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American gun massacre du jour, 7 dead at Virginia Walmart

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So now the issue is deaths vs convenience, with deaths taking a secondary position.

That happens all the time, you surely have to know?

Fast food, air-travel, industrial pollution, the list is endless - all of them involve an accepted level of increased mortality set against the inconvenience of eradicating them completely.
(Personally I'd give serious consideration to banning cars entirely, at least in urban areas, but I'm in a tiny minority on that)
Which do you prioritize with regard to climate change, incidentally? Deaths or convenience?
 
That happens all the time, you surely have to know?

Fast food, air-travel, industrial pollution, the list is endless - all of them involve an accepted level of increased mortality set against the inconvenience of eradicating them completely.
(Personally I'd give serious consideration to banning cars entirely, at least in urban areas, but I'm in a tiny minority on that)
Which do you prioritize with regard to climate change, incidentally? Deaths or convenience?
That's a really good question, but the answer has to be conditional on the solution. Are we talking about eliminating fossil fuels or reducing population? Either of those answers have consequences that aren't going to be popular.
 
That happens all the time, you surely have to know?

Fast food, air-travel, industrial pollution, the list is endless - all of them involve an accepted level of increased mortality set against the inconvenience of eradicating them completely.
(Personally I'd give serious consideration to banning cars entirely, at least in urban areas, but I'm in a tiny minority on that)
Which do you prioritize with regard to climate change, incidentally? Deaths or convenience?
I think in most urban cores banning private cars is probably a good idea but the US can’t even do it in Manhattan where it makes an enormous amount of sense.

I was talking to one of my analysts the other day (an older guy) and he was INCENSED by the idea of congestion pricing in Manhattan. Every time you try to implement something like that in NYC people always say ‘what about the poor?’ without noting that not only do few people in NYC own cars but those that do are relatively wealthy.

edit: so if we can’t even implement congestion pricing in one of the most densely populated places in the world I don’t have much hope for banning cars.
 
I think in most urban cores banning private cars is probably a good idea but the US can’t even do it in Manhattan where it makes an enormous amount of sense.

I was talking to one of my analysts the other day (an older guy) and he was INCENSED by the idea of congestion pricing in Manhattan. Every time you try to implement something like that in NYC people always say ‘what about the poor?’ without noting that not only do few people in NYC own cars but those that do are relatively wealthy.

edit: so if we can’t even implement congestion pricing in one of the most densely populated places in the world I don’t have much hope for banning cars.
Once again, the conversation gets diverted by whataboutism. It's a deliberate tactic. Mass shootings have nothing to do with speed limits or congestion charges. It's not an honest argument, and he knows this, but the diversion is considered a win. Lower the speed limit to 25mph, no 1mph - it's all BS.
 
Once again, the conversation gets diverted by whataboutism. It's a deliberate tactic. Mass shootings have nothing to do with speed limits or congestion charges. It's not an honest argument, and he knows this, but the diversion is considered a win. Lower the speed limit to 25mph, no 1mph - it's all BS.
Who cares. It’s an internet message board. The point is to have fun discussions.
 
Once again, the conversation gets diverted by whataboutism. It's a deliberate tactic. Mass shootings have nothing to do with speed limits or congestion charges. It's not an honest argument, and he knows this, but the diversion is considered a win. Lower the speed limit to 25mph, no 1mph - it's all BS.

Yup. Some people here, a small minority, think Greenman is a reasonable person to speak with. But he is morally bankrupt on some issues, and completely, and probably willfully, dishonest about the rest.
 
Who cares. It’s an internet message board. The point is to have fun discussions.
I suppose it's true that I rarely have the chance for a fun discussion about multiple mass murders. Obviously the answer is mandatory wheelbarrows with only one leg on the back so that people will always have to have both hands on the handles or they fall over, and legislate that everyone must have their wheelbarrows with them whenever they are out of their homes. That would cut down on fossil fuel use, and nightclubs would have far fewer people in them, what with everyone spending most of their lives in transit to and from work, schools and shops, giving shooters far less targets of people they irrationally hate in any given public place. The wheelbarrows would also give makeshift defensive positions in a crisis. Of course, if everyone was also forced to only marry blood relatives, the resultant increase in handicapped children would mean that more people would have to spend time looking after them which would also decrease the time they have for mass murdering.
Simple, fun solutions that don't require any firearm legislation, which is apparently out of the question.
 
I suppose it's true that I rarely have the chance for a fun discussion about multiple mass murders. Obviously the answer is mandatory wheelbarrows with only one leg on the back so that people will always have to have both hands on the handles or they fall over, and legislate that everyone must have their wheelbarrows with them whenever they are out of their homes. That would cut down on fossil fuel use, and nightclubs would have far fewer people in them, what with everyone spending most of their lives in transit to and from work, schools and shops, giving shooters far less targets of people they irrationally hate in any given public place. The wheelbarrows would also give makeshift defensive positions in a crisis. Of course, if everyone was also forced to only marry blood relatives, the resultant increase in handicapped children would mean that more people would have to spend time looking after them which would also decrease the time they have for mass murdering.
Simple, fun solutions that don't require any firearm legislation, which is apparently out of the question.

I agree. It's a lot of fun to talk to people who are beyond help, because they'd rather constantly hijack and divert any honest discussion about the cause of excessive killing in this country and ignore any sensible factual points otherwise and refuse to answer simple questions. Those people are a blast!
 
Once again, the conversation gets diverted by whataboutism. It's a deliberate tactic. Mass shootings have nothing to do with speed limits or congestion charges. It's not an honest argument, and he knows this, but the diversion is considered a win. Lower the speed limit to 25mph, no 1mph - it's all BS.
It's completely valid if the reason for banning guns is saving lives. The entire point of this little diversion is that cars kill far more people than guns, yet no one wants to take any action. Being killed by a gun is a horrible tragedy, getting killed by a car is a cost of doing business.
That 50k number of dead doesn't even include all of those that are maimed or crippled. Everyone that comes out of a wreak with most of the big pieces and a heart beat aren't even part of the 50k number.
 
It's completely valid if the reason for banning guns is saving lives. The entire point of this little diversion is that cars kill far more people than guns, yet no one wants to take any action. Being killed by a gun is a horrible tragedy, getting killed by a car is a cost of doing business.
That 50k number of dead doesn't even include all of those that are maimed or crippled. Everyone that comes out of a wreak with most of the big pieces and a heart beat aren't even part of the 50k number.
When we saw children’s broken bodies in car wrecks we passed laws requiring better and better car seats, safer cars with latch attach points and cracked down on drunk driving.

When classrooms full of little kids get gunned down, we mute the sounds of their screams and courts block common sense gun laws.

Why? So at best grown men can feel like Ralphie dreaming of defending his family:


v5mug.gif
 
It's completely valid if the reason for banning guns is saving lives. The entire point of this little diversion is that cars kill far more people than guns, yet no one wants to take any action. Being killed by a gun is a horrible tragedy, getting killed by a car is a cost of doing business.
That 50k number of dead doesn't even include all of those that are maimed or crippled. Everyone that comes out of a wreak with most of the big pieces and a heart beat aren't even part of the 50k number.
We've taken action for decades on cars and continue to do so. Additional mandated safety features like automatic emergency braking are on their way. But even arguing that action hasn't been taking to make cars safer and reduce deaths is really just the most pathetic form of dishonesty. NO ONE as old as you are can be that ignorant. You've talked about retirement so I'm going to assume you are right around 65. The death rate per 100,000,000 miles driven in 1957 was 5.98, the same measurement in 2020 was 1.46. Motor vehicle deaths peaked in 1972.

Now since we're already working on trying to make cars safer and reduce deaths and have make progress can we continue that work and also work on reducing the number of people killed by guns? Your whole distraction is basically a pathetic argument that we can't do two things at the same time. You may have given up old man but the rest of don't have to accept the shitty world your generation has created.
 
We've taken action for decades on cars and continue to do so. Additional mandated safety features like automatic emergency braking are on their way. But even arguing that action hasn't been taking to make cars safer and reduce deaths is really just the most pathetic form of dishonesty. NO ONE as old as you are can be that ignorant. You've talked about retirement so I'm going to assume you are right around 65. The death rate per 100,000,000 miles driven in 1957 was 5.98, the same measurement in 2020 was 1.46. Motor vehicle deaths peaked in 1972.

Now since we're already working on trying to make cars safer and reduce deaths and have make progress can we continue that work and also work on reducing the number of people killed by guns? Your whole distraction is basically a pathetic argument that we can't do two things at the same time. You may have given up old man but the rest of don't have to accept the shitty world your generation has created.

Good luck getting through to that particular moron. He doesn't have a critical thinking skill in his body when it comes to the vast majority of socio-political issues. His greatest claim to reason is that even Q is too much for him. Not a high bar.
 
When we saw children’s broken bodies in car wrecks we passed laws requiring better and better car seats, safer cars with latch attach points and cracked down on drunk driving.

When classrooms full of little kids get gunned down, we mute the sounds of their screams and courts block common sense gun laws.

Why? So at best grown men can feel like Ralphie dreaming of defending his family:


v5mug.gif
The simple reality is a child is a hell of a lot safer in a classroom than in a car.

My point here is why is one method of death acceptable and the other is a national tragedy?
 
The simple reality is a child is a hell of a lot safer in a classroom than in a car.

My point here is why is one method of death acceptable and the other is a national tragedy?
Why do you say one is acceptable? Neither is acceptable. Do you have any clue how many man hours have been spent by engineers designing safer cars, car seats, and roads or lawyers and legislators on laws to reduce car crashes? By and large the effort is working:
US_traffic_deaths_per_VMT%2C_VMT%2C_per_capita%2C_and_total_annual_deaths.png

Deaths per billion mile’s traveled and deaths per million people have been dropping for decades.

The only one that the Republican Party finds acceptable is gun violence.
1999-_Gun-related_deaths_USA.png

You may notice that total gun deaths is about equivalent to automobile deaths (and before you go on about how suicide shouldn’t count because they’ll “just find another way” I’ll point out suicide by automobile is a thing as some suicides are baked into that number).
 
I read the other day that 1 in 7 Americans was born outside the US. Also the current equivalent figure for the UK is 1 in 6 (in some parts of London it's 1 in 2). Granted, that's not considering Nth generation descendants of migrants, but it's still striking that the US is not so much a unique 'land of immigrants' as it once was.

I think there's something else that's exceptional about the US. Not sure what it is - I've read, with regard to climate change attitudes, claims that it's about being a "frontier society", where it's perceived that land and resources are limitless. Something that applies to both the US and Australia, and which was cited to explain the lack of will to address environmental issues in both countries. Not sure that explains the gun thing, though.

I think the "frontier" mindset makes much more sense in explaining the guns (or at least it used to until the gun manufacturers decided to focus on manufacturing fear and lies instead). I regularly encounter people who openly admit climate change is real, we don't have limitless resources, but they simply are not willing to compromise their current lifestyle in any way whatsoever. They also think that stuff won't be a big deal and its decades in the future, and that by the time it'll actually affect us meaningfully, we'll have some fix for it, or we'll just simply "rebuild after the storm". They have no comprehension for what climate change actually will bring, and their argument there is to scoff as though people are describing The Day After Tomorrow and not more the Dust Bowl. I also know plenty that don't care because they think a world ending asteroid or supervolcano cataclysm is drastically more likley to happen and so trying to do anything won't matter anyway.

Most of all I think it comes down to America has built up this insane willful ignorance of actual risk assessment. We declare doing anything about risk to be infringing freedom and therefore evil.
 
We've taken action for decades on cars and continue to do so. Additional mandated safety features like automatic emergency braking are on their way. But even arguing that action hasn't been taking to make cars safer and reduce deaths is really just the most pathetic form of dishonesty. NO ONE as old as you are can be that ignorant. You've talked about retirement so I'm going to assume you are right around 65. The death rate per 100,000,000 miles driven in 1957 was 5.98, the same measurement in 2020 was 1.46. Motor vehicle deaths peaked in 1972.

Now since we're already working on trying to make cars safer and reduce deaths and have make progress can we continue that work and also work on reducing the number of people killed by guns? Your whole distraction is basically a pathetic argument that we can't do two things at the same time. You may have given up old man but the rest of don't have to accept the shitty world your generation has created.

If he wants to make the comparisons to cars, its not gonna be in his favor. But I'm all for it. Stricter licensing, with regular testing, coupled with strong registration requirements as well as mandated insurance coverage. Then we can start mandating safety features, like gun safes or gun locks, etc.

The same reason that traffic fatalities are recently increasing is the same source of the gun nuttery. Its ploying to the same mentality, its why we have a billion products now suddenly being marketed as "tactical" like pens. Driving consumers to buy SUVs and pickups, with worse visibility and worse ability to stop as well as increased weight and height causing worse damage to pedestrians. Its also the same thing driving multiple other leading causes of death, such as heart disease. Its this bullshit American "freedom" mentality that is actually just toxic masculinity that's behind basically all of it. It also affects women and society at large, as we've seen especially in the 80s and then again in the 2010s.
 
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