America

[JulesMaximus]

Eli-Even though the people of Iraq will most likely end up better off, it is not fair for us to play World God. Like I said, if this is our new foreign policy, we better get busy, because there sure are a lot of other rogue countries that could use our "help".

Why is it not fair for us to play "World God" as you put it? That is a pretty naive view.

Sure there are other threats in the world and I say we should deal with them as well. Maybe not militarily but we should definitely deal with them. Whether we invade another country with tanks and planes or start a coup to overthrow those in power it's just a means to an end. We are not unjustified in protecting our best interests and the interests of most of the rest of the world.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: DougK62

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Whatever reason Bush gives for entering this war, it had to be done. Iraq was a haven for terrorists, Saddam supported terrorism, and he terrorized his own people. I like to think of this war as an extension of the war against terrorism. If our troops weren't being shot at in Iraq, they'd be getting shot at in other countries. Do you honestly think Saddam would just sit there and watch us sweep through Afghanistan? Hell no... he might not send his military out, but you can be damn sure he'd provide what he could to the terrorists we're fighting against.

everything i've seen indicates that he did not support al qaeda and they were enemies. just about every nation supports terrorism in one form or another, but i don't think his support for terrorism was a threat to anyone other than iraq's neighbors and his political enemies.

You haven't been paying attention too closely if you haven't heard of Iraq-Al Qaeda ties. Here's from Google:



Google Results



Even Clinton has acknowledged that he knew about the Iraq-Al Qaeda ties when he was in office.

ok, i've *heard of* those ties, what i meant to say is that i've not seen any convincing evidence that those ties exist, whereas pentagon officials and experts in middle eastern studies have come out to say that no such link exists (and that bush was informed of this)

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: beer
I wouldn't fight because this is a war that we shouldn't be in. It is an exercise in imperialism and, as Fausto said, a pissing contest. I would feel differently if we had been attacked by Iraq (or any other sovreign nation) or if any of our allies were under siege. But this is not the case. The pentagon invaded a sovreign nation without just cause, and they had better solve their mistakes without bringing mandatory military service as an option. I would burn a drat notice over serving.

We liberated that country and handed the sovereignty back to the people where it belongs.

 

[Modeps]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Lighten up Francis. I'm sure most of us were kidding around. I know I was.

I'm actually too old now to serve but this was brought up during the first Gulf War in 1991 and I was definitely young enough to serve then. I would have gone if I was drafted but I wasn't and I'm too old now anyway.

I've never served my country but I have the deepest respect and gratitude towards those who do.

My .02

You know, you're second person to call me francis in the past 2 weeks... and I dont know why!

Anyways, for all you blokes that say there's no WMD in Iraq, it's a very good possibility he burried them, although my scepticism is growing. I mean heck, they were burrying J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS!

and I agree, brazil should be next, those monkeys are dangerous

 

[Fausto]

Originally posted by: tec699

Originally posted by: Fausto
Draft = go to war, get shot at. Why should I unwillingly fight in a war I believe is unjust? I'm not going to go get my ass shot off in Fallujah just to win a GWB pissing contest, sorry.

Then leave this country.

How about you just go f*ck yourself? I at least work for the gov which is more than most of the retards in this thread can say. Wanna know who got sent to ground zero at the WTC to deal with all the health issues? We did. WTF did you do? People like you who just come back with "Then leave!" whenever someone's critical of the government have no idea how stupid you sound. One of the cornerstones of the US is our right to be critical of our elected officials to effect change and all you can say in response to this is "Leave". Imbecile. :roll:


Furthermore, if people like me "leave" the US will end up becoming a theocracy/military dictatorship. That'd be great, huh? Government requires balance which is why I don't tell reactionary morons like yourself to "leave" because I don't want just left-leaning people running the show either.

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
We liberated that country and handed the sovereignty back to the people where it belongs.

That second part is still a work in progress, though.

 

[Modeps]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
We liberated that country and handed the sovereignty back to the people where it belongs.

Well actually that wasnt our aim. So thats what makes me angry at Bush. He lied for the reason for doing what we did.

He said we were looking for WMD, great. I'm all for it if he found them, and I still have a bit of hope, however as we know, there has yet to be any revealed.

Hell, I would have been for it if he said "we're gonna help out iraq and kick that @$$hole Saddam out!" but he didnt.

I dont necessarily agree with the politics, but I stand true to what I said in my opening post.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Eli-Even though the people of Iraq will most likely end up better off, it is not fair for us to play World God. Like I said, if this is our new foreign policy, we better get busy, because there sure are a lot of other rogue countries that could use our "help".

Why is it not fair for us to play "World God" as you put it? That is a pretty naive view.



Sure there are other threats in the world and I say we should deal with them as well. Maybe not militarily but we should definitely deal with them. Whether we invade another country with tanks and planes or start a coup to overthrow those in power it's just a means to an end. We are not unjustified in protecting our best interests and the interests of most of the rest of the world.

It is not a naive view at all. Infact, I'd say the mere idea that we can police the world and make them live out our vision of life is far more naive.

It is not our place. How would we like it if Russia or China said that we must convert to Communism, or face destruction? It's the same thing.

 

[dfi]

I am grateful there are people who voluntarily join the military. They are needed to protect the country from possible future threats. But I personally don't want to join the military. Anyone who is not currently in the military is enjoying the same freedom I am enjoying, this freedom that I am very thankful for.

Frankly, I value my life very much. I would also prefer not to take away another man's life. Thus, the only time I would be willing to risk my own life to take another man's life is to protect those that I love from a direct and imminent threat. That means I would not voluntarily go to Iraq to help free the Iraqi people. I value my life more than their freedom.

However, if there was a draft and it looked likely that I would become drafted, then I would volunteer and get as much training as I possibly could. I would rather kill than be killed. Thus, I would work hard to make sure I am the most effective and efficient cold-blooded killer on the battlefield, in order to lower my chances of dying.

Btw, it really does annoy me when someone says "leave the country if you disagree with me." That undermines the freedom that others have fought and died for, and show very little respect for the concept of democracy.

dfi

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: CorporateRecreation
Why should I fight in a war that I don't believe in for a country I don't believe in?

What? Do you think the United States is a conspiracy of the cartographers?

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: Modeps
Spawned from "A Few Draft Related Questions..."

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with many of you? It seems like the general concensus is that a Draft was instituted, most of you would dodge it or look for a backdoor to get out. You live in this country and enjoy the freedom it provides. If there is a draft, suck it up, be a man (or woman) and serve your time for this nation.

This nation has turned into a bunch of beached whales that sun themselves with TV waves and are too afraid of their own reflections to step up for a nation you should love. Even if you dont agree with the politics, you should have no qualms about giving a few years for the U S of A if it is asked of you.

You make a good point. Just wanted to point out that there are still some of us that enlist in the US Armed Forces voluntarily.

 

[PunDogg]

if you don't believe in this war, then you shouldn't have to fight. Espcially if we are war SOMEWHERE ELSE, other than on our soil, now i hope that never happens, but we started the war, and if you think I am going to go and fight over there were i sometimes agree with the people i will be shooting, then you are mistaken my friend. And don't you ever call me a coward, cuz my family have been through more than you could handle. Ok so back up and go site in your corner

Dogg

 

[Nitemare]

It's not your Grandfather's America. That is for sure

 

[Modeps]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
You make a good point. Just wanted to point out that there are still some of us that enlist in the US Armed Forces voluntarily.

and I applaud you, hopefully others do as well.

If you are currently serving, or have served.

Thank You.

 

[elanarchist]

Originally posted by: Modeps
Spawned from "A Few Draft Related Questions..."

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with many of you? It seems like the general concensus is that a Draft was instituted, most of you would dodge it or look for a backdoor to get out. You live in this country and enjoy the freedom it provides. If there is a draft, suck it up, be a man (or woman) and serve your time for this nation.

This nation has turned into a bunch of beached whales that sun themselves with TV waves and are too afraid of their own reflections to step up for a nation you should love. Even if you dont agree with the politics, you should have no qualms about giving a few years for the U S of A if it is asked of you.

<satire>
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with many of you? It seems like the general concensus is that a Draft was instituted, most of you would join in hearbeat. You live in this country and enjoy the freedom it provides. If there is a draft, suck it up, be a man (or woman) and use your freedom of thought and ask yourself "Is this really a good idea"?

This nation has turned into a bunch of beached whales that sun themselves with Fox News and are too afraid of their own reflections to step up for what's just. If you don't agree with the politics, take a stand and fight for your views.
</satire>

 

[PrinceofWands]

Having already served during time of war, I'm actually exempt from it either way. But you have a fundamental flaw (more than one actually) in your statement that requires addressing.

First of all there needs to be options of civil service instead of military, since there are some true pacifists out there who would be happy to serve their country, but not harm others in the process. Second, cowardice probably plays a role in some, but not in as many as you'd think. More likely they are taking the considered (and correct) stand that while a defensive draft or mandatory civil service might be acceptable, an offensive draft (especially while a dictatorial empiracal regime holds control of the country) is something to be avoided. Lastly, the government doesn't make decisions for the people of this country, however much everyone would like to think they do. They control only their own lives and make their own decisions...it's up to us, as individual citizens, to make our own decisions about their decisions. The decision to serve, or not to serve, is one we each have a right and responsibility to make after careful consideration of all facts and possibilities and no force on earth can ever take that from us (though we can offer it up without resistance if we so choose). Upon joining the military, if that was your choice, you would be required to take an oath to protect NOT the government or it's employees, but the constitution and ideals of this great nation. Once you take that oath you'd be hard pressed to uphold it while under the command of the current administration (just my opinion, yours can vary).