America and our Future

[theblackbox]

I've done a lot of thinking about this, and have finally came to a conclusion. I have read all over how everyone has criticized every action the current administration has done, and how we as a people have responded since 9/11.

At this point i've drawn together that maybe we deserved a wake up call, and maybe we shouldn't be sheltered from the violence the rest of the world endures.
What good is freedom when 50% of the population don't think they're free and the other 50% think free means taking the rights away from women and forcing morality on us.

It makes me ill. We're a country divided, our armed forces are fighting a war very few people defend these days, and violence in our cities is at an all time high as poverty raises and education plummets. We spend more time driving drunk and killing each other over trivial things like road rage and petty theft. We now grant leniacy to minors that commit murder, and punish people for using drugs and only harming themselves.

Maybe it's time we began paying. Maybe if America was more embattled like Eastern Europe or the middle east, where car bombs and suicide bombers were an everydate event on american streets. Maybe if we shared the pain and suffering the rest of the world endures on a daily basis we would better understand the plight humanity is in.

Instead, we sit behind our computer monitors, typing about how bad things are and how disenfranchised we are as we gobble down twinkies and consume mountain dew. The closest the majority of people that post here to violence is when they play WoW or Half Life 2.

We hear about class struggle and racial issues. The US and it's citizens are blind to reality. What if the US was like parts of Africa where people get pulled from their cars and shot in the streets daily just because of their color.

Maybe if that happened here, we'd appreciate what we have more. Maybe we need to wake up. Maybe we need to suffer like the rest of the world.

Personally, I love the life and freedom i have here, i love knowing that i can walk down the street, go into a building, go into a busy area without worrying about if the ryder truck that just pulled up is full of explosives, or if someone in my family may die.

regardless of who is in office, what party is in charge, america stands for more. it's one of the few places where people from different religions don't kill each other over land or beliefs on a daily basis.
and it doesn't matter if god(s) on our side or not.

but maybe we should suffer, and then we might be better for it.

 

[Stunt]

I agree...the 1st world is breeding uninformed twits who have no perception of what is actually going on.
Just look at paris hilton, and jessica simpson...these people are dumber than nails.
is this the wave of the future?...i sure as hell hope not. I think the worst thing we can do is censor ourselves...a trend which has gone on for years.
Now at the same time, i'd perfer that leaders of the world not use this as examples of why we should start wars and become more cutthroat.

Wishing pain and suffering on our own people is counterproductive.

 

[yllus]

While there will always been division in America/the West, the basis of what you said is something I agree with. "We" have collectively forgotten that is sometimes takes sacrifice and a near ruthless hand to preserve something as ultimately fragile as a system of governance and ideology.

For a short time, America saw red and united to seek vengeance and to try to right a wrong after the WTC attacks. To be honest, as a Canadian looking in it was a bit scary. There is nothing more powerful than a people like you Americans when you're united. For those first few days I didn't know if y'all were going to some poor country off the face of the earth as a lesson for others, though in retrospect there was no chance of that happening. But you did a good thing in finally righting a historical wrong in Afghanistan by putting them back on the path to self-determination, and IMO you're doing the same now in Iraq.

A lot of people seem confused by the Christian/Muslim twist to the whole thing - but that has so incredibly little to do with it. The religion doesn't determine the ideas; the ideas usurp the religion. The people who export terror around the globe want a different way of life than we in Canada, America, Britain, Australia, France... do. You are more than welcome to try to talk and reason with them, but to a large extent the conclusion is foregone. And if part of changing the environment where these ideas can forment means obliterating a dictatoral regime or two, consider me on board (within reason).

 

[Stunt]

I agree in the spead of democracy yllus, but the price of iraq was far too great. There are literally dozens if not a hundred dictatorships around the world, and to spend 400billion or whatever the number is now on 25million measly people that MIGHT not attack the US is just nutty.
There needs to be some sanity in these crusades.
I think the US currently lacks this. The alternative, i have no idea...but 400billion goes a long way in ACTUALLY fighting terror, and not investing in regime changes, which POTENTIALLY COULD stop terrorism.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: theblackbox
I've done a lot of thinking about this, and have finally came to a conclusion. I have read all over how everyone has criticized every action the current administration has done, and how we as a people have responded since 9/11.

At this point i've drawn together that maybe we deserved a wake up call, and maybe we shouldn't be sheltered from the violence the rest of the world endures.
What good is freedom when 50% of the population don't think they're free and the other 50% think free means taking the rights away from women and forcing morality on us.

It makes me ill. We're a country divided, our armed forces are fighting a war very few people defend these days, and violence in our cities is at an all time high as poverty raises and education plummets. We spend more time driving drunk and killing each other over trivial things like road rage and petty theft. We now grant leniacy to minors that commit murder, and punish people for using drugs and only harming themselves.

Maybe it's time we began paying. Maybe if America was more embattled like Eastern Europe or the middle east, where car bombs and suicide bombers were an everydate event on american streets. Maybe if we shared the pain and suffering the rest of the world endures on a daily basis we would better understand the plight humanity is in.

Instead, we sit behind our computer monitors, typing about how bad things are and how disenfranchised we are as we gobble down twinkies and consume mountain dew. The closest the majority of people that post here to violence is when they play WoW or Half Life 2.

We hear about class struggle and racial issues. The US and it's citizens are blind to reality. What if the US was like parts of Africa where people get pulled from their cars and shot in the streets daily just because of their color.

Maybe if that happened here, we'd appreciate what we have more. Maybe we need to wake up. Maybe we need to suffer like the rest of the world.

Personally, I love the life and freedom i have here, i love knowing that i can walk down the street, go into a building, go into a busy area without worrying about if the ryder truck that just pulled up is full of explosives, or if someone in my family may die.

regardless of who is in office, what party is in charge, america stands for more. it's one of the few places where people from different religions don't kill each other over land or beliefs on a daily basis.
and it doesn't matter if god(s) on our side or not.

but maybe we should suffer, and then we might be better for it.

You would have to be a Jewish mother to have a conscience like that! The reason we don't suffer like others is because we keep our house clean and don't let misery happen if it within human capabilities to prevent it. Sometimes we can't prevent it. Then we tolerate it with courage while we fight the cause of it.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: yllus
While there will always been division in America/the West, the basis of what you said is something I agree with. "We" have collectively forgotten that is sometimes takes sacrifice and a near ruthless hand to preserve something as ultimately fragile as a system of governance and ideology.

For a short time, America saw red and united to seek vengeance and to try to right a wrong after the WTC attacks. To be honest, as a Canadian looking in it was a bit scary. There is nothing more powerful than a people like you Americans when you're united. For those first few days I didn't know if y'all were going to some poor country off the face of the earth as a lesson for others, though in retrospect there was no chance of that happening. But you did a good thing in finally righting a historical wrong in Afghanistan by putting them back on the path to self-determination, and IMO you're doing the same now in Iraq.

A lot of people seem confused by the Christian/Muslim twist to the whole thing - but that has so incredibly little to do with it. The religion doesn't determine the ideas; the ideas usurp the religion. The people who export terror around the globe want a different way of life than we in Canada, America, Britain, Australia, France... do. You are more than welcome to try to talk and reason with them, but to a large extent the conclusion is foregone. And if part of changing the environment where these ideas can forment means obliterating a dictatoral regime or two, consider me on board (within reason).

Some have forgotten, some never knew. The larger "We" haven't forgotten!

 

[Steeplerot]

Regime change under the gun has historiclly always been a failure in the face of a united people in their own land. (barring genocide)
And you can't forget the US admin has ALWAYS used excuses like this when going for a grab.Their actions speak louder then words
if you look under the curtain of lip service and daily excuses trotted out it's a blatent grab for mideast oil, nothing new. Just more new young people willing to buy into the farce.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Regime change under the gun has historiclly always been a failure in the face of a united people in their own land. (barring genocide)

That sounds real nice, but of course its just not true. Read a history book.

 

[imported_Condor]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Regime change under the gun has historiclly always been a failure in the face of a united people in their own land. (barring genocide)
And you can't forget the US admin has ALWAYS used excuses like this when going for a grab.Their actions speak louder then words
if you look under the curtain of lip service and daily excuses trotted out it's a blatent grab for mideast oil, nothing new. Just more new young people willing to buy into the farce.

You really reflect a void in the subject of history. Almost all successful regime change has been done with force. Most people don't let themselves get desperate enough to require external regime change before they do it for themselves. The ME just doesn't seem to be able to do it for themselves. If they had, we wouldn't be there.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Stunt
I agree in the spead of democracy yllus, but the price of iraq was far too great. There are literally dozens if not a hundred dictatorships around the world, and to spend 400billion or whatever the number is now on 25million measly people that MIGHT not attack the US is just nutty.
There needs to be some sanity in these crusades.
I think the US currently lacks this. The alternative, i have no idea...but 400billion goes a long way in ACTUALLY fighting terror, and not investing in regime changes, which POTENTIALLY COULD stop terrorism.

I'll say it once again. Just because the US is in Iraq spending that money doesn't mean this is all about Iraq. The change in the ME and elsewhere has to begin somewhere and unfortunately it must be a forcible change. Let's face it. All the diplomacy and foreign aid in the world wouldn't have toppled Saddam, Syria, Iran, SA, Afghanistan, or any of the other major problem places. It, unfortunately, could only be accomplished by force. Iraq is not just about Iraq. It's about setting an example for the rest, and already there are results. Israel and Palestine are caustiously moving forward. A democratic revolution has happened in Lebenon recently. SA is ploddingly implementing small democratic reforms. There are stirrings in Egypt. You can bet the Mullahs in Iran are quaking in their boots wondering when the shizz is going to fizz there.

All in all, this 400 billion is a pittance to foment the changes that are now occurring. It's worth every penny, particularly considering and comparing what one single terrorist attack cost the US and the world.

Terrorism will never stop. Never. But it can be significantly reduced and I think the Bush doctrine is the way to reduce it not only very effectively, but in the fastest way possible, because we just can't wait 10, or 20, or 30 years for diplomacy to achieve the same goals. Yes people are dying in the process, but it could be argued that going the diplomatic route could potentially result in even more deaths in the long run.

I have thought and continue to believe the US is doing the right thing, even if the short term is painful and seemingly costly. ymmv.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Regime change under the gun has historiclly always been a failure in the face of a united people in their own land. (barring genocide)

That sounds real nice, but of course its just not true. Read a history book.

OK, what country did you read about?

 

[Proletariat]

Steeplerot you're cool and all... But the quickest response is going to be Germany and Japan. It would be a shame to forget what has happened to Japanese culture after WWII but most do. The fact remains that ECONOMICALLY both are successful.

 

[Stunt]

TLC, if it was the right thing to do, and dipomacy/aid doesnt work, howcome other nations refused to jump on the iraq train?
i mean if it's cheaper for the long term, how come your gov't was unable to convince the rest of the world to invest in this 'worthy' cause?
are you saying that americans are the most social in the world?...that must be why you have such a social domestic policy :roll:
i somehow fail to believe the wars are out of the goodness of your hearts.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Steeplerot you're cool and all... But the quickest response is going to be Germany and Japan. It would be a shame to forget what has happened to Japanese culture after WWII but most do. The fact remains that ECONOMICALLY both are successful.

That is the typical line yes, but they were willing losers ready to move on.
Also you have to cite major cultural diffrences.
Germany KNEW hitler was wrong most people didn't even vote for him!
Notice there was almost NO partisan action after hitler offed himself.
(also in a way we failed Germany letting half their country get taken by sovjets so which regime are you reffering to east or west?)

Japan was "honorably" defeated and the treaty of peace was signed with the clause that the mainland NOT invaded by uninvited soldiers. (And they would keep their emperor so saying japan had a regime change is nothing more republican spin)

Just ask dude I can bust the half truths all day about their illegal little war 😉

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Steeplerot you're cool and all... But the quickest response is going to be Germany and Japan. It would be a shame to forget what has happened to Japanese culture after WWII but most do. The fact remains that ECONOMICALLY both are successful.

Not if you ask the americans in the germany thread...
many americans are fast to tout the 130% debt to gdp of japan as well.

They are sucessful when you want to support your motives on expansionist wars.
But horrible when showing why the US is so great.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Stunt
I agree in the spead of democracy yllus, but the price of iraq was far too great. There are literally dozens if not a hundred dictatorships around the world, and to spend 400billion or whatever the number is now on 25million measly people that MIGHT not attack the US is just nutty.
There needs to be some sanity in these crusades.
I think the US currently lacks this. The alternative, i have no idea...but 400billion goes a long way in ACTUALLY fighting terror, and not investing in regime changes, which POTENTIALLY COULD stop terrorism.

I'll say it once again. Just because the US is in Iraq spending that money doesn't mean this is all about Iraq. The change in the ME and elsewhere has to begin somewhere and unfortunately it must be a forcible change. Let's face it. All the diplomacy and foreign aid in the world wouldn't have toppled Saddam, Syria, Iran, SA, Afghanistan, or any of the other major problem places. It, unfortunately, could only be accomplished by force. Iraq is not just about Iraq. It's about setting an example for the rest, and already there are results. Israel and Palestine are caustiously moving forward. A democratic revolution has happened in Lebenon recently. SA is ploddingly implementing small democratic reforms. There are stirrings in Egypt. You can bet the Mullahs in Iran are quaking in their boots wondering when the shizz is going to fizz there.

All in all, this 400 billion is a pittance to foment the changes that are now occurring. It's worth every penny, particularly considering and comparing what one single terrorist attack cost the US and the world.

Oh really. If you think it's worth every penny, you wouldn't mind paying an extra $2000 in taxes to pay for the war in Iraq? Or you mean it's worth every penny of someone else's money? 😀

Terrorism will never stop. Never. But it can be significantly reduced and I think the Bush doctrine is the way to reduce it not only very effectively, but in the fastest way possible, because we just can't wait 10, or 20, or 30 years for diplomacy to achieve the same goals. Yes people are dying in the process, but it could be argued that going the diplomatic route could potentially result in even more deaths in the long run.

I have thought and continue to believe the US is doing the right thing, even if the short term is painful and seemingly costly. ymmv.

Yes, my mileage does vary. Iraq hasn't attacked us. It was in no position to attack us. We could have easily waited 10, 20 or 30 years just as we are doing with Cuba. Our mere presence in Saudi Arabia has incited terrorism against us. Our active occupation of Iraq is going to incite even more. Why is it so hard to understand that Muslims don't like to be occupied by Christians?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Stunt
TLC, if it was the right thing to do, and dipomacy/aid doesnt work, howcome other nations refused to jump on the iraq train?
i mean if it's cheaper for the long term, how come your gov't was unable to convince the rest of the world to invest in this 'worthy' cause?
are you saying that americans are the most social in the world?...that must be why you have such a social domestic policy :roll:
i somehow fail to believe the wars are out of the goodness of your hearts.

The reasons for not jumping on that train are myriad and assorted. Most though boil down to economic reasons and a bit of indecision. While many people would like to idealistically believe their decisions were all about humanitarianism, and the desire to avoid conflict and bloodshed. A present and historical gander at Russia, China, France, Germany, and others kind of blows that theory out of the water.

The Bush doctrine had its risks as well, which is where the indecision comes in. There was a huge chance it might not work, and that chance still exists, even though the odds of it not succeeding presently seem to be reducing by the day. There were those who were afraid to make the wrong choice. So what they actually did was make no choice at all. They took no sides. They opposed both sides on the issue, which accomplishes nothing and gets us nowhere. The US, UK, and a few others decided to take that risk and now it appears the rewards will be forthcoming. We shall see.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Oh really. If you think it's worth every penny, you wouldn't mind paying an extra $2000 in taxes to pay for the war in Iraq? Or you mean it's worth every penny of someone else's money? 😀

No need for his money just head him down to the recruiter and do "duty" if he thinks this war is worth it. :laugh:

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: Stunt
I agree in the spead of democracy yllus, but the price of iraq was far too great. There are literally dozens if not a hundred dictatorships around the world, and to spend 400billion or whatever the number is now on 25million measly people that MIGHT not attack the US is just nutty.
There needs to be some sanity in these crusades.
I think the US currently lacks this. The alternative, i have no idea...but 400billion goes a long way in ACTUALLY fighting terror, and not investing in regime changes, which POTENTIALLY COULD stop terrorism.

Yeah, $400 billion could go a long way. But there is only so much we can do to actually fight terrorism. We rely on other countries to do the fighting, such as Pakistan, b/c they won't let our troops in there to do it. We do as much as we can, but unfortunetly, we can't do much more than we have been doing. Bush believes that spreading democracy throughout the middle east will help stop terrorism in the long run. I don't know if i fully agree with that, but spreading democracy can only be a good thing. His idea makes some sense, and if you can come up with a better one, by all means, lay it on us, I'd like to hear it (honestly).

 

[glenn1]

Maybe it's time we began paying. Maybe if America was more embattled like Eastern Europe or the middle east, where car bombs and suicide bombers were an everydate event on american streets. Maybe if we shared the pain and suffering the rest of the world endures on a daily basis we would better understand the plight humanity is in.

And of course you purposely have it ass backwards because you stupidly feel some kind of guilt. The average third-worlder would smack the sh!t out of you for your stupidity in thinking this and you'd deserve it. Americans do plenty of self-destructive and foolish things but only an idiot could look at someone in pain and think it would be better if he were hurting just as much so that he'd better "understand" the suffering they were going through. The U.S. doesn't need more suffering, the rest of the world needs to look at what we're doing right and imitate it.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: glenn1
the rest of the world needs to look at what we're doing right and imitate it.

Yeah so they can get bombed too?
Or do you mean the state-funded gay prostitute in the whitehouse bit?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Oh really. If you think it's worth every penny, you wouldn't mind paying an extra $2000 in taxes to pay for the war in Iraq? Or you mean it's worth every penny of someone else's money?

Nope. I would gladly pay many times as much in taxes to see what I'm seeing happen there now. It's my pennies and I'm glad to spend them.

Yes, my mileage does vary. Iraq hasn't attacked us. It was in no position to attack us. We could have easily waited 10, 20 or 30 years just as we are doing with Cuba. Our mere presence in Saudi Arabia has incited terrorism against us. Our active occupation of Iraq is going to incite even more. Why is it so hard to understand that Muslims don't like to be occupied by Christians?

Once again, look beyond Iraq for the effect being in Iraq has. Stop believing or insisting that it's ONLY about Iraq. Yes, SA was the problem, but there was no way in hell of going into SA without toppling the economy of the entire world and bringing about complete chaos. Trying to preserve our way of life would do us no good if we destroy that way of life in the process.

Nor are we going to be occupying anything. Take a hard look at Iraq. They are now setting up their own government. They will rule themselves. That is not an occupation. The US may have a long-term presence there, much like we still do in Japan and Germany. Would you consider those countries occupaied though? Sorry, but "occupied" is just a silly use of hyperbolic terminology.

 

[Steeplerot]

Yeah listen to TLC! Were not "occupying" iraq, were uhhh, just hanging out there till they grow flowers in the desert to shower us with. Rummy says so.
You got to go to war with the topsoil you got not...wait..wtf?
What else do you call it?

 

[Stunt]

So what you are saying is that the Bush doctrine is conservative domestically and social internationally...
who should pay for this democracy conversion?...how often should you guys do this, and do you continue until there are no dictatorships?

Because currently, you cannot afford this war, it's being paid for by the unborn, why not make the next generation of americans pay for an iran war, and the next after that pay for a NK war?...What if you spend so much money now that the economy is thrown into recession where the next generations cannot afford it due to lack of jobs?

This is the same idea CAD brings up when discussing minimum wage or welfare amounts...where do you stop?...you need to set limits as converting the democracies of the world using force is impossible, and sure as hell is not a conservative mindset at the very least.

 

[glenn1]

Yeah so they can get bombed too?
Or do you mean the gay prostitute bit?

Oh, I forgot, that inconvienient "these rights are self-evident" kinda thoughts get in the way of creating your perfect Great Society. Those brown-skinned people don't deserve life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness because in your mind "they didn't fight for those things themselves."

And I guess you'd prefer we undergo "suffering" for suffering's sake so we can better "understand" the mentality of a gay Saudi Arabian or (until recently) Afghani before he was stoned to death. That would be so great if we brought that to this country rather than exporting ideas like religious tolerance, because after all "suffering" is good for us, right?