America in Afghanistan through 2024?

[Genx87]

Maybe Nato can get the current Afghan authorities to sign off on a 2017-2024 time frame, but I doubt that will last. GWB&co tried to plan on being in Iraq forever, but Malike soon told the US to start slowly leaving starting Dec 31, 2008.

As it is, the USA is unwilling to commit the resources to win in Afghanistan, so staying in Afghanistan buys is more human misery for the Afghan people. As the USA and Nato think they are playing Wachamole with only the Taliban, when, in fact, that its the ordinary non-taliban majority population that is more inconvenienced and put in un-neccasary danger.

Go watch the documentary Restrepo. There is no "winning" in afghanistan. Only a fool would believe such a thing.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Go watch the documentary Restrepo. There is no "winning" in afghanistan. Only a fool would believe such a thing.

As far as I can tell, the only way to "win" is with genocide. No one wants that and it would create far more enemies than it would destroy.

 

[Nebor]

lol
I can totally see it.
No wonder so much money has gone down the drain.

Hey look village elders we have brought you great technology, let me just set this up for you.
Wait a minute, you have no electrical socket. NO PROBLEM
Build them a power plant.
Now your set up, we'll just move along now, we got some facebook pics to show the family back home we have to post.
Catch ya later bros

Sun sets on village elders staring at the strange new dark building

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/milreview/veneri_janfeb2011.pdf

I highly recommend the above article.

 

[Orignal Earl]

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/milreview/veneri_janfeb2011.pdf

I highly recommend the above article.

I've worked with several Afghan refugees and all of them could handle and understand any tool I could.
My uncle has been in far far far more 3rd world countries including Afghanistan and does not seem to have the problems you do.

I don't know what you want me to get out of this pdf

I had to wonder if your AF guy had ever heard or seen one of these before though..

 

[Nebor]

I've worked with several Afghan refugees and all of them could handle and understand any tool I could.
My uncle has been in far far far more 3rd world countries including Afghanistan and does not seem to have the problems you do.

I don't know what you want me to get out of this pdf

I had to wonder if your AF guy had ever heard or seen one of these before though..

That our experience working with the Afghan people is that they are fundamentally different than Westerners. They possess virtually no problem-solving or trouble shooting skills. When you see their attempts to operate modern technology or even repair old technology it's nothing short of amazing.

For example, I've seen them towing an up-armored HMMWV down a gravel road with another up-armored HMMWV. The vehicle being towed was clearly in "park." Finally their convoy stopped, and their battalion commander came back to assess the situation. I thought he had it figured out... until I saw that his instructions were to go get a larger, 5 ton multi-wheeled truck to drag the parked HMMWV. 😀

 

[Orignal Earl]

They possess virtually no problem-solving or trouble shooting skills. When you see their attempts to operate modern technology or even repair old technology it's nothing short of amazing.

Like I said above, I have seen them operate modern technology.
Hell, if you want to get technical, my Afghans were building houses for Westerners who would have no clue how to change even a washer in a tap.
Maybe its the US military that has the problem with problem solving and trouble shooting.
I don't think it would take very much googleing to show a thousand cases.

*What happened to that billion in cash we flew over to Iraq*

AF- * sigh, we lost it *

 

[airdata]

is that how long it's going to take us to extract all of their natural resources?

 

[werepossum]

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/milreview/veneri_janfeb2011.pdf

I highly recommend the above article.

I've read that before, and it is spot-on. There was a recent thread about America losing its commons; Afghanistan never developed commons. To the vast majority of Afghans technology, whether an electric compressor or a simple bicycle pump, is effectively magic; it either works or it doesn't. They do not understand the most basic principles of science, so if any technology doesn't work, they have no concept, much less ability, to trouble shoot it. I think the solution to that is to give them much simpler equipment and treat it like an AKM. Familiarize them with the operation, then tear it down and go over each part in turn, explaining the operation. They are primitive, not stupid; give them bicycle pumps and teach them as if they were AKMs and they will understand it. They likely won't be able to extend that knowledge to an electric compressor though - but if we do it right, their children will.

The other main problem, the societal part, is harder to fix. You can't really fundamentally change a culture except through complete conquest and occupation, and since war is the one thing the Afghans do well, that isn't an option. Probably the only chance is to set up as many vertical and/or small channels outside tribal lines for non-affiliated but capable people to earn a good living. My guess though is that Afghanistan will remain Sierra Leone in spades.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I've read that before, and it is spot-on. There was a recent thread about America losing its commons; Afghanistan never developed commons. To the vast majority of Afghans technology, whether an electric compressor or a simple bicycle pump, is effectively magic; it either works or it doesn't. They do not understand the most basic principles of science, so if any technology doesn't work, they have no concept, much less ability, to trouble shoot it. I think the solution to that is to give them much simpler equipment and treat it like an AKM. Familiarize them with the operation, then tear it down and go over each part in turn, explaining the operation. They are primitive, not stupid; give them bicycle pumps and teach them as if they were AKMs and they will understand it. They likely won't be able to extend that knowledge to an electric compressor though - but if we do it right, their children will.

The other main problem, the societal part, is harder to fix. You can't really fundamentally change a culture except through complete conquest and occupation, and since war is the one thing the Afghans do well, that isn't an option. Probably the only chance is to set up as many vertical and/or small channels outside tribal lines for non-affiliated but capable people to earn a good living. My guess though is that Afghanistan will remain Sierra Leone in spades.

You guys are trying real hard to make me think Americans are the most ignorant people on the earth...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Ahad_Mohmand

 

[Lemon law]

In Roman times, the people in Europe were ever so backward, they ran around in animal skins, lived in caves, didn't know how to smelt metal, and under stood nothing about nothing. So Europeans must be still backward today.

And gee Afghan must be heap dumb and incapable of learning.

But wait, Afghans must be a heck of a lot smarter than the USA and Nato, when they can bring Nato to a stand still and moving backwards, with technology much inferior to our own. But gee golly, Afghans are swift to learn how to field strip and repair a AK-47, use cell phones, and use and start understanding the technology.

Which brings it all back to what I have always said, people are people the whole earth around. If we want to understand them, we have to look what we are doing to them, and when we realize if we had to walk a mile in their shoes, we would not tolerate it either.

 

[Nebor]

I've read that before, and it is spot-on. There was a recent thread about America losing its commons; Afghanistan never developed commons. To the vast majority of Afghans technology, whether an electric compressor or a simple bicycle pump, is effectively magic; it either works or it doesn't. They do not understand the most basic principles of science, so if any technology doesn't work, they have no concept, much less ability, to trouble shoot it. I think the solution to that is to give them much simpler equipment and treat it like an AKM. Familiarize them with the operation, then tear it down and go over each part in turn, explaining the operation. They are primitive, not stupid; give them bicycle pumps and teach them as if they were AKMs and they will understand it. They likely won't be able to extend that knowledge to an electric compressor though - but if we do it right, their children will.

The other main problem, the societal part, is harder to fix. You can't really fundamentally change a culture except through complete conquest and occupation, and since war is the one thing the Afghans do well, that isn't an option. Probably the only chance is to set up as many vertical and/or small channels outside tribal lines for non-affiliated but capable people to earn a good living. My guess though is that Afghanistan will remain Sierra Leone in spades.

Exactly. It's not that they're stupid, or that they're not people. It's that they're like people from 1000 years ago. Injecting little bits of modern technology into their lives does nothing for them, just like when the Europeans and Russians did it.

Sure, they use cell phones and AK47s. But if you asked them how a self-contained 7.62x39mm cartridge works, or how that AK47 operates they'd be at a loss. If you asked them how that cell phone works they wouldn't have the first clue. They're entirely dependent on the outside world to give them those things and keep them running.

It's a fundamental lack of problem solving\troubleshooting. Whether it's a broken copier, a broken gun or a broken HMMWV, they'll just look at you and expect you to fix it. If you don't, no big deal, they'll leave it to rot just like the countryside full of old Soviet and European oddities that comprises the landscape of their country.

 

[werepossum]

You guys are trying real hard to make me think Americans are the most ignorant people on the earth...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Ahad_Mohmand

Yeah, and he's SO representative of the Afghan people.

Half a thousand years ago, a handful of Europeans knew how to build intricate mechanical clocks that not only kept time, but also accurately modeled the celestial bodies' movement through the night skies. We'd be hard-pressed to duplicate this today using purely mechanical mechanisms, and I'd bet good money that there are no more people today capable of doing such a thing completely without computers, as a percentage of the total, than there were five hundred years ago. Maybe fewer. Europeans of the time were no more similar to these clock-makers than most Afghans are similar to Abdul Ahad Mohmand.

And nothing against Mr. Mohmand, I'm sure he's a brilliant man, but his inclusion in the Soviet space program was purely an attempt to reconcile the Afghans into being happy Soviet citizens by showing them one of their own in such an important field. And note that unlike Masum, Mohmand left with the Soviets. Afghanistan has a very few people who are fully in the modern world; this is true of every nation.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Yeah, and he's SO representative of the Afghan people.

Half a thousand years ago, a handful of Europeans knew how to build intricate mechanical clocks that not only kept time, but also accurately modeled the celestial bodies' movement through the night skies. We'd be hard-pressed to duplicate this today using purely mechanical mechanisms, and I'd bet good money that there are no more people today capable of doing such a thing completely without computers, as a percentage of the total, than there were five hundred years ago. Maybe fewer. Europeans of the time were no more similar to these clock-makers than most Afghans are similar to Abdul Ahad Mohmand.

And nothing against Mr. Mohmand, I'm sure he's a brilliant man, but his inclusion in the Soviet space program was purely an attempt to reconcile the Afghans into being happy Soviet citizens by showing them one of their own in such an important field. And note that unlike Masum, Mohmand left with the Soviets. Afghanistan has a very few people who are fully in the modern world; this is true of every nation.

Oh man...
What do you suppose they teach at the Polytechnical University of Kabul.
How to tie shoelaces?
Should I throw up a much larger list of Afghans and have you go through them and discredit them?
Na.. I guess you need to believe what you need too
Sad that...

 

[Nebor]

Oh man...
What do you suppose they teach at the Polytechnical University of Kabul.

Not much. It's below the level of the worst community college in the United States. A couple of my interpreters and translators went there. Guys with "math" degrees couldn't do simple algebra, guys with "english" degrees struggled not just to use correct language but to remember the correct language after being taught.

They're pretty good at friending American girls on Facebook though.

 

[Lemon law]

No new born child anywhere understands anything about technology.

Get a clue, there is nothing hereditary about technology. We in the USA are born into a society with technology, but look at how many Americans can't use or understand our technology, and many would starve to death if put in more primitive conditions.

And if Nebor wants to tout American and Math, take away a calculator and about 80% of Americans could not add 12+17. Happens all the time in American stores, there is a power failure and all the cash registers fail, and the clerks shut down the store because no one can do simple math.

 

[Nebor]

And if Nebor wants to tout American and Math, take away a calculator and about 80% of Americans could not add 12+17. Happens all the time in American stores, there is a power failure and all the cash registers fail, and the clerks shut down the store because no one can do simple math.

And yet we can fire a cruise missile from 300 miles away and put it right through the front window of an orphanage.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Not much. It's below the level of the worst community college in the United States. A couple of my interpreters and translators went there. Guys with "math" degrees couldn't do simple algebra, guys with "english" degrees struggled not just to use correct language but to remember the correct language after being taught.

They're pretty good at friending American girls on Facebook though.

You got a story for everything don't you.
I'll just be kind of blunt here.
I think the only thing you did in Afghanistan was clean that Afghan General's piss pot.
So your "stories" are just a waste of space on me.

 

[werepossum]

Oh man...
What do you suppose they teach at the Polytechnical University of Kabul.
How to tie shoelaces?
Should I throw up a much larger list of Afghans and have you go through them and discredit them?
Na.. I guess you need to believe what you need too
Sad that...

You are acting like Afghans are on the whole more advanced and more modern than are Americans, yet your solution was to give them simpler pumps. Because, presumably, their giant advanced brains are simply too smart to handle electric compressors?

Afghanistan is and always has been a primitive society, even when there were no "evil Americans" there. They aren't goat herders and opium farmers because they have advanced beyond material things. They are goat herders and opium farmers because that is the level of most of their society. There is good reason why Boeing isn't losing sleep over the competition from Afghanistan. Nor is Apple. Nor is GM. Nor is Georgia Chopsticks, which exports wooden chopsticks to China. Afghanistan is simply a primitive society. If that offends your liberal mindset that all cultures are equal except that America sucks, so be it.

 

[Orignal Earl]

You are acting like Afghans are on the whole more advanced and more modern than are Americans, yet your solution was to give them simpler pumps.

You guys always have to go to extremes to try and make your point and that's hilarious.
No, I am not saying Afghans are more advanced and modern....

I was mocking the AF guy for not coming up with the non electrical pump.
He didn't problem solve very well

How do you imagine Afghans have been filling their tires and balls all this time?
Do you think there were no tires or balls in Afghanistan before America arrived?

 

[Lemon law]

Don't be an idiot Werepossim, in saying, "If that offends your liberal mindset that all cultures are equal except that America sucks, so be it."

The fact that Afghanistan is now largely untouched by Modern technology does not bother me at all, but we can maybe better understand the Taliban, who say, if modern technology brings us only nothing but bigger and better ways to murder Afghans, throw the Western Devils out because we don't need those technologies.

Its not that America sucks, its our American foreign policy dipshits that are so stupid, as they fail to show Afghans the fact that modern technology can benefit everyone on the planet.

The point is and remains, werepossum, we can't expect to sell our technology to Afghans who only see its downsides. As our foreign policy idiots try to try the impossible, as they try to sell a turd of Karzi government to the Afghan people. The Afghans have already been there and tried that, its why they choose the Taliban over a Karzai type government 15 years ago. Its not that the Afghans ever liked the Taliban brutal government, its a matter that the Taliban was superior to the past Afghan government and again superior to what the Karzai government of Nato delivers.

But as Nebor points out, American contractors can make tons of money to deliver failure. As they can have fun fun fun, until their Uncle Sam wises up and takes their cash cow T bird away. But by then, we will have spent a pile of blood and treasure and earned an entire regions hatred. As we will have learned nothing as we search for some new peace with honor phrase as we get kicked out in disgrace.

In short NO, werepossim, I don't blame my country, I blame idiots like you who vote to empower the military industrial complex to be fully funded while turning a blind nose to smelling the coffee.

 

[Nebor]

You got a story for everything don't you.
I'll just be kind of blunt here.
I think the only thing you did in Afghanistan was clean that Afghan General's piss pot.
So your "stories" are just a waste of space on me.

Damn, you got me. It's quite a racket I have though, you paid me more money in a year than an Afghan makes in a lifetime just to clean a toilet. 🙄

I find it amusing how dismissive you are of all the veterans' viewpoints on here. How many tours have you done in Afghanistan? You and Lemon Law sure are whiz-bang Afghanistan geniuses compared to those of us that have spent years studying and going there. Why don't you join up and show us how to do it right?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Damn, you got me. It's quite a racket I have though, you paid me more money in a year than an Afghan makes in a lifetime just to clean a toilet. 🙄

I find it amusing how dismissive you are of all the veterans' viewpoints on here. How many tours have you done in Afghanistan? You and Lemon Law sure are whiz-bang Afghanistan geniuses compared to those of us that have spent years studying and going there. Why don't you join up and show us how to do it right?

Don't go getting all whiney on me, it's not very vet like
You aren't "all the vets here"
And there you go with your American problem solving again, you want me to go clean up your mess...

 

[Nebor]

Don't go getting all whiney on me, it's not very vet like
You aren't "all the vets here"
And there you go with your American problem solving again, you want me to go clean up your mess...

I was referring to werepossum too.

I don't want you to clean up anything, because I don't think you can do it. But then, you haven't tried. At least I've tried, despite your criticisms. You're armchair quarterbacking.

The article is a good indication of the general attitude of the military towards Afghanistan, given more credence by the fact that it was widely published in military circles. And even more amazing is that it came down from the top of my organization, which is tasked with providing all the training for those deploying in advisory\mentoring roles in Afghanistan & Iraq. The message is that it's an interesting, sometimes enriching experience for us, but we're not much closer to achieving our goals now than we were 5 years ago. And the Afghans are just waiting for us to leave so they can go back to doing what they've always done between occupations.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I don't want you to clean up anything, because I don't think you can do it.

How about this.
You keep cleaning toilets.
I'll keep on welcoming refugees and showing them we aren't all like you.

 

[Nebor]

How about this.
You keep cleaning toilets.
I'll keep on welcoming refugees and showing them we aren't all like you.

How about I keep working with Afghans every day and training the next cycle of advisers and mentors heading to Afghanistan. Seems like a better investment of the tax payer's money in me.