An question of religious freedom... a not so easy answer

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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Reading the thread on France banning the burqa got me thinking a bit, and led to the question of, how much can be excused under the reasoning of "religious freedom", even when it comes into conflict with the laws of a land?

The obvious answer, I think most would agree on, would be when those religious freedoms might interfere with the freedoms of somebody else. But then, what about a situation where the religious belief did not interfere with somebody else's rights directly, but was still in conflict with a law?

Something that came right to my mind, which the more I think about it, the more I believe this will become an issue sometime in the future... has to do with Islamic beliefs when it comes to banking and finance.

Islamic law, as it comes from the Koran, has pretty strict laws when it comes to finance, banking, interest, loans, etc. Muslims cannot charge or accept interest payments on loans, and are expressly prohibited from investments that aren't "kosher" in terms of Islamic beliefs (gambling, alcohol, etc).

This in itself does not really cause any conflicts with the law, as nobody is forcing them to participate in these activities, but the spin off is this, which I think could be a big problem:

Muslims are prohibited from gambling, or basically engaging in anything that could be even considered a game of chance. The Koran *expressly* prohibits insuring ones' health or property, since this is basically considered "gambling".

So, while it is pretty clear that not every Muslim in the world follows these Islamic laws, what about the ones that do? Would the government be able to force them to buy health insurance, since that would conflict with their religious beliefs?

I'm not trying to make any statements about anything else, I just think this would be an interesting conversation, and I would not be surprised at all if it became a real problem in some time.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Muslims are prohibited from gambling, or basically engaging in anything that could be even considered a game of chance. The Koran *expressly* prohibits insuring ones' health or property, since this is basically considered "gambling".

To beat a dead horse, they buy car insurance don't they?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Muslims have worked out ways to charge interest and still follow their rules.

I'm not familiar with their position on insurance.
 

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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To beat a dead horse, they buy car insurance don't they?

That's why I qualified it by saying that not all of them follow those strict rules. Also, nobody forces them to buy car insurance, only if they want to buy a car and drive. The difference now, is that the gov't will be requiring that all people buy health insurance. All it takes is one person who chooses to follow these well established religious laws, to yell foul when the government attempts to force them to violate their beliefs or face fines.
 

routan

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Sep 12, 2010
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Reading the thread on France banning the burqa got me thinking a bit, and led to the question of, how much can be excused under the reasoning of "religious freedom", even when it comes into conflict with the laws of a land?

The obvious answer, I think most would agree on, would be when those religious freedoms might interfere with the freedoms of somebody else. But then, what about a situation where the religious belief did not interfere with somebody else's rights directly, but was still in conflict with a law?

Something that came right to my mind, which the more I think about it, the more I believe this will become an issue sometime in the future... has to do with Islamic beliefs when it comes to banking and finance.

Islamic law, as it comes from the Koran, has pretty strict laws when it comes to finance, banking, interest, loans, etc. Muslims cannot charge or accept interest payments on loans, and are expressly prohibited from investments that aren't "kosher" in terms of Islamic beliefs (gambling, alcohol, etc).

This in itself does not really cause any conflicts with the law, as nobody is forcing them to participate in these activities, but the spin off is this, which I think could be a big problem:

Muslims are prohibited from gambling, or basically engaging in anything that could be even considered a game of chance. The Koran *expressly* prohibits insuring ones' health or property, since this is basically considered "gambling".

So, while it is pretty clear that not every Muslim in the world follows these Islamic laws, what about the ones that do? Would the government be able to force them to buy health insurance, since that would conflict with their religious beliefs?

I'm not trying to make any statements about anything else, I just think this would be an interesting conversation, and I would not be surprised at all if it became a real problem in some time.

PeshakJang, I am a Muslim and I have never read insuring either health or property being *expressly* prohibited in the Quran. :)
 

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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Does the Koran really forbid insurance? AFAIK every state in the union requires car insurance.

It forbids anything that could be contrived as gambling. Islamic banking law, where it is practiced around the world, considers insurance a form of gambling, since you are basically paying money and you don't know the outcome.

Muslims have worked out ways to charge interest and still follow their rules.

I'm not familiar with their position on insurance.

Maybe they already have a work-around on the insurance... I am not aware. Islamic banking isn't really that widespread in America though, so I can't imagine this options would be too available.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
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PeshakJang, I am a Muslim and I have never read insuring either health or property being *expressly* prohibited in the Quran. :)
Yeah, perhaps the OP can post the relevant Quran verses that address this.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
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My opinion is that if it comes down to a conflict between religious belief and the laws of the country, the laws of the country MUST take precedence.
 

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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Yeah, perhaps the OP can post the relevant Quran verses that address this.

I'll see what else I can find that might give more insight, but here is a quick rundown from wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking#Principles

The Qur'an prohibits gambling (games of chance involving money) and insuring ones' health or property (also considered a game of chance). The hadith, in addition to prohibiting gambling (games of chance), also prohibits bayu al-gharar (trading in risk, where the Arabic word gharar is taken to mean "risk" or excessive uncertainty).
 

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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PeshakJang, I am a Muslim and I have never read insuring either health or property being *expressly* prohibited in the Quran. :)

Ok, I'd rephrase that to *gambling* is expressly prohibited, and insurance is considered a form of gambling by those following Islamic/sharia law in finance.
 

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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Here is an explanation from the Institute of Islamic Banking

Prohibitions of Gharar, Maysir and Riba (Uncertainty/Risk, Gambling, Interest)

Gharar: An insurance contract contains gharar because, when a claim is not made, one party (insurance company) may acquire all the profits (premium) gained whereas the other party (participant) may not obtain any profit whatsoever. Ibn Taimiyah, a leading Muslim scholar, further reasoned "Gharar found in the contract exists because one party acquired profit while the other party did not". The prohibition on gharar would require all investment gains and losses to eventually be apportioned in order to avoid excessive uncertainty with respect to a return on the policyholder's investment.

Maysir: Islamic scholars have stated that maysir (gambling) and gharar are inter-related. Where there are elements of gharar, elements of maysir is usually present. Maysir exists in an insurance contract when; the policy holder contributes a small amount of premium in the hope to gain a larger sum; the policy holder loses the money paid for the premium when the event that has been insured for does not occur; the company will be in deficit if the claims are higher that the amount contributed by the policy holders.

Riba: Conventional endowment insurance policies promising a contractually-guaranteed payment, hence offends the riba prohibition. The element of riba also exists in the profit of investments used for the payment of policyholders’ claims by the conventional insurance companies. This is because most of the insurance funds are invested by them in financial instruments such as bonds and stacks which may contain elements of Riba.

I'd add also, that there are alternatives offered in the Islamic banking community which offer similar solutions to traditional insurance, while falling within these guidelines. However, as I pointed out, this is not necessarily prevalent in the US. The problems I pointed out with somebody being able to claim that being forced to buy insurance violated their constitutional right to freedom of religion could still easily be a scenario should somebody choose to take that stance.
 
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routan

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Sep 12, 2010
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Here is an explanation from the Institute of Islamic Banking



I'd add also, that there are alternatives offered in the Islamic banking community which offer similar solutions to traditional insurance, while falling within these guidelines. However, as I pointed out, this is not necessarily prevalent in the US. The problems I pointed out with somebody being able to claim that being forced to buy insurance violated their constitutional right to freedom of religion could still easily be a scenario should somebody choose to take that stance.

PeshakJang, firstly, the concepts you discuss above are beyond the text of the Quran, except that gambling/games of chance is prohibited.

As for insurance, for example against misfortunes, that is not mentioned in the Quran, and I have not read any ruling which prohibits such thing.

Also, as a poster mentioned above, ACCORDING to Islam, if a nation has laws that do not agree with Islam, the national laws take precedence.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
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My opinion is that if it comes down to a conflict between religious belief and the laws of the country, the laws of the country MUST take precedence.
Not here in the US. If its a private organization, you've basically forfeited your rights.
 

Double Trouble

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Oct 9, 1999
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I'd never heard of any such provisions or teachings of Islam, so I guess I learned something new.

To me it's really very simple. Everyone is allowed to follow their own religion and it's teachings as much as they like, provided they adhere to all the laws and provided they don't negatively impact someone else's rights. In light of that logic, the secular law supersedes any religious one, and I'd expect everyone to have to abide by the law regardless of their objections.

Edit: thanks to routan for providing insight. I appreciate someone being able to provide insight into some of these things, it's very easy to get lost in the mud slinging and the crap you see on tv each day without getting some insight from someone more closely tied to it.
 

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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PeshakJang, firstly, the concepts you discuss above are beyond the text of the Quran, except that gambling/games of chance is prohibited.

As for insurance, for example against misfortunes, that is not mentioned in the Quran, and I have not read any ruling which prohibits such thing.

That's the interpretation according to commonly accepted Islamic law. If the Pope says that something is against the "laws" of Catholicism according to the bible, I could say that it is part of my religious beliefs.

Also, as a poster mentioned above, ACCORDING to Islam, if a nation has laws that do not agree with Islam, the national laws take precedence.

That's what Islam says... But America says you are protected from any laws restricting your free exercise of religion. Since it could be very easily, and correctly argued, that Islamic law forbids such a thing as insurance... even if you choose not to follow it... there's nothing stopping somebody from claiming that it would be a violation of their rights.
 

routan

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Sep 12, 2010
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That's the interpretation according to commonly accepted Islamic law. If the Pope says that something is against the "laws" of Catholicism according to the bible, I could say that it is part of my religious beliefs.



That's what Islam says... But America says you are protected from any laws restricting your free exercise of religion. Since it could be very easily, and correctly argued, that Islamic law forbids such a thing as insurance... even if you choose not to follow it... there's nothing stopping somebody from claiming that it would be a violation of their rights.

PeshakJang, two issues. Firstly, I will reiterate, the Quran does not "expressly" prohibit insurance.

Second, as per your own posts, the concept of insurance is not prohibited even according to interpretations. The Wikipedia link you provided has a section towards Islamic insurance.
 

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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To me it's really very simple. Everyone is allowed to follow their own religion and it's teachings as much as they like, provided they adhere to all the laws and provided they don't negatively impact someone else's rights. In light of that logic, the secular law supersedes any religious one, and I'd expect everyone to have to abide by the law regardless of their objections.

Well then, we get back to the question of France banning the burqa. There's an example of a law that could be taken either as an infringement on religion, or as a religious practice that comes into conflict with secular law.

Of course, we'd have to ignore the basis on which that law was formed, but say the law was passed strictly because of non-religious reasons. My point is, how far can religion be stretched to protect practices which may conflict with a nation's laws?
 

Double Trouble

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Oct 9, 1999
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That's what Islam says... But America says you are protected from any laws restricting your free exercise of religion. Since it could be very easily, and correctly argued, that Islamic law forbids such a thing as insurance... even if you choose not to follow it... there's nothing stopping somebody from claiming that it would be a violation of their rights.

Huh? There are many instances of US law trumping freedom of religion type concerns. Go ahead and claim that your religion requires you to marry 5 wives and see how that works out for ya. Or, that your religion requires that you smoke pot (rastafarians), or that your religion allows marriage to underage girls etc etc etc.

Time and again the courts have ruled that laws trump individual religious preferences if there are conflicts.
 

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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PeshakJang, two issues. Firstly, I will reiterate, the Quran does not "expressly" prohibit insurance.

Second, as per your own posts, the concept of insurance is not prohibited even according to interpretations. The Wikipedia link you provided has a section towards Islamic insurance.

It prohibits, by every account of those who are experts in Islamic law, insurance of the type we know in America. The Islamic Banking Institute quote explains why. There are Islamic forms of "insurance", but as I said, that type of banking is not common at all in the US.
 

PeshakJang

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Mar 17, 2010
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Huh? There are many instances of US law trumping freedom of religion type concerns. Go ahead and claim that your religion requires you to marry 5 wives and see how that works out for ya. Or, that your religion requires that you smoke pot (rastafarians), or that your religion allows marriage to underage girls etc etc etc.

Time and again the courts have ruled that laws trump individual religious preferences if there are conflicts.

In your examples, the law prohibits you from doing something, not forcing you to do something that is against your religion... I can see it as being slightly different.

It would be like forcing you to marry 5 wives, if your religion says you can only have one... to fit it to your example.

My point being... where is the line drawn?
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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In your examples, the law prohibits you from doing something, not forcing you to do something that is against your religion... I can see it as being slightly different.

It would be like forcing you to marry 5 wives, if your religion says you can only have one... to fit it to your example.

My point being... where is the line drawn?

No, it's not just prohibit you from doing something. For example, the law forces you to have your child medically treated in certain cases even if your religion specifically forbids it.
 

nonlnear

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Jan 31, 2008
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The Amish get along just fine without many financial instruments that they choose to abstain from. If some hardcore sharia bound Muslims want to create an insular community in the US and can manage to abide by the law of the land in their dealings with the outside world I have no objection.
 

woolfe9999

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Mar 28, 2005
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If anyone is curious what the SCOTUS has to say on this type of issue generally, as a matter of First Amendment doctrine, they have held, for example, that laws prohibiting the possession and use of peyote can be applied to native Americans who use it as part of a religious ritual, in spite of the First Amendment free exercise clause.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/drg28.htm

If I'm not mistaken, the same has also been held regarding religions which practice animal sacrifice where it runs afoul of animal cruelty laws.

- wolf
 
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