Analysts compare TSMC/Intel/Samsung nodes: Intel still at the top

[frozentundra123456]

But will it be there? Seems like the power savings with each new node are getting less and less.

 

[jpiniero]

But will it be there? Seems like the power savings with each new node are getting less and less.

We will have to see, but even by the time Skylake started development, Intel still didn't GAF about phones and tablets. The urgency to get Core's power down to phone levels just wasn't there.

 

[frozentundra123456]

We will have to see, but even by the time Skylake started development, Intel still didn't GAF about phones and tablets. The urgency to get Core's power down to phone levels just wasn't there.

Yea, but they are late, late, late to the party now. Even if Cannonlake can go into phones, Android is firmly entrenched and there are a myriad of "good enough" to very nice chips already on the market and more on the way. Their only advantage would be x86 apps and windows, and I dont know how big the market is for that.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Well, they are kind of between a rock and a hard place there. I know the ark intel price is not what the OEM pays, but the cheapest core M processor is 281.00, while the price of the 3735F is 18.00 for instance. I am sure the core M doesnt cost 15x as much to make, but I dont know the cost structure and how much margin they would be willing to sacrifice to get core M into phones and more tablets.

I would gladly pay 200.00 for a nice core M tablet, but most are stuck with atom or very expensive like Surface 3 and Surface pro. Doesnt even the most efficient core M still use quite a bit more power than atom though? I mean in real life use, not just based on TDP or SDP or whatever.

Edit: maybe they should just fire everyone who was ever associated with Atom and use the cost savings to lower the price of core M. Just kidding, sort of, but one does have to wonder if Atom is worth the resources devoted to it.

Forget Ark prices for anything that involves OEMs and others. They dont even pay a fraction of those prices. If Intel wanted they could sell Core M chips to 20-30$.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Smartphone market is entering a downward spiral now. So that game is over no matter what. Forget 700-900$ phones. Now the new trend is 400$ and will keep going down as volume keeps shrinking. Apple didn't make the iPhone SE for their blue eyes sake.

IoT and Servers is the last growth segments.

 

[coercitiv]

But will it be there? Seems like the power savings with each new node are getting less and less.

14nm brought about some nice power savings when operating between 2 and 3 Ghz. It's only when going past 3Ghz that lines become a blurry. I don't own a mobile 14nm chip, so cannot say much about idle power consumption.

Anyway, we'll know when Intel gets serious about placing Core M into a phablet/phone: they'll merge the chipset as well. The future is fusion

 

[ShintaiDK]

14nm brought about some nice power savings when operating between 2 and 3 Ghz. It's only when going past 3Ghz that lines become a blurry. I don't own a mobile 14nm chip, so cannot say much about idle power consumption.

Anyway, we'll know when Intel gets serious about placing Core M into a phablet/phone: they'll merge the chipset as well. The future is fusion

Idle is already down into the 0.25-0.50W for the cores if I am to believe my i3 6100U NUC. And that's with desktop apps and services in ~(almost)idle. The IGP is 0.03-0.11W. The uncore is the sinner. But it also contain the DRAM controller (~1.5W).

 

[jpiniero]

Yea, but they are late, late, late to the party now. Even if Cannonlake can go into phones, Android is firmly entrenched and there are a myriad of "good enough" to very nice chips already on the market and more on the way.

The idea would be a phablet that would be able to fully replace everything, including their PC. Maybe some sort of wireless docking station so they can use it like a desktop when at home.

 

[Phynaz]

SPARC M7 is a specialized 32-core 4.13Ghz server chip on TSMC 20nm. SPARC64 X+ is a 16-core server chip at 3.7GHz on TSMC 28nm.

Article is about 16nm

 

[VirtualLarry]

But it also contain the DRAM controller (~1.5W).

RE: SKL DRAM controller - do you think that the DRAM controller in SKL takes more or less power than the one in Haswell? Haswell only supports DDR3, AFAIK, while SKL supports DDR4 or DDR3L. Not to mention, it has to run at higher clocks (without overclocking the DRAM) than HSW. (DDR4-2133 stock speed, versus DDR3-1333 or DDR3-1600 stock speed, depending on the CPU.)

I'm wondering if SKL's DRAM controller actually takes more power.

 

[ShintaiDK]

RE: SKL DRAM controller - do you think that the DRAM controller in SKL takes more or less power than the one in Haswell? Haswell only supports DDR3, AFAIK, while SKL supports DDR4 or DDR3L. Not to mention, it has to run at higher clocks (without overclocking the DRAM) than HSW. (DDR4-2133 stock speed, versus DDR3-1333 or DDR3-1600 stock speed, depending on the CPU.)

I'm wondering if SKL's DRAM controller actually takes more power.

It uses less power than on Haswell. At least 6700K(2400) vs 4670(1600).

 

[hojnikb]

Idle is already down into the 0.25-0.50W for the cores if I am to believe my i3 6100U NUC. And that's with desktop apps and services in ~(almost)idle. The IGP is 0.03-0.11W. The uncore is the sinner. But it also contain the DRAM controller (~1.5W).

Thats a pretty low iGPU use. Mine (its in a laptop though) always uses 0.450-0.5W in idle.
Looks like the last bios update f**** something.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I made sure to doublecheck IGP usage with the TV on and showing the desktop and it is so. I normally just use RDP, hence higher CPU load.

 

[Systems analyst]

Intel have admitted that their process has a lower transistor density than TSMC's; they had to resort to a normalisation process to make their numbers look better.
The big future markets include network SoCs and automotive chips, with of the order of 100 chips per car in the future, and 100 million cars per year.
The smart-phone market is still growing; there are over 6 billion mobile phone accounts in the world, and 'only' some 2 billion smart-phones; as technology advances, the SoCs become more and more advanced; 4k video is an example.
Broadcom's Tomahawk SoC has over 7 billion transistors; whose process is it manufactured on? Does it use any ARM IP? Network chips are a growth area.
ARM state that they are working on the production process with all the leading fabrication companies; does this include Intel? Do Intel use ARM POP IP?
Could AMD be using ARM IP in the production of Zen processors? - ARM are working with GloFo.

 

[Abwx]

The whole point of EE Times article is that there s no convenient metric to compare the different Finfets processes, yet the OP state in his title that one manufacturer is at the top while it is stated nowhere in the linked article, and for a reason.

Indeed the author of the article is asking to readers how to get an accurate picture and the answers are that things are not simple at all, among others that sizes are currently meaningless to characterise a process..

 

[el etro]

Density who knows, but about power we will know soon. Nuncun(LG custom chipset) and Pascal vs Maxwell are coming.