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American homicide rate dwarfs Europe

Schadenfroh

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
http://www.wbur.org/npr/141156404/is-human-violence-on-the-wane

Yes, I know, old news, but I heard an excellent interview on NPR's Science Friday (a little late as I only listened to the broadcast today). A Harvard psychology professor examines the decline of violence in The West and the possible causes. The thread title is something you likely already know, but this book apparently offers a different explanation than what you might think...

Even if we tie one arm behind our backs, by removing firearm deaths from our statistics, we still come out with a higher homicide rate:
I want to ask you about something you point in your book, about homicide rates in America still being several times what they are in Europe.

PINKER: Yes.

FLATOW: I would say first it's the guns, you know, but you say it's not.

PINKER: Not directly. You subtract out all the homicides committed with firearms, and you just leave the ones committed with ropes and candlesticks and knives and so on, we still kill more people proportionally than Europeans do. So it's not just the guns and the guns might be as much of a symptom as a cause.
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It seems that we still have some of that wild-west culture still in us:
America had, for one thing, lived in anarchy for - until much more recently than Europe. We had the Wild West, where the cliche of the cowboy movies was the nearest sheriff is 90 miles away, and so you had to pack a gun and defend yourself.

There was the mountainous South, with the Hatfields and McCoys and Daniel Boone and Davey Crockett, also beyond the reach of the law. And so not only did people have to cultivate a willingness to defend themselves with violence and to defend their reputation with violence, which meant they had to respond to insults to show that they weren't wimps, that became embedded in the culture.
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He did not touch on it, but I think that racial tensions (melting pot) and the drug trade ($$$) come into play greatly as well. Maybe in a few generations (ethnic tensions decrease) and with legalization of select narcotics (ending revenue to criminal gangs), we can see a further decline in violence.
 
Schadenfroh said:
He did not touch on it, but I think that racial tensions (melting pot) and the drug trade ($$$) come into play greatly as well. Maybe in a few generations (ethnic tensions decrease) and with legalization of select narcotics (ending revenue to criminal gangs), we can see a further decline in violence.
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First of all his explanation is bullshit. Beyond racial diversity another possibility is greater wealth disparity. It's hard to believe race explains it because Europe has some big cities with as much diversity as American cities and yet it seems like you still hear about more murders in our cities. That leaves wealth disparity and less safety nets, but studies show Europeans are just as depressed and mentally ill as Americans so that too seems like a bad explanation.
 
I wonder how he did his analysis given that most European countries just make up data. See Greece's economic lies for a recent example of European "data."
 
I'd also like to point out, as I did to a friend who is from the UK and very much anti-gun ownership...that the rates of theft and more importantly, rape...are double that of the US (I think rate of rape last I looked is about 2.3 times worse in the UK than the US.)

The story ISN'T just the rate of homicide.
 
It's because most of the homicides that take place in the US are gang members killing other gang members. People don't get murdered in my neighborhood.

Also, the comment about the west being anarchy is wrong.
 
Anarchist420 said:
It's because most of the homicides that take place in the US are gang members killing other gang members. People don't get murdered in my neighborhood.

Also, the comment about the west being anarchy is wrong.
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You just pulled that out of your ass
 
RampantAndroid said:
I'd also like to point out, as I did to a friend who is from the UK and very much anti-gun ownership...that the rates of theft and more importantly, rape...are double that of the US (I think rate of rape last I looked is about 2.3 times worse in the UK than the US.)

The story ISN'T just the rate of homicide.
Click to expand...

I don't know about the UK, but rape has rapidly declined in the US over the past 15 years to where it's I think about 20% of what it was before. Some people attribute that to the availability of p0rn on the internet, strange as it may seem.
 
Something like 60% of the homicides in the US are committed by a fairly small portion of the population (10%ish) which shall not be named lest I be banned.

Just sayin' :whiste:
 
RampantAndroid said:
I'd also like to point out, as I did to a friend who is from the UK and very much anti-gun ownership...that the rates of theft and more importantly, rape...are double that of the US (I think rate of rape last I looked is about 2.3 times worse in the UK than the US.)

The story ISN'T just the rate of homicide.
Click to expand...

Ya I'd much rather be murdered than have something stolen from me.
 
The problem with comparing stats like homicide or child mortality rates, etc, with European countries is that they all have different standards of measurements. Sometimes they deliberately skew their standards to make their own rates look better. E.g. I believe in the UK they only report number of actual prosecuted murders, while the US includes all reported murders, or something to that effect.
 
woolfe9999 said:
I don't know about the UK, but rape has rapidly declined in the US over the past 15 years to where it's I think about 20% of what it was before. Some people attribute that to the availability of p0rn on the internet, strange as it may seem.
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15 years ago is about when concealed carry laws went into effect...
 
QuantumPion said:
The problem with comparing stats like homicide or child mortality rates, etc, with European countries is that they all have different standards of measurements. Sometimes they deliberately skew their standards to make their own rates look better. E.g. I believe in the UK they only report number of actual prosecuted murders, while the US includes all reported murders, or something to that effect.
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I believe you are correct, I remember reading a while back that some European countries only count homicides as recorded by the courts. We count them as recorded by law enforcement. I wasn't able to find much some maybe someone else will chime in here.

I would also point out that we have negligent homicides weighing into our stats, most other countries wouldn't classify such incidents as homicides.
 
QuantumPion said:
15 years ago is about when concealed carry laws went into effect...
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Different states have different restrictions on concealed carry, some requiring no permit at all, some have various restrictions and hence issuing fewer of them. Illinios and DC don't allow it. Some study would have to be done on a state by state basis to see if there's a correlation with rape and concealed carry. I tend to doubt it, but you never know.

I was surprised to see that in spite of recent declines, rape remains more common in the U.S. than in Europe by a good margin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
 
woolfe9999 said:
Different states have different restrictions on concealed carry, some requiring no permit at all, some have various restrictions and hence issuing fewer of them. Illinios and DC don't allow it. Some study would have to be done on a state by state basis to see if there's a correlation with rape and concealed carry. I tend to doubt it, but you never know.

I was surprised to see that in spite of recent declines, rape remains more common in the U.S. than in Europe by a good margin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics
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Rape isn't more common in the US, it's just more commonly reported.
 
schneiderguy said:
Something like 60% of the homicides in the US are committed by a fairly small portion of the population (10%ish) which shall not be named lest I be banned.
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It is clear that in a prejudicial frameset you condemn blacks and frame murder/violence upon a racial divisions.

You posted and are upon record - you are what you are.
 
QuantumPion said:
The problem with comparing stats like homicide or child mortality rates, etc, with European countries is that they all have different standards of measurements. Sometimes they deliberately skew their standards to make their own rates look better.
Click to expand...
Fabricating a position to conform to your bias does not make it so.

E.g. I believe in the UK they only report number of actual prosecuted murders, while the US includes all reported murders, or something to that effect.
Click to expand...
No.
 
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