American Idol

[torpid]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
I can't believe anyone would want to support American Idol. It's SHEER PROOF that most pop-stars are invented by marketing and hype AND NOT TALENT. Would you want that?

The above uses even less sound logic than most of what you have said before. How is it sheer proof that pop starts are invented by marketting and hype when the winners are chosen by the audience, and not by advertising agencies or record labels? It makes no sense to say that. American Idol is the opposite. An american idol has won a singing competion judged by millions of fans. Generally speaking, their singing talents have made them american idols. Whether or not they would have succeeded on their own is irrelevant, because they got on american idol and had success that way. Maybe the good singers would have eventually found success, so what?

Is your argument that the instant any singer has any talent, whether or not it is honed and trained, they are instantly successful and thus by the time american idol auditions come to town, they are already touring and making millions?

Or will you admit that there may be some untapped amazing singers out there who use american idol as a way to hone their talents and jump start their careers? If you will agree to that, then don't you think it is likely that those people would beat out the less talented singers, thereby making american idol winnters (drum roll) talented?

 

[iamme]

just because they get publicity and a shot at making a record, doesn't mean they are talented or even that America wants to hear him/her.

case in point = Paris Hilton made an album.

If these American Idol contestants weren't getting any publicity, it's because they weren't talented enough to begin with.

you're telling me that that Chicken Little kid who was in the last American Idol was better than everyone he beat out to get that far? or that he's what American music listeners wanted to hear?

 

[Muadib]

Originally posted by: purbeast0
i agree with the girl, and disagree with you.

 

[BlancoNino]

*SIGH*

Don't argue with teeny-boppers.

Lesson learned.

 

[sygyzy]

Believe him guys, BlancoNino knows what he's talking about. "It takes ALOT to make it big"

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: iamme
just because they get publicity and a shot at making a record, doesn't mean they are talented or even that America wants to hear him/her.

case in point = Paris Hilton made an album.

If these American Idol contestants weren't getting any publicity, it's because they weren't talented enough to begin with.

you're telling me that that Chicken Little kid who was in the last American Idol was better than everyone he beat out to get that far? or that he's what American music listeners wanted to hear?

? That's my point? My point is that these guys aren't good enough to make it on their own talents, therefore they need hype and publicity. PARIS HILTON HAS HYPE AND PUBLICITY, SHE NEVER COULD HAVE MADE IT ON HER OWN! The exact same is true for American Idol winners...they couldn't make it on their own, so they need hype and publicity. Why is this a good thing? Why do we need more of these types of marketed celebrities? It's because dumbasses tune into these shows and buy their albums.

 

[Pacfanweb]

OP's point is wrong. How many thousands of great talents never got noticed, then gave up and got real jobs?

If you are good, that does not always or even often translate into commercial success.

I'd say that Carrie Underwood would have eventually made it without Idol.

You are right in that Paris Hilton could never have made it on her own....but again, she got a break by already being famous.

Kelly Clarkson might have made it on her on if she didn't get on Idol.
She is also legitimately good.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
OP's point is wrong. How many thousands of great talents never got noticed, then gave up and got real jobs?

If you are good, that does not always or even often translate into commercial success.

I'd say that Carrie Underwood would have eventually made it without Idol.

You are right in that Paris Hilton could never have made it on her own....but again, she got a break by already being famous.

Kelly Clarkson might have made it on her on if she didn't get on Idol.
She is also legitimately good.

So what if people choose to stop trying? The only time great talents go without notice are on movies.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
? That's my point? My point is that these guys aren't good enough to make it on their own talents, therefore they need hype and publicity.

Do you even know what you posted in your first post. Since you forgot, let me copy it:

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Argument I had with this girl at work...

Her argument is that a lot of talented people don't get noticed.

So she says a lot of talented people don't get noticed. And you are arguing with her. Thus, your point is that ALL talented people get noticed. This is demonstrably false.

Yes, you made a few other points (and your other points are correct). However, everyone is against you on the point I quoted here. You are just 100% wrong on that point. Yes, American idol is about money, yes it is about pop music, yes it takes people with less talent popular. We all agree with you there. But we all DISAGREE with your point in your thread topic summary. Why can't you see that? What can we do to make it any more clear?

Subject changed in an attempt to eliminate frustration:
[*]BlancoNino: The sun is green and the year is 2006.
[*]ATOT: The sun is yellowish.
[*]BlancoNino: The year is 2006.
[*]ATOT: We agree that the year is 2006, it is one year past 2005, but the sun isn't green.
[*]BlancoNino: That proves my point! It is one year past 2005.
[*]ATOT: The sun isn't green.
[*]BlancoNino: Thanks for backing me up, that is exactly my point, the year is 2006.

Do you see why we have a problem with you? Do you see how you make one point and then change your focus and argue something different? That is very frustrating. You've done it over and over again in many threads. Please, for everyone's sanity either (A) make just one point in a thread or (B) be willing to listen to discussions on all points that you bring up.

You are completely wrong if you argue against her point that "a lot of talented people don't get noticed".

 

[AnonymouseUser]

American Idol is rigged. If there wasn't a single contestant worth a damn there would still be a winner.

I just wish I had a show that didn't have to pay 99% of the actors/actresses and could make millions exploiting 100% of them.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
OP's point is wrong. How many thousands of great talents never got noticed, then gave up and got real jobs?

If you are good, that does not always or even often translate into commercial success.

I'd say that Carrie Underwood would have eventually made it without Idol.

You are right in that Paris Hilton could never have made it on her own....but again, she got a break by already being famous.

Kelly Clarkson might have made it on her on if she didn't get on Idol.
She is also legitimately good.

So what if people choose to stop trying? The only time great talents go without notice are on movies.

You are simply wrong. Plenty of great musical talents have never gotten big or particularly famous.
That's what everyone has been telling you.
/thread.

 

[rbV5]

Sounds like Simon sent you home because your singing reminded him of his dog crapping out "three blind mice"........at least you had your shot

 

[Aquila76]

The one thing that bothers me about American Idol (and why I don't watch it) is that nobody does anything after winning it (except for Kelly Clarkson - she's the exception that proves the rule). Where is Rueben? Fantasia? Hicks? That's right, back in relative obscurity where they were before American Idol.

 

[mpitts]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: dullard
Once again I have to disagree with BlancoNino. Talent will get you nowhere in entertainment. Publicity is what you need to succeed.

Many of the people who are famous have little to no talent (Paris Hilton anyone?). Yet, they'll get TV shows, they'll get movies, they'll get top 20 songs, etc. A recording studio can make ANYONE sound gifted. Talent is not needed. Publicity is all you need to succeed.

Thank you for proving my point. These folks are NOT talented enough to make it on their own, thus the publicity from American Idol. That's why I hate the show.

One person barely/somewhat agrees with you and all of the sudden you are validated and correct?

 

[Sqube]

Talent is not the only thing that will lead to success. You absolutely must be noticed. All the people noticed aren't talented, and all the talented people aren't noticed. It's great to have talent, but Ashlee Simpson and Paris Hilton have clearly demonstrated that talent is not a prerequisite to success.

However, I think that you're saying that talent will get you discovered. That's the most naive thing I've seen today. These people have to be discovered, one way or another; American Idol appears to be one of those vehicles.

 

[ScottFern]

American Idol is nothing more than a karaoke show.

 

[BlancoNino]

To Dullard -

A) Tired and slightly intoxicated to try and stay on topic.

B) I didn't do a good job of my original post of explaining.

C) I've forgotten some of my points because I think too fast.

D) I'm sorry.

Basically, I left out something in the OP. The girl at work said that a lot of them don't get noticed. This is true, but it's mainly because they don't try very hard or are too caught up in different things. If you have the time to be a contestant on American Idol, you have the time to try and make a name for yourself and get noticed.

I believe that anyone who is very talented and actually tries to perform for as many people as often as that person can (which, believe me, it is not hard that hard to get gigs) will get noticed. That person will undoubtedly be offered to go on tour and be given a recording deal (even if it's with a unknown crappy label). This has happened to 100% of the musicians I personally know of in my small town. The problem is (as is with 99.999%) of other bands, is that they haven't made the step up to impress people on the next level...which is where fame and fortune start to come in. American Idol selects that winner and then just hands out a big record deal, recording contract, professional musicians, etc. To me, that is less honorable, and that's why I dislike the show.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Talented singers are a dime a dozen. A popular show that makes a big deal over a few of them will undoubtedly kick-start their careers. No artist that made it big from that show was original or even good.

Being able to sing and even stage presence is not enough to be a decent artist IMO. You need to be able to write good music instead of regurgitating the work of others.

If you perform an album as well as the writer envisioned it their name should still come before yours in the credits.

 

[ColdFusion718]

Your first mistake was trying to have a logical discussion with a woman. /thread.

 

[Brackis]

American Idol just helps America stick with shallow popularity driven music. Take finalist Ayla Brown for example. I went to highschool with her, and she wasn't even the best singer in our highschool, yet she now has a record contract she just signed and an album coming out in September.
Sure she has talent, but other people have talent too but don't subject themselves to the moronic American Idol audience.

 

[imported_michaelpatrick33]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
To Dullard -

A) Tired and slightly intoxicated to try and stay on topic.

B) I didn't do a good job of my original post of explaining.

C) I've forgotten some of my points because I think too fast.

D) I'm sorry.

Basically, I left out something in the OP. The girl at work said that a lot of them don't get noticed. This is true, but it's mainly because they don't try very hard or are too caught up in different things. If you have the time to be a contestant on American Idol, you have the time to try and make a name for yourself and get noticed.

I believe that anyone who is very talented and actually tries to perform for as many people as often as that person can (which, believe me, it is not hard that hard to get gigs) will get noticed. That person will undoubtedly be offered to go on tour and be given a recording deal (even if it's with a unknown crappy label). This has happened to 100% of the musicians I personally know of in my small town. The problem is (as is with 99.999%) of other bands, is that they haven't made the step up to impress people on the next level...which is where fame and fortune start to come in. American Idol selects that winner and then just hands out a big record deal, recording contract, professional musicians, etc. To me, that is less honorable, and that's why I dislike the show.

Honrorable? Are you kidding? Do you think Kelly Clarkson give a rat's *ss about honorable? That show launched her career and she has demonstrated staying power (granted the ones since have not really). American Idol (no matter what you think of it) helped individuals spark a career period. It is a marketing tool on both sides, contestant and show.

You are making the logical mistake of extrapolating personal experience into broader social dynamics. Statistically speaking your argument falls flat on its face. There are ten's of thousands (or even more) of talented musicians who don't "make it" no matter their perseverence. Since they haven't made it you haven't heard of them hence you believe anyone with talent can make it. Logical fallacy. You cannot take your personal observation and extrapolate it. You are simply wrong.

Edit: I have a friend who has really tried to launch her singing career (and she can sing) but hasn't made it yet and she is passed thirty. She is beginning to look at other options (and she has a college degree) so I could easily state based on personal experience that it takes pure luck of the draw (and willingness of big time music sponsor) to make it and that independent singers are frozen out no matter their talent. (This would be an example of a logical fallacy on my part). She just hasn't had the right "break" or whatever Genie in a bottle magic that needs to occur for her success. Will she ever? I certainly hope so.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
Basically, I left out something in the OP. The girl at work said that a lot of them don't get noticed. This is true, but it's mainly because they don't try very hard or are too caught up in different things. If you have the time to be a contestant on American Idol, you have the time to try and make a name for yourself and get noticed.

I believe that anyone who is very talented and actually tries to perform for as many people as often as that person can (which, believe me, it is not hard that hard to get gigs) will get noticed. That person will undoubtedly be offered to go on tour and be given a recording deal (even if it's with a unknown crappy label). This has happened to 100% of the musicians I personally know of in my small town. The problem is (as is with 99.999%) of other bands, is that they haven't made the step up to impress people on the next level...which is where fame and fortune start to come in. American Idol selects that winner and then just hands out a big record deal, recording contract, professional musicians, etc. To me, that is less honorable, and that's why I dislike the show.

Thank you for that post, BlancoNino. That clears a lot of things up for us. And I think you now see what we were saying, a lot of talented won't get noticed (for a variety of reasons). They may be talented but have stage fright, they may be talented but never tried hard, they may be talented but confined from performing, etc. Not all talented people make it big enough to be noticed. After that, we mostly agree with you about American Idol.

I think there is still a definition problem here though. What is the definition of "being noticed". The bolded part in your quote may help explain that. Think of those neighbors/friends/family of yours that go on tour and have a recording deal. Does that count as being noticed? In my opinion, I still say no. Being noticed is the next step that you describe. You are noticed when you imporess people on the next level and FAME kicks in. I think you define being noticed at a much earlier level (such as when they go on tour). That probably led to much of the trouble that we had in this discussion. Both definitions can be acceptable. However, we should have come to a definition agreement before debating and I think things would have been much smoother.

I personally don't really like American Idol either. It tries to force singers into molds that they don't fit. And like someone above said, if all contestants are crap, one of the crappy contestants will still win. However, I think you are taking it just a bit too far. Not all of the contestants are crap. Some are talented singers. Unfortunately that show is trying to turn talented Opera / Country / Rap / Metal / Show-tunes / etc singers into pop singers. That formula will usually fail. But is it really dishonorable to beat out thousands of other singers in a contest with two different groups of judges? I say no. I think that is something that the winners should be proud of.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: dullard
Thank you for that post, BlancoNino. That clears a lot of things up for us. And I think you now see what we were saying, a lot of talented won't get noticed (for a variety of reasons). They may be talented but have stage fright, they may be talented but never tried hard, they may be talented but confined from performing, etc. Not all talented people make it big enough to be noticed. After that, we mostly agree with you about American Idol.

I think there is still a definition problem here though. What is the definition of "being noticed". The bolded part in your quote may help explain that. Think of those neighbors/friends/family of yours that go on tour and have a recording deal. Does that count as being noticed? In my opinion, I still say no. Being noticed is the next step that you describe. You are noticed when you imporess people on the next level and FAME kicks in. I think you define being noticed at a much earlier level (such as when they go on tour). That probably led to much of the trouble that we had in this discussion. Both definitions can be acceptable. However, we should have come to a definition agreement before debating and I think things would have been much smoother.

I personally don't really like American Idol either. It tries to force singers into molds that they don't fit. And like someone above said, if all contestants are crap, one of the crappy contestants will still win. However, I think you are taking it just a bit too far. Not all of the contestants are crap. Some are talented singers. Unfortunately that show is trying to turn talented Opera / Country / Rap / Metal / Show-tunes / etc singers into pop singers. That formula will usually fail. But is it really dishonorable to beat out thousands of other singers in a contest with two different groups of judges? I say no. I think that is something that the winners should be proud of.

To me, being noticed is playing shows/performing. Somebody's talent will spread by word of mouth. There are, of course, many levels of being noticed. I'm simply saying that if somebody is talented enough, they will get noticed (by your definition) after performing for awhile (sometimes even a long time). As we both agree, American Idol tries to force singers into being something they are not. I believe musicians need to be built from the ground up. It's like a millionaire who made his money through hard work and good investment vs a millionaire who won the lottery...sort of.

Should the next American Idol be decided by the audience of a TV show or by supporting a talented musician that is out there performing and playing gigs and is really impressing the hell out of crowds?

 

[Mrfrog840]

You cant say American Idol hasnt helped people out. It HELPS you get noticed.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: Mrfrog840
You cant say American Idol hasnt helped people out. It HELPS you get noticed.

Because they let you on TV. Get noticed for your talent, not a gameshow.