America's most expensive weapons clusterf***: The Lockheed F-35 Lightning II

[tynopik]

Some of them find their own target. We've had acoustic torpedoes that find their own target since WW2. Just hope that only enemies are in area where you use them.

Again, no. The torpedo is fired at a specific target and the acoustic homing is used for terminal guidance. You know where the torpedo is going and you have a fair degree of confidence in what exact target it's going to hit. YOU chose the target, the homing is just to make sure it hits it.

If you had a theoretical torpedo with a 500nm cruise range, you don't just turn it loose in the middle of the ocean and see what it finds.

 

[Agent11]

Money waster. Lockheed should be taken over by the government, liquidated, executives should be thrown to jail, and the money should be given back to the people.

That is a bit harsh, they have contributed greatly to our national defense.

I think they need a grizzled curmudgeon of an aerospace engineer to oversee these projects and make sure things stay within reasonable scope and budgetary guidelines.

 

[Perknose]

n/m

 

[EagleKeeper]

Lots of pro military jet people in this town. As it says in the bumper sticker around here "Jet Noise - The Sound of Freedom." Not that I'm proud to see that slogan.

That slogan was on bumper stickers in the late 70s/80s

I used to work on Miramar Rd right across from the Marine Corp Air Station (formerly Top Gun), I worked there for almost a year and honestly, the sound of jets taking off gets real tiring, real fast. I can't imagine living anywhere near there because the sound is deafening.

For many in military aviation, it becomes white noise unless within a mile under departure patterns.

I usually get shivers when I sense an approach departure of any fighter.

Hanscom/Robins/Pax River/Andrews/Miramar/Homestead/Nellis/Buckley

 

[alkemyst]

Satellites are easy to fuck. Unless they develop a better method a lot of this stuff is only good until the shit really hits the fan.

 

[kyrax12]

Does the U.S really need these expensive ass weaponry when the nation itself is suffering economically?

I just can't feel any good things about these advanced aircrafts when the money that is allocated to these projects can go to other things.

 

[Train]

yup

modern MANPADs are becoming too good



What works currently in Afghanistan is not a good reference for what will work against a better equipped opponent.

Better equipped how? Tanks? A-10's were built to kill tanks.

The A-10 or something of the same role, will be useful well into the future.

 

[BladeVenom]

Again, no. The torpedo is fired at a specific target and the acoustic homing is used for terminal guidance. You know where the torpedo is going and you have a fair degree of confidence in what exact target it's going to hit. YOU chose the target, the homing is just to make sure it hits it.

You don't have to have a specific target locked on to fire an acoustic torpedo. This is WW2 technology. It could do a search and locate a target on its own. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_24_mine Torpedoes could even be deployed as part of a mine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_60_CAPTOR Once again it selects it's own target no human is needed, it autonomous.

 

[tynopik]

Better equipped how?

MANPADs

Tanks? A-10's were built to kill tanks.

The A-10 or something of the same role, will be useful well into the future.

Against a force with modern weapons? Not really. Way too vulnerable.

 

[tynopik]

You don't have to have a specific target locked on to fire an acoustic torpedo. This is WW2 technology. It could do a search and locate a target on its own.

Again, that comes into play after you launch it at the target that you select.

No one just launches torpedoes at random to see what happens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_60_CAPTOR Once again it selects it's own target no human is needed, it autonomous.

This is the closest you've come, but it's still a stationary mine. The only real difference from a regular contact or magnetic mine is that its zone of 'contact' is slightly larger.

(It also helps that it's easy to distinguish submarines from surface ships and there are (practically) no civilian submarines, unlike jets where civilian jets far far outnumber military jets)

 

[Train]

MANPADs


Against a force with modern weapons? Not really. Way too vulnerable.

You probably think the era of the foot soldier is over too, right?

The A-10 was developed during the cold war. It had a very well equipped opponent in mind. If you think it's vulnerable you probably go need to read up on how tough it is. Then realize they aren't going to send it in by itself.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

You probably think the era of the foot soldier is over too, right?

The A-10 was developed during the cold war. It had a very well equipped opponent in mind. If you think it's vulnerable you probably go need to read up on how tough it is. Then realize they aren't going to send it in by itself.

please, stop overstating the a-10's toughness. it's not invulnerable. the entire airframe is like a neon sign to a SAM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_shootdowns_and_accidents_during_the_Iraq_War

an a-10 is 1 of only 2 shot down by enemy fire

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=82782

OA-10A 77-0197
Crashed on landing. 23rd TASS/602nd TACW. Aircraft had been hit by small arms and was attempting a landing at KKMC FOL while in Manual Reversion after loosing all its hydraulics and in extreme weather conditions. On landing the aircraft cat wheeled wingtip over wingtip flipped over on to its back killing the pilot Lt Patrick Olson. There was nothing left of the aircraft. The remains of the aircraft were buried at the FOL.

small arms is exactly what the a-10 is supposed to be immune to, right?

 

[Merad]

Again, no. The torpedo is fired at a specific target and the acoustic homing is used for terminal guidance. You know where the torpedo is going and you have a fair degree of confidence in what exact target it's going to hit. YOU chose the target, the homing is just to make sure it hits it.

A torpedo or ARH missile is perfectly capable of going autonomous at any time - it will simply engage the first target detected by its sensor. It isn't something you usually want to do, but there are situations where it's warranted.

 

[NoCreativity]

Another huge problem that you run into is change. I swear... government people can change their minds at the drop of a hat, and it can be a huge problem. Some minor changes aren't really a big deal, but when you're doing things that add weight to aircraft or try to increase performance specifications, you can cause serious cost increases. Most of the defense contractors have a very strict, "the customer is always right!" policy, so if the customer wants it and is willing to pay for it, everything's fun. Although, keep in mind... the customer is the Department of Defense, but they're like a teenager with their daddy's pocketbook. Congress (daddy) doesn't much like you running amok with their money. That's why I brought up Nunn-McCurdy earlier as it directly relates to congressional oversight over ballooning budgets in military programs.

In my experience changes happen, in no small part, because of the continual change in leadership. Program managers are in place for 2-3 years. They are looking for promotion. Despite what the DoD preaches, continuing a project to meet deadlines and budget is not promotion worthy. The only thing DoD sees as promotion worthy is if you put your mark on it, which means making a change to the program. In addition, PMs may have a different view of what the vehicle should do. There are supposed to be methods to prevent unneeded changes from being made but they basically just reverse engineer requirements to show why the change is needed.

F35 is no different. It's even worse since there are so many parties involved.

 

[OverVolt]

please, stop overstating the a-10's toughness. it's not invulnerable. the entire airframe is like a neon sign to a SAM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_shootdowns_and_accidents_during_the_Iraq_War

an a-10 is 1 of only 2 shot down by enemy fire

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=82782



small arms is exactly what the a-10 is supposed to be immune to, right?

I remember hearing an Abrams treads had broken down and some of Hussein's guys snuck up and slammed it with RPGs while it was a sitting duck. Guess we should scrap the Abrams as well?

Yes we smashed them in Iraq, and yes, by sheer luck they managed to take out some of our guys. Its a bit of a freak accident that small arms made it lose all hydraulics combined with bad weather. He had actually made it back to base which is what the A-10 is famous for, but crashed landed in bad weather.

 

[preslove]

please, stop overstating the a-10's toughness. it's not invulnerable. the entire airframe is like a neon sign to a SAM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aviation_shootdowns_and_accidents_during_the_Iraq_War

an a-10 is 1 of only 2 shot down by enemy fire

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=82782



small arms is exactly what the a-10 is supposed to be immune to, right?

The a-10 is more comparable to an Apache helicopter, in terms of roles. Far more than 1 Apaches were taken down by small arms fire...

 

[Markbnj]

small arms is exactly what the a-10 is supposed to be immune to, right?

I don't think any aircraft is immune from any weapon that can project force into the air. As far as I know the A-10 has a markedly durable airframe, and a nice Ti tub around the pilot, which I'm sure is helpful when being shot at with small arms from below.

It sounds like the pilot in that report was unlucky, and a round hit the hydraulics. Given the report about the weather conditions and complete loss of hydraulic controls it's curious that he didn't just get out. Maybe he couldn't for some reason, or was trying to save the plane. Fighter pilots have a thing about that.

 

[xSauronx]

The Osprey and the sensor fuzed weapon clusterbomb were both featured on Future Weapons.

The Osprey's propellers are oriented horizontally during flight and rotate vertically during landing. The bomb travels horizontally during flight, but orients to a vertical position prior to deployment.

Both were used in Iraq.

i would like to point out, for anyone who hasnt been around one....ospreys are about as obnoxious as it gets. they do touch and go landing practice where i live in those things, the whole town shakes. i would happily see them all grounded just to save me immense aggravation.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I don't think any aircraft is immune from any weapon that can project force into the air. As far as I know the A-10 has a markedly durable airframe, and a nice Ti tub around the pilot, which I'm sure is helpful when being shot at with small arms from below.

It sounds like the pilot in that report was unlucky, and a round hit the hydraulics. Given the report about the weather conditions and complete loss of hydraulic controls it's curious that he didn't just get out. Maybe he couldn't for some reason, or was trying to save the plane. Fighter pilots have a thing about that.

No pilot wants to leave an airframe that is felt to still be flyable.:\

 

[preslove]

The air force should just give all their A-10s to the Army. The air force always considers close air support the red headed step child, and the A-10 has the same role as the Apache, which is flown by the army. I don't understand why the army has to be limited to rotary aircraft.

 

[tynopik]

a nice Ti tub around the pilot, which I'm sure is helpful when being shot at with small arms from below.

You know what's even more helpful at protecting the pilot from small arms fire?

Flying the drone from Nellis

 

[tynopik]

I remember hearing an Abrams treads had broken down and some of Hussein's guys snuck up and slammed it with RPGs while it was a sitting duck. Guess we should scrap the Abrams as well?

Just because everything has vulnerabilities doesn't mean everything is equally vulnerable.

Would you rather face RPGs in an Abrams or a Suburban? They're both vulnerable to RPGs so there's no real difference . . .

 

[The Boston Dangler]

The air force should just give all their A-10s to the Army. The air force always considers close air support the red headed step child, and the A-10 has the same role as the Apache, which is flown by the army. I don't understand why the army has to be limited to rotary aircraft.

after ww2, the navy protested at the army's massive power and budget (which included 100% of our nuclear weapons), so congress divorced the us army air force and it's fixed wing aircraft from the department of the army.

 

[BladeVenom]

In today's news, turning old planes into drones. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24231077

 

[PottedMeat]

In today's news, turning old planes into drones. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24231077

just get rid of the operators and put in some AI

In three years, Cyberdyne will become the largest supplier of military computer systems. All stealth bombers are upgraded with Cyberdyne computers, becoming fully unmanned. Afterwards, they fly with a perfect operational record. The Skynet Funding Bill is passed. The system goes online on August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware 2:14 AM, Eastern time, August 29th.