere begging people to buy AMD chips (BUT NOT THE CHEAP ONES WITH NO PROFIT MARGIN) so AMD could stay afloat... what the hell is wrong with people?!?!!?!??

 

[Bovinicus]

Everything has to turn into some kind of flamewar doesn't it? The topic of this thread is a reasonable one, but you people had to go and warp it into something ugly. Can't we all just get along? Who cares what processors, or for that matter, what hardware people use? Why should I care if someone uses NVIDIA instead of ATi or AMD instead of Intel? It's none of my business. I will be happy to offer my opinion, but I am not going to force anyone to think one way or another. Just let it go. Both companies make high quality processors that are worthy of purchase.

 

[Pink0]

Dude, your an idiot and a troll. Go buy an nForce2 and rub it against yourself. Oh wait... can't buy one.

This pretty much sums it up for me.

Wingnut and PM have chosen to let people know that they work for Intel.

I believe that it's Intel policy that they do this in public places so that people recognize that what they post is a personal opinon and not Intel's. "The opinions expressed in the following programs are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect..."

Personally, I don't see what nforce2 has to do with Intel. Everyone knows that Intel has some shady business practices. Everyone knows why Nvidia and VIA don't have bus licences. That's the way the business world works. If you don't like it, don't buy Intel. Think of it this way, nforce is a superior platform. That's great news for AMD. It might swing some customers over their way.
Rather than comparing the performance to Intel's chipset, I'd like more focus put where it matters: on how badly it shallacks VIA. I don't like via. I think they're a shady business with poor hardware and worse drivers. I'm glad to see them surpassed in the public eye.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Pink0

Dude, your an idiot and a troll. Go buy an nForce2 and rub it against yourself. Oh wait... can't buy one.

This pretty much sums it up for me.

Wingnut and PM have chosen to let people know that they work for Intel.

I believe that it's Intel policy that they do this in public places so that people recognize that what they post is a personal opinon and not Intel's. "The opinions expressed in the following programs are those of the participants and do not necessarily reflect..."

Yeah, but we could choose not to divulge such information. I know that there are people here who work for all sorts of different high-tech companies, but choose not to mention it.

I mention that I work at Intel because I want people to understand that sometimes I have a different perspective than most enthusiasts. Obviously it also makes me a target at times, to certain people. But if they choose to be that way... Well I'm not going to hide who I am to cater to them.

 

[SexyK]

I agree with everyone that the personal flames or "call-outs" or whatever are completely unnecessary, but aside from that, I dont see what the big deal is about an 11% advantage in 2d applications. I mean, if I'm going to use integrated graphics, then obviously I'm not doing graphics intensive works, so that performace will be negligable. On the other hand, if i want to do heavy 3d gaming or graphics work and I'm using a XP2100+ or a P4 2.8GHz, then there's no way I'm going to be using Intel or nVidia's integrated video solution, so whats the problem? Sure, nForce2 should be a great platform for the XP. But I think the line "Do you see one reason why nForce isn't high on Intel's list of chipsets to support the Pentium 4?" is completely rediculous. Intel offers an integrated solution that works perfectly fine for that market, and packages it on one the most stable and high performance PC chipsets in the world. Obviously it doesnt make sense to license out the rights. Hell, there's no way to even tell how an Nforce derivitive would perform with the P4's arcitechture! Come on, I'm all for giving kudos where they are deserved, but everything positive that AMD does doesn't have to be thrown in Intels face... last time I checked they were doing fine with their own buisness model.

Kramer

 

[kgraeme]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor

What do you reckon about a statement like that wingznut? Or is it closer to "never mind the performance - it's not intel branded"? And we all know that things branded Intel consistently provide the very best performance, don't we?

I reckon you're a wanker of a troll.

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: majewski9
I just wish that ABit would produce an Nforce2 spp max board with no legacy ports. Not that I think the design is superior I just think those boards look cooler.

i think this sums this guy right there.
next thing we know he'll be buying a mac.


brand bias is lame. i buy whatever's fastest when the time comes to build a system. my first was intel, then i built nothing but amd for a while, and my newest is intel again. my system will own anything AMD has to offer, nforce2 or not. likewise the AMD systems i built owned intel at the time. but there was no point getting your panties in a twist over which brand it was. just buy the best at the time (which is intel right now) and then don't worry about it. as for 2D performance, no one will notice the difference. quality we can notice, but performance can't get any better and still be noticed. and most people on AT wouldn't touch the onboard video anyway.

 

[NOX]

OMG!!! 11% faster than the 845G's integrated graphics in Business Winstone 2001!!! Where's my car keys I'm heading down to my local computer shop right now to buy one of these bad boys... oh wait... there not even available!!!

(being serious) You know what Gstonfor, I surely hope the f*** so this nforce2 IG is faster, because by the time this board is readily available the 845G will be six+ months old, and to be only 11% faster is a bit sad if you ask me.

To be very honest, I don't know of any gamers (hardcore for sure), even occasional gamers that use IG. The only people I know that use them are OEM vendors, small and big businesses.

 

[Snoop]

The only people I know that use them are OEM vendors, small and big businesses.

Thats like 90% of the pc market.

 

[zsouthboy]

Okay, i clicked on this thread, expecting to see some comments about Anand's update to the article, instead i find some guy singling out another member, and using the article for backup to his argument.

Gstanfor, you sir are an idiot. Gimme a break. Everyone has opinions, regardless of the company they work for. I have read most of Wingz's posts and have not seen one yet that says "never mind the performance - it's not Intel branded."

Now, on to the real issue:

I enjoyed the update to the article. The increases they got intrigued me, I may end up buying one of these boards. I am tired of Via doing a re-hash of a re-hashed chipset, with the SAME problems, and using software patches to fix them... but i have had little to no choice before. I know nVidia will have at LEAST as decent drivers as Via, they can't do worse, it isn't possible.

Integrated chipset solutions are fine for their market.
However, i would like to point out, that probably 95% of the current PC users have onboard graphics, with NO AGP slot, and probably don't understand things like graphics card upgrades anyway. So, Nforce is good. Intel's integrated stuff is good. The Radeon IGP stuff is good. You guys realize, that for the most part, ALL games that were coming out before integrated chipsets with (albeit pathetic) 3D capability were used had SOFTWARE rendering as the low end... so they didn't have a gaping hole of users that could not run the games... at least now, 3D cards are required on everything, and they can do that without alienating 85% of the computer users that would purchase their software.

Now, if we could get nVidia and Intel to put DX8 hardware(doesn't even have to be all hardware, just software emulation that runs slowly) into their integrated chipsets, I bet we would finally start seeing some games that take advantage of our hardware. I realize this isn't going to happen any time soon, it's simply not cost effective.