AMD's Unified Gaming Strategy and the future of graphics

[sxr7171]

The way some people are talking there shouldn't even be a PC gaming industry right now. It should have gone bust years ago.

Also while AMD may obtain optimizations which is good for them, I have several "gaming evolved" titles that run better on my nVidia GPU.

AMD for its part better release a powerful part for PC gamers and take full advantage of these optimizations. But a company making PC games would shoot itself in the foot if it did not at least support nVidia cards and fix major issues for those users.

 

[sontin]

Maybe for Nvidia.

HSA is designed to make their existing HSA optimized code work seamlessly with every new generation of HSA based APUs and GPUs.

There will be no cost or time penalty for developers and publishers to continue supporting newer generations of AMD GPUs.

So they will.

Lol, sure there is a penalty: No market. Why would any sane developer support a dead update of HSA when the only market - console - is outdated?
On the other hand: With nVidia's Kepler architecture in the mobile world every engine developer will support Kepler. And companies which are seeing the future in consoles will be left behind. And with no presence AMD will lost more market share and will exist only as another component supplier for consoles.

 

[bystander36]

There are millions of sales of 79xxs and 670/680s combined. Why would devs not cater to millions of enthusiast gamers around the world? Are they insane?

Games are developed on workstations with the best graphics, they run through hi-res textures and hi-poly models to do all the animations.. then they scale it down and create options for med, low, consoles etc. If they already have the best quality resources, why would they not include it in their game when millions of gamers have the hardware to use it?

What you guys propose makes no sense. As long as there are so many people willing to spend so much for discrete graphics, they will always matter. I don't see a sudden and massive decline in # of gamers buying top end GPUs, do you?

I did say, "in time". It'll be a while before it happens, but I fully expect it to happen. As iGPU's get better and more capable, and people stop needing the top of the line discrete card to get good looking graphics with good FPS, there will come a time, that the majority of people stop buying them and eventually the market will disappear.

I'm not saying it is in the next few years, but it will come one day, or perhaps a new technology will come out to drive holographic systems or what ever. Time will tell.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I did say, "in time". It'll be a while before it happens, but I fully expect it to happen. As iGPU's get better and more capable, and people stop needing the top of the line discrete card to get good looking graphics with good FPS, there will come a time, that the majority of people stop buying them and eventually the market will disappear.

I'm not saying it is in the next few years, but it will come one day, or perhaps a new technology will come out to drive holographic systems or what ever. Time will tell.

No way cause you can't expect me to upgrade my CPU every time a new game comes out that renders it worthless.

 

[psoomah]

What you guys propose makes no sense. As long as there are so many people willing to spend so much for discrete graphics, they will always matter. I don't see a sudden and massive decline in # of gamers buying top end GPUs, do you?

Depends. If you're running a 1080P single screen, Kaveri + a midrange GPU will likely provide all the performance there is to extract.

If you're running triple screens and/or 2560 monitors or 4K televisions a top end GPU will be needed.

A salient point is what AMD is doing with EA they are probably doing with all major publishers and game engines, which will give AMD a decided advantage over both Intel and Nvidia going into the future. Those AMD APU and GPU combinations are likely to very potent at very reasonable price points, and, as were talking Steamroller cores and HSA here, at least as potent at the high end of gaming though there may be bandwidth issues with the APUs, though nothing 8gb of GDDR5 system memory motherboards can't handle. GOIng to be awkward until DDR4 comes out.

Triple 4K and 8K monitor gaming means truly high end GPUs aren't going away any time soon, but that segment will be niche far into the future. Intel and Nvidia will be still be competitive at the high end for the time being due to bandwidth issues, but once DDR4 is available and AMD APUs move to 20nm, that will change.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Depends. If you're running a 1080P single screen, Kaveri + a midrange GPU will likely provide all the performance there is to extract.

If you're running triple screens and/or 2560 monitors or 4K televisions a top end GPU will be needed.

A salient point is what AMD is doing with EA they are probably doing with all major publishers and game engines, which will give AMD a decided advantage over both Intel and Nvidia going into the future. Those AMD APU and GPU combination is likely to very potent at very reasonable price points, and, as were talking Steamroller cores and HSA here, at least as potent at the high end of gaming.

Triple 4K and 8K monitor gaming means truly high end GPUs aren't going away any time soon, but that segment will be niche far into the future.

Did you see where the original article was recanted cause there is no "only optimizing for AMD hardware" going on? Or how looking at the Alpha build of Battlefield 4, there's no shortage of performance from top end Nvidia hardware. Intel very much still dominates AMD on the CPU side.

 

[sxr7171]

I did say, "in time". It'll be a while before it happens, but I fully expect it to happen. As iGPU's get better and more capable, and people stop needing the top of the line discrete card to get good looking graphics with good FPS, there will come a time, that the majority of people stop buying them and eventually the market will disappear.

I'm not saying it is in the next few years, but it will come one day, or perhaps a new technology will come out to drive holographic systems or what ever. Time will tell.

I think the Die size on my GPU is nearly 4 times larger than that of my CPU. So I can't wait to see this new CPU that offers all that performance of my CPU and GPU combined. Especially considering they are having enough problems keeping temps in check on Haswell.

While you are right that more people will be fine with their iGPU as time goes on the discrete GPU will not just die. There will always be a market for it. Maybe a smaller market, maybe they will go up in price but people will always be there to buy a discrete card.

Even if at the end they are Pro level cards trickled down to consumers like the Titan or 780GTX. People bought those. nVidia is making marginal revenue from those. The market will exist for a decade at least. There are people still buying vinyl for heaven's sake.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

I'm not doubting any of that. Just that when the time comes that you get performance in the iGPU that is as good as a mid-range dedicated GPU you may be able to run high.

That would be probably a 250w APU, seems unlikely since that would be nightmare for OEMs and has little to no chance of success in any other market.

 

[notty22]

Lol, now the OP is suggesting a hybrid crossfire setup. APU and discrete gpu. AMD is publicly having crossfire issues, with standard multi-gpu configs. There basic driver approach is BROKEN. Counting on some Jetson Tech, future offering will disappoint.

 

[psoomah]

Lol, sure there is a penalty: No market. Why would any sane developer support a dead update of HSA when the only market - console - is outdated?

That make absolutely no sense to me.

 

[cmdrdredd]

That would be probably a 250w APU, seems unlikely since that would be nightmare for OEMs and has little to no chance of success in any other market.

true enough

 

[3DVagabond]

There are people still buying vinyl for heaven's sake.

That's true, but look at how much innovation is going on there. You can still buy valve (tube) amps as well. Could Sony or Samsung make a living there, though? It's going to be too small of a market for nVidia, or anyone else, to continue to innovate and make bank on.

 

[psoomah]

Lol, now the OP is suggesting a hybrid crossfire setup. APU and discrete gpu. AMD is publicly having crossfire issues, with standard multi-gpu configs. There basic driver approach is BROKEN. Counting on some Jetson Tech, future offering will disappoint.

a. AMD is releasing a Catalyst version at the end of July that fixes that problem.

b. For the umpteenth time, I am talking about NEXT GENERATION fully HSA compliant APUs ad GPUs. A totally different kettle of fish. Piranhas. The really vicious and nasty ones.

 

[3DVagabond]

Even if at the end they are Pro level cards trickled down to consumers like the Titan or 780GTX.

Workstation graphics will be the first to go purely integrated. Look at where Adobe is heading. It's in these companies best interest to make their software run on as little resources as possible. The gaming industry is paid by AMD (GE) and nVidia (TWIMTBP) to make upgrading their products viable.

 

[sxr7171]

That's true, but look at how much innovation is going on there. You can still buy valve (tube) amps as well. Could Sony or Samsung make a living there, though? It's going to be too small of a market for nVidia, or anyone else, to continue to innovate and make bank on.

But even you must admit that professionals will always need a powerful GPU. And they will still offer a $1000 version of that GPU crippled so it doesn't run professional apps for gamers. That's what the Titan is as far as I know. So there will always be some access for hardcore gamers but the price will be high.

But sure the entire low end and mid end GPU market could die.

 

[psoomah]

That would be probably a 250w APU, seems unlikely since that would be nightmare for OEMs and has little to no chance of success in any other market.

The PS4 has an APU with 7850 class graphics that runs full bore at 65 watts.

Q4 2014 will see 20nm APUs with at least 7870 graphics in that same 65 watt range.

Nothing you just said makes any sense.

 

[notty22]

We have heard about updates to fix normal crossfire configurations, forever now. It's become a moot discussion point for it to keep being promised. A future beta will be perfect, release untold Titan level performance and fix all user issues from the last 2 years. AMD just discovered there were problems.
Sorry but enthusiasts that visit forums like here are smarter than that. Posters who continue to rant about Nvidia's doom and strange dislikes for its CEO are equally transparent to members.

 

[psoomah]

The way some people are talking there shouldn't even be a PC gaming industry right now. It should have gone bust years ago.

Also while AMD may obtain optimizations which is good for them, I have several "gaming evolved" titles that run better on my nVidia GPU.

Without Steam PC gaming would be in hella worse shape than it is at present.

Those optimizations are for NEXT gen games.

 

[sxr7171]

Workstation graphics will be the first to go purely integrated. Look at where Adobe is heading. It's in these companies best interest to make their software run on as little resources as possible. The gaming industry is paid by AMD (GE) and nVidia (TWIMTBP) to make upgrading their products viable.

I see. I must admit that I don't understand the workstation or content creation market very well.

But I see even Apple is putting in dual discrete GPUs in the Mac Pro. Knowing Apple they would chop off an appendage to avoid that expense. There has to be a market for these discrete cards. Someone will always push the envelop on these massively parallel processors. It could even be the encryption (government) or scientific research communities.

I may be wrong but there will be room for these discrete GPUs for some time yet.

 

[tviceman]

Heh, live and learn. I keep doing both and as I do I grow more and more accurate.

I'm getting to be almost god like really.

People you can quote this. Psoomah is "almost god like."

 

[sxr7171]

Without Steam PC gaming would be in hella worse shape than it is at present.

Those optimizations are for NEXT gen games.

Steam is great no doubt. Somebody had to do it. And in reality someone will always innovate in the PC game market. Maybe Valve maybe someone else. Their Big Picture interface makes it just as easy to use my PC as an Xbox.

But from what little I read HSA optimizations work only in an iGPU situation right? If it does work with a discrete GPU, then its an open standard and it would behoove nVidia to incorporate it.

 

[3DVagabond]

I see. I must admit that I don't understand the workstation or content creation market very well.

But I see even Apple is putting in dual discrete GPUs in the Mac Pro. Knowing Apple they would chop off an appendage to avoid that expense. There has to be a market for these discrete cards. Someone will always push the envelop on these massively parallel processors. It could even be the encryption (government) or scientific research communities.

I may be wrong but there will be room for these discrete GPUs for some time yet.

Parallel computing is the only healthy market I see for dGPU's.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to pretend I'm an industry analyst. This is just IMHO.

SoC's are the future though.

 

[sxr7171]

Parallel computing is the only healthy market I see for dGPU's.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to pretend I'm an industry analyst. This is just IMHO.

SoC's are the future though.

I agree. It's amazing what kinds of high resolution some of these modern tablets are capable of.

But like in other fields niche markets tend to survive, they just are very expensive to participate in. Have you priced out a high end tube amp lately?

And there's no doubt both nVidia and AMD are diversifying out of discrete GPUs. Neither could survive if it were their primary business.

 

[psoomah]

People you can quote this. Psoomah is "almost god like."

My dog literally worships me.

Cat needs some work though.

 

[frozentundra123456]

The PS4 has an APU with 7850 class graphics that runs full bore at 65 watts.

Q4 2014 will see 20nm APUs with at least 7870 graphics in that same 65 watt range.

Nothing you just said makes any sense.

Good luck with combining a 100 watt cpu and a 150 watt gpu into a 65 watt envelope, even with a die shrink.

igpus are always, it seems, one generation away from greatness.