Not a single point in your post that I don't agree with. Yes you would have assumed that they would know ambien is not a benzodiazepine, but it does share some of the same pharmacological properties that benzodiazepines do. Also both interact to sites in the GABA-BZ receptors, but ambien is more specific and chemically unrelated to benzodiazepines.
Also do you really think benzodiazepines are the best pharmacological sleep aids? I don't.
What I ponder is why not use Adderall for the pilots to stay awake. The dose is much more stable in the blood stream and doesn't have to be repeated as often as dexedrine. If they are using cylert I would hope frequent liver testing is done.
Whoops that last part was phrased that in such a way that it seems Adderall should be used as a sleep aid. Not at all.
The hangover and residual effects from Benzodiazepines may produce sleep, but it is not natural sleep.
Dude, this is like adding 2 + 2 and getting 5. I could just as easily say it's the heat in Afghanistan that's causing soldiers to murder their spouses. Wait, maybe it's those shiney black boots..
Wow, this has snow-balled.
Ok first,
You lose a lot of credibility with this statement regardless of your profession, or what you think you know. Q - Have you ever had to use Dexedrine? I'll answer no for you. If you have, you'd realize there is nothing mild about it.. 10mg time release doses are enough to but the untrained into an emotional crash. The plateau of the drug quickly sinks as you dip below baseline until you've had another downer (dissociative) to even things out. It is one of the most potent, and addictive pharms for ADD and similar related cases on the market.
You're whole post is full of falacies!
Ridalyn not working? Step up...
Aderal not working? Step up...
etc, etc,
Last on the list... DEXEDRINE. It is a last resort drug, with terrible risks. My friend will NEVER, EVER, be the same. Ever.
Note: Dexedrine is NOT mild, nor is it something to joke around with.
What point am I trying to make? Well... if this isn't just the damn DEFINITION of hypocrisy in you're gov't methods. You fight a war on drugs, and you fight a war while you're ON the drugs you're prohibiting you're entire country from.
You take the balancing dissociative's away from those pilots and they will all very quickly lose their ability to keep control of themselves, let alone their air crafts.
Sorry Millenium, but you're out of touch. Please, please find more of my anti American postings. I love my neighbors more than you will ever appreciate.
Ok first,
Millenium
You lose a lot of credibility with this statement regardless of your profession, or what you think you know. Q - Have you ever had to use Dexedrine? I'll answer no for you. If you have, you'd realize there is nothing mild about it.. 10mg time release doses are enough to but the untrained into an emotional crash. The plateau of the drug quickly sinks as you dip below baseline until you've had another downer (dissociative) to even things out. It is one of the most potent, and addictive pharms for ADD and similar related cases on the market.
You're whole post is full of falacies!
That isn't true! They are given their own amounts to take out with them, they are NOT administrated per dose/ or even PER DAY. (not that you could anyways!)
Ridalyn not working? Step up...
Aderal not working? Step up...
etc, etc,
Last on the list... DEXEDRINE. It is a last resort drug, with terrible risks. My friend will NEVER, EVER, be the same. Ever.
Note: Dexedrine is NOT mild, nor is it something to joke around with.
What point am I trying to make? Well... if this isn't just the damn DEFINITION of hypocrisy in you're gov't methods. You fight a war on drugs, and you fight a war while you're ON the drugs you're prohibiting you're entire country from.
You take the balancing dissociative's away from those pilots and they will all very quickly lose their ability to keep control of themselves, let alone their air crafts.
Sorry Millenium, but you're out of touch. Please, please find more of my anti American postings. I love my neighbors more than you will ever appreciate.
It is a scheduled, class chemcical.... but you're right.. that makes it OK.
That's neither here nor there... and you couldn't prove it anyway.
You don't have a clue. Again, you truly can't understand.
Actually I have used Adderall, Dexedrine, and Ritalin. All for treatment of ADD. I found the Dexedrine to cause the smallest amount of side effects. I guess I am stupid. You know that Adderall contains Dextroamphetamine Sulfate(Dexedrine). It is not a step up. I actually went from Dexedrine to Ritalin and then to Adderall. Now since Adderall contains anywhere from 1.25 to 7.5MG of Dextroamphetamine Sulfate I will understand if your friend was taking doses higher than this each day. To counteract that I will tell you that I took 30MG of Adderall which contains 7.5MG of Dextroamphetamine Sulfate. I took that three times a day. So I assume that your friend was taking more than 22.5MG a day of Dexedrine.
The Naval guidelines are 30MG which is well within guidelines if you consider the following: Dextroamphetamine Sulfate has been approved for up to 60MG a day for the treatment of Narcolepsy and for children age six and over up to 40MG a day. Therefore the Naval Guideline to not exceed 30MG a day is dangerous how? Add in the fact that the pilots are pre-screened and tested for sensitivity to amphetamines.
You don't have to "crash" out and then have a downer to cope. If your friend was abusing drugs then that is his problem. Considering I have abused drugs in the past I sympathize, but blaming a drug that has tremendous medical uses is foolhardy. Adderall, Ritalin and Dexedrine have high potential for abuses. Although I never abused those drugs, I did abuse highly addicted drugs. A lot has changed since then. You must have skipped when I wrote that. If you would read the PDF that Dave Sohmer posted you could understand the guidelines and balances the Navy has implemented.
Leave your emotion about your friend at the door. While I understand he may have had an abuse problem with Dextroamphetamine Sulfate, not everyone does. He also may have been sensitive to Dextroamphetamine Sulfate. Like I mentioned earlier the Navy has taken lots of precautions to weed those people out before they are given the medication.
You can debate my points or blabber on about how stupid I am and assume I have never been prescribed those drugs. Sorry you are wrong.
Phuz what do I not understand? You are saying we don't understand? Why because we are posting facts? Logic sure does burst your bubble doesn't it?
BTW, how are these illegal drugs? I can't remember the last time I was hassled for filling my Adderall prescription. These drugs are being prescribed by a doctor. How is that hypocritical?
As for anti-american posts look no further than here.
Yeah, its called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Very well documented, maybe you should read about it some time.
Well as a narcoleptic with cataplexy I have access to Dexedrine, Adderal, Ritalin, Provigil, you name it, and soon, Xyrem.
There are tens of thousands of people - adults and children - taking therapeutic doses of Ritalin, Adderal, Dexedrine, Cylert, Provigil, et. al., for narcolepsy, chronic fatigue syndrome, and ADHD, and we seem to manage quite well without taking valium or other downers to combat the rebound effects.
Maybe you or your friend were just hard core addicts who couldn't control their behavior?
... and for some reason guys don't like it when they return from a 6 month deployment and the little woman is 4 months pregnant. Go figure.
Benzos (Restoril, Xanax) and non-benzo (Ambien, Sonata) used as sleep aids typically indicate poor physician knowledge. Our ignorance of sleep is overwelming. Although I would not sign off on that Navy document as sufficient it certainly shows that significant thought has gone into the implementation of their protocol. Non-pharmacological means (sleep etiquette, sleep advancement, etc) are always effective long term in establishing and maintaining good sleep without side effects . . . unfortunately, the Navy (and most physicians) don't know how to teach it and/or lack the time.
I'm definitely not going to side with Phuz but I would not discount his friend's experience. Someone used the term therapeutic dose but a better term would be pharmacological. There are no known agents that do not have side effects at therapeutic doses. His friend lost the lottery b/c the stars were aligned to give him 1) physicians that didn't know their neuropsychopharmacology, 2) a sensitivity to the medications chosen, and/or 3) a susceptibility to abuse. I see bad drug reactions every day and the worst fiction imparted upon the public by Big Pharma and some physicians is that medicines SOLVE problems with minimal adverse events. Next time a drug commercial comes on close your eyes (ignore the pretty pictures) and just listen to them rattle off side effects.
Adderall, Dexedrine, and Ritalin have decades of research and clinical experience to support their efficacy and relative safety but they are not innocuous. The military is probably using Dexedrine b/c they don't know any better . . . as evidenced by the bibliography. The same for their choice of downers . . . Per the shortage of trained aviators I think a likely scenario is that pilots are over-extended in peacetime and combat. Pilots are using more stimulants than this document endorses and that's necessitating a sedative. I'm not implying abuse by the pilots. I'm saying these medications are being used prospectively as acute interventions (stimulant) which is not consistent with the research which has been focused on chronic management of chronic conditions. The military application of a chronic medication for acute intervals resembles street use not good medicine. There's a reason why we don't give physicians stimulants when they are on call or otherwise sleep deprived. I think combat pilots (and commercial ones) should be treated the same for their own benefit and the people their actions affect.
The lie our government tells relates to how we spend incredible resources dealing with the War on Drugs when the overall financial and human loss of life from medications is a magnitude greater but much easier to improve.
I'm definitely not going to side with Phuz but I would not discount his friend's experience. Someone used the term therapeutic dose but a better term would be pharmacological. There are no known agents that do not have side effects at therapeutic doses. His friend lost the lottery b/c the stars were aligned to give him 1) physicians that didn't know their neuropsychopharmacology, 2) a sensitivity to the medications chosen, and/or 3) a susceptibility to abuse. I see bad drug reactions every day and the worst fiction imparted upon the public by Big Pharma and some physicians is that medicines SOLVE problems with minimal adverse events. Next time a drug commercial comes on close your eyes (ignore the pretty pictures) and just listen to them rattle off side effects.
Adderall, Dexedrine, and Ritalin have decades of research and clinical experience to support their efficacy and relative safety but they are not innocuous. The military is probably using Dexedrine b/c they don't know any better . . . as evidenced by the bibliography. The same for their choice of downers . . . Per the shortage of trained aviators I think a likely scenario is that pilots are over-extended in peacetime and combat. Pilots are using more stimulants than this document endorses and that's necessitating a sedative. I'm not implying abuse by the pilots. I'm saying these medications are being used prospectively as acute interventions (stimulant) which is not consistent with the research which has been focused on chronic management of chronic conditions. The military application of a chronic medication for acute intervals resembles street use not good medicine. There's a reason why we don't give physicians stimulants when they are on call or otherwise sleep deprived. I think combat pilots (and commercial ones) should be treated the same for their own benefit and the people their actions affect.
The lie our government tells relates to how we spend incredible resources dealing with the War on Drugs when the overall financial and human loss of life from medications is a magnitude greater but much easier to improve.
Wow, what an assault! Why do you have to go and be like that?
You're a grumpy old man, aren't you?
Anyway, I'm not anti-US.. and You truly don't speak from any experience, ect.. you're just a band-wagon hopper.. I'm getting flammed for posting an article, you trigger happy goons.... You simply couldn't be more wrong in you're assumptions. You havne't brought anything insightful into this thread, amusedone.
Anti-Us? Only with regards to the fact that the USA is responsible for Canada no legalizing yet, but then of course... I "swallowed the propaganda of the war on drugs". Nice catch phrase... sigh.
With regards to my "friend", she was just a mult-problem girl who after many, many different perscriptions found her way to dexedrine, which has taken a toll on her more than anything else yet.
There is no question here, there is no dispute... Pharm-grade-speed, which this is, shouldn't be legal by any means - nobody is questioning that. But, how can they outlaw and incriminate innocent pot smokers, and then go and get their men of war all jibbed up on dexedrine?
Actually I think your so called "pharm speed" should be legal. I think everyone is this thread was questioning you on that.
BTW, newsflash. Marijuana is illegal, Dexedrine isn't. Sorry.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
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You are not making your case any more persuasive. Let me put it to you this way: cocaine, morphine, dilaudid, amphetamines, Valium, Percocet, Oxycontin, and many other drugs have great abuse potential, but are legal when prescribed and medically indicated for certain uses. The fact that they are illegally used recreationally does not vitiate the fact that they have legitimate uses.
The American pilots who are given dexedrine are not using it recreationally; they are using it as a means to allow them to fulfill missions that are critical to national security. They are not "jibbed up," in your words - they are using the drug as a necessary tool to get the mission done.
Pilots have been taking medical grade speed for a LONG time. Welcome to yesterday. They take it for long ocean crossing and other LD distance flights.
Ah, so this is really about "Why can the military guys get high legally and I can't?"
I have a similar complaint, in that the military gets to play with all of this neat weaponry that I can't own legally. I would like to play around with explosive thingies and I've been dying to squeeze a few hundred depleted Uranium rounds into an old truck or something. That would be cool!
But alas, the military guys get to have all the fun...
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
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No need for a band wagon, Phuz. I've read your posts.
All speed should be illegal? That's a larf, because it is legal by prescription and can be very beneficial. There are beneficial and safe uses for nearly every drug, Phuz. The only band wagon hopping here is your "drugs are always bad, mmmakay" BS.
Meanwhile, please produce one valid, unbiased study that shows infrequent, medically supervised and prescribed low dosage used of dexedrine is dangerous, or clouds judgement. Just one.
I don't have a problem with this, but only if we issue glowsticks to be used in conjunction with it.
OMG bdog231, somehow your ebay ratings poped up, and why are you buying so much Pr0n and Penis Enlargement Manual's?
Again, Amusedone, you simply aren't in touch here. Many times, and many posts, i've ranted about the current status of drugs in North America, and they do NOT chime into the tune of "drugs are always bad, mmmakay".
Again, I never even remotely indicated that all speed should be legal. You're usually much better in your debates, but you obviously aren't reading my posts as much as you say you are. You still haven't added anything worth reading into this thread.. you just like to harass me!
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: lizium
OMG bdog231, somehow your ebay ratings poped up, and why are you buying so much Pr0n and Penis Enlargement Manual's?
D'oh! You'd think the seller of a penis enlargement manual would make the auction number private while giving ratings.
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