An Article By Noam Chomsky

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da loser

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
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just as i said last time, I've never read a piece by Chomsky that gives a solution to both our problems and the iraqis. His only try at a solution in that entire paper is "One way is to try to alleviate the threats by paying some attention to legitimate grievances, and by agreeing to become a civilized member of a world community, with some respect for world order and its institutions. "

What are the legitimate grievances by saddam hussein or the people he would hire or the people that run his weapons programs? That is what he's trying to get at right? trying to help alleviate the extremism by removing their angst.

Secondly, the only reason why other countries are scared of US power is simply that will make those countries less powerful, hold less influence, be unable to control less. So in order to solve that, you have to give them more control. But how much is enough control?
Also, just because we have large arguments between France, Russia, China, and Germanay does not mean peace will diminish. We're not going to go to war with those nations. In fact, it's a testimony to the fact that too much firepower and global economies show that war is not a viable option, so alternatives must be used. If he's arguing the it's the terrorist breeding grounds among the middle east countries is caused by oppression by governments and our support of these governments. I don't believe the US has this immense power over those nations. That's illustrated in this war. So removing what influence we have, I believe it is doubtful those countries will immediately solve their own problems. The question is who is worse, the briber or the one who takes the bribe?

The problem is not the US in causing war. The problem is the US has lost a PR battle in a world that blames the US for it's problems. Those people in those countries with oppresive regimes are simply not willing to die for freedom. I paraphrase from what foofoo posts, those countries would rather have tyranny than risk anarchy. So whether or not we wage war, will probably not effect the situation, because no matter what reasons will always be given. Therefore, it is in our interest to defend our interests, and say to the world: go to hell. However, the US does not do this. This nation feels we have an obligation to spread our freedom elsewhere (whether you're cynical about the government, the American people have always felt this). This feeling coupled with the fact of our immense power not only militarily but economically means we can do this.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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"As for Bush the first ending the first Gulf War, that was bowing to world pressure so that diplomacy could be engaged. That's what the anti-war bleeding hearts are all about, isn't it? Let's use diplomacy. Let's use sanctions. Let's do it the peaceful way. Now it's 12 years later and diplomacy failed. The doves had their chance."

That isn't the way I saw it. I felt that the factors were..

1. We had gotten Iraq out of Kuwait with very low casualties. Going farther would probably have increased the casualties and cost Bush Sr some of his popularity.
2. If we removed Saddam we would have to deal with the vacuum that created in Iraq. Too much trouble.
3. If we weakened Iraq too much it might imbalance the region. Again too much trouble.

At the time I thought it was a very bad mistake. I think so even more now.

I don't think that "doves" had any influence in the decision at all.
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
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Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
You're left with some simple question:
1) If the world a better place with a mass-murderer like Saddam running Iraq or would the world in general and Iraq in particular be better off if he was overthrown?
2) Is America safe if he's allowed to stay in power and develop WMDs in violation of all peaceful U.N. resolutions?
3) If sanctions don't work, how do you propose we remove him if not with force.

Once again, this is a test, so support your position.

I'd love to give a longer answer your loaded question quiz, but I just finished a post explaining my personal views about the necessity of the war as current circumstances stand.

1. I won't speculate as to what will make the world a better place (that's an answer that involves much more than disposing a bad leader or two), but certainly Iraq will be a better place without Hussein. America isn't safe with Hussein in power, and we're not safe without him in power.

2. America isn't safe period, and all the military spending in the world wouldn't be enough to make America safe. Like the Israelis, we may eventually learn to grudgingly accept the lack of absolute safety and get on with our lives. I agree with the angle brought up in the NYT article posted in this thread and feel that the Arab countries need to learn how to deal with their own bad leaders so they can stop bitching about "colonial imperialists" coming in and fixing their problems for them.

3. I suspect the US would have been marginally safer if we had just dropped the sanctions and let Hussein die of old age (kind of like Castro - durable ah heck that he is), but why speculate about alternate courses of action now that this one has been chosen? At least the surviving Iraqis will unarguably have better lives. I'll continue to argue against "preventive" US agression in the future, however, and we can discuss alternate courses of actions for those future particulars.


P.S. I'll take "seem to think you understand the situation" as a compliment. I've never been to an Islamic country (though I once dated someone who grew up in one), and I realize that the more I know, the more I realize how little I know. If someone asked me to write up a Mideast policy document for the US that would be guaranteed to be followed, I wouldn't take the opportunity. I pop into the occasional AT thread because it is just talk, and on the whole people are moderately civil about differences of opinion.
 

NightTrain

Platinum Member
Apr 1, 2001
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Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
This article by itself is a collection of meaningless histrionics. The only message I get from it is he doesn't like George W Bush.

That particular malady is more prevalent than pollen these days. You rarely read an anti-war message without the same sentiment. Moore had a national stage to voice his opposition to the war and instead chose to try and dig up the rotted corpse of Gore's futility.

"After accompanying Hillary Clinton on a USO tour for troops in Bosnia several years ago, Crow told a San Francisco Chronicle reporter, 'Once over there, I felt extremely patriotic. Here are these people, from eighteen-year-olds to military veterans, enduring real duress for the cause of peace. I don't ever want to play for a regular audience again, only military folks who are starving for music'"
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: Corn
Does the rest of the "world" care about Iraq?

One must look at the motivations behind the anti-US sentiment. Prior to Bush building up forces to liberate Iraq it appears the world had little care for the average Iraqi citizen. The world was content to allow Saddam's brutal rule. The world was also content to allow the continual starvation of the Iraqi civilians because of sanctions approved of by the "world".

The "world" cares not for the Iraqi people, their past actions document that fully.

World opinion has nothing to do with their supposed sympathy for the Iraqi people, it centers solely around the opportunity to take a few potshots at the USA.

If the world is wrong, why the fsck should I care what they think? The world would rather Saddam's subjects starve than have to endure the horror of another western democracy and potential American ally.

During the military build up, Liberation of Iraqi's *was not* the issue, it was to remove a "potential" threat to US security.
 

Jimbo

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Chomsky is an ass nugget.

Most people see his trash for what it is right about the time they graduate from school.
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
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Originally posted by: Jimbo
Chomsky is an ass nugget.

Most people see his trash for what it is right about the time they graduate from school.

What a brilliant argument. You just refuted all his points by calling him an "ass nugget". Absolutely brilliant! Well done, ol' chap.
 

NightTrain

Platinum Member
Apr 1, 2001
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"Washington?s vicious and destructive sanctions regime of the past ten years"

That was all I need to give the entire article the official <flush>.
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
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Originally posted by: NightTrain
"Washington?s vicious and destructive sanctions regime of the past ten years"

That was all I need to give the entire article the official <flush>.

Would you care to tell us what is wrong with that statement? Do you deny the truth of that statement?
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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Originally posted by: Morph
Originally posted by: NightTrain
"Washington?s vicious and destructive sanctions regime of the past ten years"

That was all I need to give the entire article the official <flush>.

Would you care to tell us what is wrong with that statement? Do you deny the truth of that statement?

The sanctions are by the UN.



 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
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That is nothing but semantics. It was the US that was the driving force behind those sanctions.
No, the member nations who voted for sanctions are collectively responsible for that action.
 

NightTrain

Platinum Member
Apr 1, 2001
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Originally posted by: Morph
Originally posted by: etech

The sanctions are by the UN.

That is nothing but semantics. It was the US that was the driving force behind those sanctions.


Everything good = UN
Everything bad = US

I guess when we get to pick and choose, whatever reality we wish just opens right up for us.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
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Originally posted by: JellyBaby
That is nothing but semantics. It was the US that was the driving force behind those sanctions.
No, the member nations who voted for sanctions are collectively responsible for that action.

True, but France and Russia have pushed for a loosening of sanctions for years now. I suspect that in the interest of showing unity the sanctions have remained.
 

milagro

Golden Member
Jun 19, 2001
1,459
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Originally posted by: Morph
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY


:p ignorant....Hmmmm....

Seeing as your sig is:
"2000 Presidential Election Results

Gore: 50,999,897 votes
Bush: 50,456,002 votes "
rolleye.gif


Here is the real result of the election ;)

2000 Election Electoral Results
Gore's Total: 266
Bush's Total: 271

Hmmmm....

Oh and the article...
Well GagHalfrunt's rather blunt words will be dittoed by me :D

CkG

Call me wacky but I believe strongly that, in a democracy, every citizen's vote should count, and count equally. Unfortunately we have this idiotic convention known as the Electoral College which servers to subvert the democratic will of the people. One day this will be changed. I just want to make sure everyone knows what the REAL vote tally was in 2000. Funny how defensive Bush-supporters get about my sig. ;)


Course you realize, we'd still be at war had Gore become president...
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: JellyBaby
That is nothing but semantics. It was the US that was the driving force behind those sanctions.
No, the member nations who voted for sanctions are collectively responsible for that action.

True, but France and Russia have pushed for a loosening of sanctions for years now. I suspect that in the interest of showing unity the sanctions have remained.

Would you like to speculate on why France and Russia wanted the sanctions lifted?

 

Jimbo

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,641
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Originally posted by: Morph
Originally posted by: Jimbo
Chomsky is an ass nugget.

Most people see his trash for what it is right about the time they graduate from school.

What a brilliant argument. You just refuted all his points by calling him an "ass nugget". Absolutely brilliant! Well done, ol' chap.

When you finally can tell the difference between and argument and an observation, ring me up, ass-hat. :cool:

The volumes of material refuting Chomsky's writings are legion. Why re-invent the wheel when you would never listen anyway?

Chomsky is obviously a fraud when he rants against Capitalism yet lives in an opulent life style that is well above his needs.

 

AAman

Golden Member
May 29, 2001
1,432
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Chomsky has never said anything remotely related to logic, nothing he says is 'news'- the only
news is that someone is so uninformed as to think there is substance there (think of those monkeys
and typewriters recreating Shakespeare, no creative input in his hash)

btw the way the Friedman op-ed was really good, too bad it wasn't any longer
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
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Originally posted by: Corn
Besides the United states popluation, the rest of the world (even "coalition" members spain and England) are very much against this war. I'd say he was very accurate.

Yes, yes, and of course the rest of the world embraced Germany and Japan's invasions.......
rolleye.gif


I'd say he is a tool.

They embraced them as much as they are embracing our invasion. which is to say, they didn't. don't forget who is the aggressor in this situation.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,914
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My my, this guy Chomsly certainly turns out the Bush lickers in force. The fact that he is a worthless asshat tells me he must cut very close to the bone. I see not much attention was paid to refutation of content.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
My my, this guy Chomsly certainly turns out the Bush lickers in force. The fact that he is a worthless asshat tells me he must cut very close to the bone. I see not much attention was paid to refutation of content.

Hehe, I suspect that the Refuters(noted by Jimbo) of Chomsky are similarily endowed. ;) So far, anytime Chomsky gets mentioned on ATOT nothing of substance is ever presented refuting him, other than Capitalist loving Commie Bastard Idiot. :D
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,858
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Originally posted by: Jimbo
Hey I get a two-for, moontool and his fluff boy!

The Sick Mind of Noam Chomsky

The Sick Mind of Noam Chomsky: Part II


And when you two troglodytes finish this reading assignment, I have much, much more. :cool:

Link 1 is flamebait. Horowitz calls Chomsky names, takes a few quotes out of context, compares him to a cult leader, Anti-American, yadda yadda ya. See my above post, nothing of substance is offered to refute Chomsky's arguement other than he is the devil incarnate and even that isn't proven with anything other than a rant.

Link 2, well this one starts to make a good arguement. I can't say whether this article is correct or not for I haven't read much Chomsky. The thing that bothers me with this article though, is that it calls Chomsky a Communist as if it were true(ie- not as a cheapshot). From what I've read of Chomsky he seems more similar to a Libertarian than a Communist, could be wrong though(been a few years).


Have you read any Chomsky yourself?