America prepares to put final nail in economic coffin - Climate Change Buffonery

[Doc Savage Fan]

We're already making very good progress. However, there are about 1000 new coal-fired plants currently planned worldwide...many in areas that don't care much about pollution control.

China’s CO2 emission in millions of metric tons from 1980 to 2009:

 

[Jaskalas]

However, there are about 1000 new coal-fired plants currently planned worldwide....

That's twice the number the United States has. Here's a kicker, even if all 1,000 of those coal-fired plants were turned into natural gas, the CO2 emissions from those would equal our coal emissions.

 

[desy]

http://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...e-US-Run-Out-of-Coal-in-200-Years-Or-20-Years

Another factor compromising coal’s economic viability is that the top three U.S. coal companies have huge debts coming due between now and 2021 at interest rates much higher than those available to better-positioned companies, the report contends.

Peabody Energy, the biggest U.S. coal company, has $650 million of 7.375 percent debt due in 2016; $1.5 billion of 6 percent debt due in 2018; $650 million of 6.5 percent debt due in 2020; and $1.34 billion of 6.25 percent debt due in 2021.

Second-ranked Arch Coal Inc. has $600 million of 8.75 percent debt due in 2016; $1 billion of 7 percent debt due in 2019; $375 million of 9.875 percent debt due in 2019; and $500 million of 7.25 percent debt due in 2020.

“U.S. coal production very likely has peaked,” Glustrom said. “And it is no longer cheap. Arch, they say, is in the land of the walking dead.”

U.S. decision-makers should, the reports says, develop “scenarios that require moving the U.S. beyond coal in significantly less than twenty years.”

Based on recent wind and solar bids in the western United States, the report adds, once coal costs rise above about $1.50 per MMBTU, “it can no longer be assumed that coal is the lowest-cost way to generate electricity.”

 

[Zorba]

Combined cycle power plants are what will replace the coal fired power plants. However, they have their own problems with NOx emissions which are known to create acid rain.

There are decent abatement technologies for NOx emission, such as ammonia injection.

Also modern combustors, which run lean of peak at all locations, such as TAPS comdustors, significantly reduce NOx production to begin with.

 

[Moonbeam]

I can feel my amygdala pulsing and throbbing as I shake in terror of the END Of EVERYTHING.

 

[Engineer]

Not going to happen, coal exporting is a big money business. You can bet that the political skids have been well greased.

I'm sure Mitch McConnel is doing his Dr. Evil laugh about right now.

 

[Sonikku]

I'm so tired of this climate change nonsense. They had some black moron on Fox last night trying so unbelievably hard to swear up and down it exists and we're causing it. What a load of crap.

 

[Zorba]

I am mad (more like incensed) because I purchased $20K of Peabody Energy (BTU) stock several years back and that investment is now worth $10k. Christ with this shit rule, I am probably better off selling it now and taking the loss. Obama seems determined to destroy my investment. How the hell will coal ever come back with crappy decisions like this?

So your (bad) stock investment is more important that any of the negatives that come from coal usage? It would be one thing if you actually had an argument pro-coal or against all the science about all the negatives of coal. But it seems all you care about is your investment. I think you should look up the world selfish.

But with or without this rule, as long as NG is cheap, coal is dieing.

 

[Jaskalas]

I can feel my amygdala pulsing and throbbing as I shake in terror of the END Of EVERYTHING.

A good explanation as any for why you'd want to harm the US economy. Due to fear.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I am mad (more like incensed) because I purchased $20K of Peabody Energy (BTU) stock several years back and that investment is now worth $10k. Christ with this shit rule, I am probably better off selling it now and taking the loss. Obama seems determined to destroy my investment. How the hell will coal ever come back with crappy decisions like this?

Looks like you've already had a $10,000 lesson in climate change denial and still haven't learned it. And this reduction is based on 2005 levels, which we are already down 10% from, so this really doesn't do much more than preserve an already existing trend.

 

[BoberFett]

Without getting into the economic or climate debates, I just want to say that I find it hilarious that bshole is card carrying member of the I Hate Republicans and The Wealthy Club until something affects his portfolio.

 

[QuantumPion]

Looks like you've already had a $10,000 lesson in climate change denial and still haven't learned it. And this reduction is based on 2005 levels, which we are already down 10% from, so this really doesn't do much more than preserve an already existing trend.

You still don't get it. Our CO2 levels are only down because those manufacturing and energy resources are moving to Asia to avoid regulations. Their levels have increased far more than ours have decreased, by like a factor of 4 for just China. Sweeping trash from the living room to the kitchen doesn't make the house any cleaner. It actually makes it dirtier, because when you have an out-of-sight place to dump it all, you make no effort to reduce the mess.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

There are decent abatement technologies for NOx emission, such as ammonia injection.

Also modern combustors, which run lean of peak at all locations, such as TAPS comdustors, significantly reduce NOx production to begin with.

NOx emissions from boilers and gas turbines/engines have been reduced by new technology but NOx is being emitted into the atmosphere by these plants. NOx can't be absorbed by plants like CO2.

http://www.epa.gov/captrade/maps/nox.html

 

[Zorba]

You still don't get it. Our CO2 levels are only down because those manufacturing and energy resources are moving to Asia to avoid regulations. Their levels have increased far more than ours have decreased, by like a factor of 4 for just China. Sweeping trash from the living room to the kitchen doesn't make the house any cleaner. It actually makes it dirtier, because when you have an out-of-sight place to dump it all, you make no effort to reduce the mess.

Good reason to support Tariffs against countries that have significantly weaker environmental laws than we do.

 

[K1052]

This. But, it will never happen. Everyone will cry about Chernobyl and Fukushima, as if those are even moderately relevant. The Japan incident is the best "if a powerplant is hit by the 3rd largest Earthquake ever recorded AND then by a massive tidal wave, it might leak a little bit! Nuclear power is too dangerous!"

Fukushima is actually a good argument in favor of moving to newer reactor designs as quickly as possible. The passive safety systems of new reactors would have prevented the entire accident from occurring. The US should be pursuing an aggressive schedule of replacing old reactors instead of extending their licenses, in addition to adding more plants to take up more base load from coal.

As for coal generation...its time has come and gone. Utilities have been allowed to externalize their costs onto the public through their emissions of heavy metals, radiative elements, particulates, and gasses with substantial negative health and environmental effects.

 

[smackababy]

Good reason to support Tariffs against countries that have significantly weaker environmental laws than we do.

That is a brilliant idea! Increase the cost of cheap goods! That couldn't possibly impact our economy negatively, right?

 

[smackababy]

Fukushima is actually a good argument in favor of moving to newer reactor designs as quickly as possible. The passive safety systems of new reactors would have prevented the entire accident from occurring. The US should be pursuing an aggressive schedule of replacing old reactors instead of extending their licenses, in addition to adding more plants to take up more base load from coal.

That is what I meant though. Fukushima was using 60 year old safety technology and it took a catastrophic event to dent it. Modern reactor design and safety regulations would prevent Fukushima (and I'm pretty sure having the backup generator shielded from sea water stops Fukushima anyway).


The entire problem with nuclear plants is the moron American public and their "not in my backyard" policy. Funny enough, design flaws in cars kill millions of people and nobody is saying "cars are so dangerous! get rid of them all".

Anyone not stupid knows the only real downside for nuclear power plants is high start up cost and waste disposal, which isn't even a huge problem with modern reactors.

 

[FerrelGeek]

Like every other liberal policy, your actions will have the exact opposite of their desired intent. For every percent of US GDP lost, Asia will gain. The demands for the goods and services produced by the US will shift to Asia where they will produce them with even dirtier energy. The net result will be even greater worldwide CO2 and pollution release.

And higher energy costs will lead to less purchasing power for most Americans. And we'll have to have yet another .gov funded subsidy for the poor so that they can pay their electric bills. Yay! More dependency. Better vote for us or 'they' will just sit back and laugh while all you women, children, minorities, and elderly roast of freeze to death. And let's have rolling blackouts too. After all, why should we be any better than any other 3rd world country? It's only fair after all.

Yes, there is some level of sarcasm in this post.

 

[K1052]

That is what I meant though. Fukushima was using 60 year old safety technology and it took a catastrophic event to dent it. Modern reactor design and safety regulations would prevent Fukushima (and I'm pretty sure having the backup generator shielded from sea water stops Fukushima anyway).


The entire problem with nuclear plants is the moron American public and their "not in my backyard" policy. Funny enough, design flaws in cars kill millions of people and nobody is saying "cars are so dangerous! get rid of them all".

Anyone not stupid knows the only real downside for nuclear power plants is high start up cost and waste disposal, which isn't even a huge problem with modern reactors.

Well I would say Fukushima was more than "dented". Multiple meltdowns with substantial release to the environment is a serious failure. The worst problem was that the electrical switchgear to power the plant's systems (aside from the emergency batteries) wasn't protected from flooding sufficiently so even if you got power at the plant you couldn't get the power to the pumps. With the newer plants all you have to do is top up the emergency tanks with freshwater after 72 hours to let the passive system continue to remove decay heat...which is much more easily done.

Siting new reactors on existing plant sites circumvents a lot of the opposition, an approach most US nuke utilities are taking with plans to expand.

 

[M0RPH]

I'm so tired of this climate change nonsense. They had some black moron on Fox last night trying so unbelievably hard to swear up and down it exists and we're causing it. What a load of crap.

Uhm, that was Neil Degrasse Tyson, a respected scientist, and the show was Cosmos, one of the best and most intelligent shows on TV. The facts that he was quoting are all proven scientifically. The only load of crap is the one between your ears.

 

[bshole]

Putting aside my own misery for a second, can you imagine the negative impact this will have on our most vunerable? They could see their energy expenses jump by 50% or more! Where are they supposed to get money to pay for this?

From Obama's own lips:

Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket. Even regardless of what I say about whether coal is good or bad. Because I’m capping greenhouse gases, coal power plants, you know, natural gas, you name it — whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, uh, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money on to consumers.

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/11/02/obama-ill-make-energy-prices-skyrocket/

If you are going to argue that this will not have a direct negative impact on the poor and on the economy, you are calling Obama a liar. Obama is aware of the obvious.

The question is why would Obama do such a thing with the economy still on wobbly legs? Who are the Cap and Trade puppet masters who will be making an absolute fortune administrating this fiasco? Is there a limit to what this monied class of evil men can pillage from the American economy? And..... is there any way I can buy stock in their companies? I am dead serious about the last one, what are the companies that will administer this mess and are they public?

 

[CLite]

This. But, it will never happen. Everyone will cry about Chernobyl and Fukushima, as if those are even moderately relevant. The Japan incident is the best "if a powerplant is hit by the 3rd largest Earthquake ever recorded AND then by a massive tidal wave, it might leak a little bit! Nuclear power is too dangerous!"

The two AP-1000 units at Vogtle, GA are coming along very well after large initial delays from the previous NRC chairman Jaczko obfuscating the licensing process. I believe the two being installed at VC summer are also progressing well.

If those units are actually installed relatively on-budget (based on the revised numbers from last year) then Nuclear power has a chance. Although if natural gas continues it's low cost march nothing has a chance to compete with it.

 

[dmcowen674]

Putting aside my own misery for a second, can you imagine the negative impact this will have on our most vunerable? They could see their energy expenses jump by 50% or more! Where are they supposed to get money to pay for this?

From Obama's own lips:

Quote:
Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket. Even regardless of what I say about whether coal is good or bad. Because I’m capping greenhouse gases, coal power plants, you know, natural gas, you name it — whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, uh, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money on to consumers.

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/11/02/obama-ill-make-energy-prices-skyrocket/

If you are going to argue that this will not have a direct negative impact on the poor and on the economy, you are calling Obama a liar. Obama is aware of the obvious.

The question is why would Obama do such a thing with the economy still on wobbly legs? Who are the Cap and Trade puppet masters who will be making an absolute fortune administrating this fiasco? Is there a limit to what this monied class of evil men can pillage from the American economy? And..... is there any way I can buy stock in their companies? I am dead serious about the last one, what are the companies that will administer this mess and are they public?

Electric Utilities have been raising rates like crazy before this anyway.

This is just another excuse for them to get even more money out of American pockets.

 

[JTsyo]

The Left has no problem with people selling it, as long as it isn't being burned here.

That's a problem since it's "global" climate change. What we have is a tragedy of the commons, everyone wants cheap power but don't realize what they are sacrificing.

 

[brycejones]

I'm so tired of this climate change nonsense. They had some black moron on Fox last night trying so unbelievably hard to swear up and down it exists and we're causing it. What a load of crap.

So you had to bring the man's race into it because you disagree with what he says? Don't even attempt to say you aren't racist ever again.