America is not great because it's a "Christian" nation

[Orignal Earl]

Many of the first immigrants that came to this country came here to escape religious persecution.

You should read about what happened to you if you tried to celebrate Christmas around those Puritans
That's why you have your *secular* country, by the time the immigrants got together to create the country, there were enough folk around to make sure those wackjobs could not take over.
Sadly though, it looks like they are making a major comeback these days, and the US is heading in the other direction again

 

[Macamus Prime]

That fucking cuckold closet case O'Reilly was right,... there IS a war on Christianity!!!

 

[HAL9000]

That fucking cuckold closet case O'Reilly was right,... there IS a war on Christianity!!!

I think the reasonable ones amongst us prefer to think of it as a war on delusion.

 

[her209]

Merry Xmas.

I think you meant to say "Happy Holidays".

 

[cybrsage]

In the sense that the first amendment keeps anyone (including government) from forcing their religion on someone else, yes, there is freedom FROM religion.

Very true, you are correct. Freedom from forced religion, yes.

 

[HAL9000]

Very true, you are correct. Freedom from forced religion, yes.

I think institutional religion in government would count as forced religion. IMO It shouldn't be "In God We Trust" etc.

 

[cybrsage]

Christians are great at branding. Take a pagan holiday, throw christ in the name and tell people to go to church instead of sacrificing a goat or whatever to satisfy their god(s). We all know god and santa clause are equally relevant to reality.

Very true. Emporer Constantine was one of the best and worst things that ever happened to Christianity.

At this point most christians do it for their kids, they don't want to/can't answer the hard questions so they take the easy way out and point to the bible. It's an ingenious coping mechanism that is as much a part of our evolution as masturbation. In fact I would say believing in god is the closest thing to mental masturbation.

This is one of the more uninformed and uninlightened posts I have read in a while. Not the most uninformed and uninlightened posts, but certainly up there.

 

[classy]

America isn't the greatest country on earth because we are a Christian nation. We are the greatest because we were the first country to make sure we didn't base our nation on religion and ancient hatreds. We based it on reason, liberty and capitalism.

I'm fucking sick and tired of hearing Conservatives spout this nonsense over and over again. Many of the first immigrants that came to this country came here to escape religious persecution. The notion that Christianity belongs ANYWHERE in our federal government is an abomination and anathema to everything this country was founded on.

Merry Xmas.

Do idiots ever read a history book. This country has some ugly stains like slavery. But this country's laws and society was influenced by a Judeo Christian idealogy. This can't even be debated. What we are now may be something different, but to deny that christianity somehow did not have major major influence in the beginnings of this nation is just foolish. And the US is still a baby nation at that.

 

[cybrsage]

I think institutional religion in government would count as forced religion. IMO It shouldn't be "In God We Trust" etc.

It does not count as institutional religion. Its overuse has lead to it being considered a non-religious statement akin to calling all facial tissues kleenex.

One of the reasons it is considered to be non-religion and instead simply a motto is its inclusion in our National Anthem:

The replacement motto: "In God We Trust:"

The war of 1812 was an unusual conflict. Both sides claimed victory. The winner depends upon which history books or which country's schools you attended. Also, the war lasted well beyond 1812.
During 1814, Francis Scott Key (a.k.a. Frank) had an eventful September. "Traveling under a white flag, Key met with both an enemy general and admiral, recovered a war prisoner, became a war prisoner, watched a historical bombardment, lost a night's sleep, and wrote" what eventually became the American national anthem: The Star Spangled Banner. 1
The final stanza reads:

"And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust.'
And the Star Spangled Banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave."
​

In 1864, the words were shortened to "In God We Trust" and applied to a newly designed two-cent coin.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm

That page is a very interesting read.

It has been challenged a few times, here is one of them:

• "Aronow v. United States," 432 F.2d 242 (1970) in the United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit The court ruled that:

"It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency 'In God We Trust' has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise."​

​

 

[HAL9000]

It does not count as institutional religion. Its overuse has lead to it being considered a non-religious statement akin to calling all facial tissues kleenex.

One of the reasons it is considered to be non-religion and instead simply a motto is its inclusion in our National Anthem:


http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm

That page is a very interesting read.

It has been challenged a few times, here is one of them:



[/INDENT][/INDENT]

I'd have to disagree, while it doesn't necessarily specify a religion it does clearly reference monotheism.

I was thinking more along the lines of school prayer, I don't think that should be allowed if it's a state school.

 

[blackangst1]

I'm about as anti-religion as they come, but I would encourage you to not make mountains out of molehills. No one is forcing you to believe their religion or think or speak or act as they do. If you're "sick and tired" of "hearing conservatives spout nonsense", the solution is quite simple: don't listen to them.

I enjoy listening to the opinions of those with whom I will never agree. It's far more interesting than being in an ideological echo chamber.

Im a Christian, and I approve of this message.

 

[cybrsage]

I was thinking more along the lines of school prayer, I don't think that should be allowed if it's a state school.

I think it is not allowed in any public school if it is teacher led prayer. Students are allowed to pray on their own or as a group depending on the situation they find themselves in.

It has crossed the line in many places, where they actively punish students at their graduation if they thank God or give God any credit for their accomplishments during their speech (the top 1 or 2 students give a speech at graduation). That is stupid to prevent...not a teacher saying it is not allowed.

 

[Anarchist420]

The 14th Amendment really kind of destroyed the 1st Amendment.

Anyway, some of the Founders were devout Christians, some were not. In the former group were Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry (opposed Jefferson's efforts to seperate the Episcopal Church from the State of Virginia), and Washington. In the latter group, you had Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams. Despite all of their disagreements on religion, none of them believed there should be a national religion and none of them were Atheists.

The last non-Christian President was William Howard Taft. However, his more libertarianly minded son, Robert (who was the leader of the conservative faction of the GOP) was a Christian.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Happy Boxing Day!!!!!

 

[CallMeJoe]

The 14th Amendment really kind of destroyed the 1st Amendment...

By forcing the States to observe it?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Is that why native americans and blacks were treated as sub-human, because we did not use religion or ancient hatreds?

And the Irish, Italians, European Jews, Catholics, Asians on the West Coast, those "wouldn't let your sister marry one", colonists loyal to the Crown, North and South, Godless Communists, !those! illegal immigrants bringing their slaves into Texas in violation of Mexican law, Worker Unions and etc. Now don't forget the indentured and "transportees" that were auctioned off.

 

[homercles337]

The first amendment is freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.

Are you really basing your entire argument on often interchangeable prepositions?

 

[kage69]

Now you've done it. Self professed christians are already in a froth over Tim Tebow being teased in the news and now of course the regularly scheduled holiday victim routine is in full effect.
Their sensitivities are running too high for you to voice distaste over their historical revisionism! How dare you!



Oh and Happy Winter Solstice and Festivus to all! 🙂

 

[child of wonder]

The first amendment is freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Its purpose was to prevent the ESTABLISHMENT of the Church of the USA (akin to the Church of England). That is why it is called the Establishment Clause.


http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/First_amendment

From your link:

"The establishment clause prohibits the government from passing legislation to establish an official religion or preferring one religion over another."

The bolded section is the important part of the 1st Amendment and the crux of what the establishment clause is all about. The government is not to get involved in religious affairs. Doing so either directly or indirectly implies a favored or preferred status to one or more religions. Even the illusion of favoritism towards one or more religions should be avoided, just as businesses preach to their employees to avoid situations that would even imply favoritism.

The government's role in religion should be to either recognize all religions equally by offering them all the same benefits and opportunities or to recognize no religions by offering them no benefits or additional opportunities.

 

[Texashiker]

And the Irish, Italians, European Jews, Catholics, Asians on the West Coast, those "wouldn't let your sister marry one", colonists loyal to the Crown, North and South, Godless Communists, !those! illegal immigrants bringing their slaves into Texas in violation of Mexican law, Worker Unions and etc. Now don't forget the indentured and "transportees" that were auctioned off.

Lets not forget the prison camps for Japanese-Americans during World War II.

I am sure that somehow someway, Christians can be blamed for imprisoning Japanese-Americans without a trial or due process.

 

[micrometers]

The truth is that America isn't great because of its freedom either.

And no, not Christianity either.

America is great because of its industry. Pure and simple.

and frankly, even things like religious freedom really aren't true across the country. Mainly the north.

 

[Texashiker]

and frankly, even things like religious freedom really aren't true across the country. Mainly the north.

Living in the bible belt, certain parts of our culture are defined by the Christian right.

For example, Texas does not sell whiskey on Sundays or Christmas. If I want to buy a bottle of Jack Daniels on Christmas to celebrate a Pagan holiday for the winter solstice, I am just out of luck.

 

[BoberFett]

We based it on reason, liberty and capitalism.

We're working hard to get rid of these three things, at which point being a bunch of religious zealots will be all we have left.

 

[Steeplerot]

Even as an atheist I'm going to have to say you are delusional when you say bullshit like, "muslim extremism is just another shade of the whackjob Christians we deal with here in the USA with our conservatives all up their ass. Same assholes, different desert fairies in the sky."

It was a bit harsh, (damn eggnog!) 😉 but our right wing in America are already in full swing radicalization mode.

You cannot even talk sense with them

Most of their senior politicians have been sucked in by the cult and have totally lost touch with governing rationally.

The creepy thing is they have gone so far to convince themselves that their little world they set up is reality, now fellow Americans are the enemy/too stupid to understand/or in cahoots with the enemy.

This is the path of the reactionary right. -The sure decline of a western power as the melting pot boils over with hate and rips itself apart.

If these mysterious moderate Republicans exist then please, come out of hiding and bitchslap these morons who have taken over.

Really to me the right is a cult, sure, some cultists may be moderate but when it comes to defending basic core issues they will side with the radical aspect as criticism from outside the circle is a threat.

This is a self-perpetuating cycle with almost always a bad ending.

 

[BudAshes]

This is one of the more uninformed and uninlightened posts I have read in a while. Not the most uninformed and uninlightened posts, but certainly up there.

I think about god in terms of evolution. Consciousness is a terrifying thing, being able to understand that you will die some day, that you will get old that everything familiar to you can disappear and you have no say in the matter. In mans beginning we needed relief from these pressures. So we imagine things like life after death, gods and goddesses etc. These ideas flourished because they let ancient man live out their lives without constant stress and despair. As man evolved so did his religion. Like masturbation lets you escape the pressures of mating and reproduction, religion lets you escape the pressures of depression and impending death we all face. Once we free ourselves from these things we have time to do amazing things like create farms, cities , technology etc. The more we evolve and change the more religion will change. Right now religions like Christianity are in turmoil, they will either evolve or die like everything else. I can't predict the future but in a 1000 years if we are still here you probably won't recognize Christianity as it is today.