AMD's spam laden drivers... big deal?

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: taltamir
AMD bought ATI on october 06. After which the next 5 versions had major changes and fixing to the installation procdures.. a quoted a few jems from the notes for the following drivers... (6.10 was the last released by ATI itself)...
Those are not the only ones, just my favorites (i am serious, they are... they made my life easier).

v6.11, first AMD version and a sign of improvement:
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://a248.e.akamai.net/f......_notes.html#250327"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/67...ease_notes.html#250327"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/www2.ati.com/drivers/Catalyst_611_release_notes.html#250327">https://a248.e.akamai............tml#250327</a></a></a>

"Using the Uninstall Utility to remove the display driver or Catalyst Control Center no longer results in portions of third party applications also being uninstalled. Further details can be found in topic number 737-23277"
"Un-installing the graphics driver no longer results in the desktop display flashing when installing the in-the-box software driver bundled with the Microsoft operating system until the system is rebooted a second time. Further details can be found in topic number 737-23692"

before v7.3 the only way to reliably install new drivers was to install them over the old ones TWICE.. once to break them, and once to get the new drivers... OR to boot into safemode and run driver cleaner.... but that started corrupting windows with late v6 because it couldn't handle CCC. WHICH IS NEEDED TO GET THE MOST OUT OF YOUR CARD... and was also a laggy peice of crap at first...
However, ATI instructions called for you to FIRST uninstall the drivers and then install new ones... this is why:

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://a248.e.akamai.net/f......release_notes.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/67..._73_release_notes.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/www2.ati.com/drivers/Catalyst_73_release_notes.html">https://a248.e.akamai............notes.html</a></a></a>

"Uninstalling the graphics drivers no longer results in some of the files and folders failing to be removed in the Program File folder. Further details can be found in topic number 737-23715"
"Catalyst? Control Center: Creating a profile no longer results in the profile shortcut not being deleted from desktop after uninstalling the Catalyst? Control Center. Further details can be found in topic number 737-26659"
"Installing a newer version of the Catalyst? Control Center over an older version no longer results in the newer version failing to install. Further details can be found in topic number 737-26666"



it was a damned if you, damned if you dont... installing a new version over an old version could break windows... deleting an old version meant it deleted some random files from OTHER programs and did NOT delete all the files from ATI... preventing you from installing newer version of those files...
That is... if you choose to beleive AMD when they say they fixed those problems... maybe they were lying... maybe there was no such problem with ATI's drivers and they... like me.. made it all up because they hate ATI... or maybe they bought ATI, stopped pretending the problem doesn't exist... and SOLVED IT! And now you can install AMD video drivers without breaking windows... starting from v7.3 you can either uninstall safely and then install a new version... OR install the new version over the old one knowning it will properly replace it... either one works now...

There were a few more but these are just some quick examples of I grabbed by scanning a few release notes.. I am not gonna scour every release note out there to find every example... but this is obviously not all in my head considering AMD went and claimed to have fixed the problem.



And why do people insist the CCC is uselss?
Do you know VPU recoverer? it restarts the video card after a crash allowing you to keep playing... recently nvidia introduced the same...
This requires the CCC last I checked...

And vga configuration? god help you if you try it without the CCC... fast write... 4x speeds... etc, no configuration will work properly without the CCC... you have to run it and let it "test settings" to make them stick...
Bare driver can't do that.


And as for "it is always recommended to install this way"... recommended by WHOM!
ATI and nVidia each give instructions on how to update drivers... using spysweeper or whatever it was is not in those instructions... nor drivercleaner pro... in fact I think they say not to use any third party stuff...

So when you run a CPU at 3.4Ghz when it's rated at 2.4 you won't use a 3rd party cooling solution because Intel says it will void the warranty? Good advice...The recommendations come from the community who have the issues. Test labs where drivers are created are donw on clean environments free of any lingering potential issues. You won't see trouble in those testing procedures so when released a driver can still have some lingering effects on a system that has 200 different drivers installed half of which are not used anymore. Clean it out. It's not hard.

 

[sandorski]

A Chris Crocker video would have been more informative.

 

[neothe0ne]

Originally posted by: taltamir
AMD bought ATI on october 06... [insert wall of text]

I saw no proof that ATI drivers would break your Windows installation. I saw that your display would flash or something. Wow, like that requires you to reinstall Windows, that would be like, a 5 second inconvenience at most?

You also failed to address my post on Driver Sweeper. No one talked about SpySweeper, maybe you should also check your glasses prescription (or learn to read) before complaining about supposed problems with ATI which no one else has ever experienced before.

Originally posted by: taltamir
ATI and nVidia each give instructions on how to update drivers... using spysweeper or whatever it was is not in those instructions... nor drivercleaner pro... in fact I think they say not to use any third party stuff...

ATI and nVidia both tell you to uninstall your previous driver before installing your new one.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: taltamir
Are you suggesting I pirate or purchase special software to uninstall a driver? cause driver cleaner costs money.

And doesn't handle CCC well at all.

However it DID salvage many broken upgrades for me.
the fact you are saying you have to use that third party tool to uninstall the ATI drivers just lends credence to my argument. Because you are admitting that you have to use a third party tool to prevent ATI drivers from breaking windows...

Interestingly that made me anti-ATI... AMD actually fixed these issues. But introduced other ones instead... thats why I didn't title this "drivers destroy windows, do you care?" because AMD actually fixed ATIs supercrap drivers to not destroy windows (at least, not during upgrades)... AND fixed CCC to NOT take 5 minutes to load...

special software?
😕

it is free ... and i only use if if i am changing from AMD to nvidia or nvidia to AMD ... the Cat Uninstaller AMD offers works great ...

i say "AMD" because it IS "AMD" ... ATi is nothing more than a division. When AMD bought ATi they clearly were working on CCC and drivers and continue working on them as a "work in progress"

the one thing you and i agree on is that you are clearly and self-admittedly "anti-ATi". Good for you. Never buy them again. Just nvidia and you will be happy

[you think]

i think the problem lies with you

 

[KeithP]

When I first noticed this I found it annoying. Sure, you can uncheck boxes but it still seems odd to get this stuff you when you are downloading drivers. Do any other hardware manufacturers do this?

I don't know if it will keep me from buying another AMD/ATI product. I will have to wait and see if they come up with something worth buying first. 😉

-KeithP

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Originally posted by: KeithP
When I first noticed this I found it annoying. Sure, you can uncheck boxes but it still seems odd to get this stuff you when you are downloading drivers. Do any other hardware manufacturers do this?

I don't know if it will keep me from buying another AMD/ATI product. I will have to wait and see if they come up with something worth buying first. 😉

-KeithP

I don't know why . . . but I hate you -_-

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: KeithP
When I first noticed this I found it annoying. Sure, you can uncheck boxes but it still seems odd to get this stuff you when you are downloading drivers. Do any other hardware manufacturers do this?

I don't know if it will keep me from buying another AMD/ATI product. I will have to wait and see if they come up with something worth buying first. 😉

-KeithP

i think AMD is the first ... with the driver adons .. although Creative might have been waaay first with lots of "trial programs" and "free demos" with their SB driver package - if i remember right.
--and usually you get all the ads on the way to the drivers 😉

with Cat 7.10 i kept getting bugged to register my 2900xt
... so i did 😛

 

[Cabages]

Originally posted by: Dazed and Confused
I don't know why . . . but I hate you -_-

😕

And I hate you. Words hurt, especially on the internet. Please, only post if you have additional thoughts to add to the conversation.

As for my personal experience with ATI. Its mixed.

I do not like the extra software and everything they pack into their drivers, its somewhat annoying to unclick, but the worst part is having to always download that extra shit and having it take longer to download. And while some of you have referenced free or shareware type software having adds or other software included in them, I didnt have to pay for that software. When I bought my ATI card, I personally believe I paid for continued drivers support, while drivers may be free, I believe I paid for them when I bought the card. Course I could be wrong.

Also, it seems ATI has more of a problem getting performance from their cards. Just looking at the HD2900 series compared to the 8800 series I think proves that (course I may be wrong).

Thats just my experience. I dont pretend to know everything, and I would appreciate it if (what I consider) useless, flaming remarks would be kept out of this conversation.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Cabages

Originally posted by: Dazed and Confused
I don't know why . . . but I hate you -_-

😕

And I hate you. Words hurt, especially on the internet. Please, only post if you have additional thoughts to add to the conversation.

As for my personal experience with ATI. Its mixed.

I do not like the extra software and everything they pack into their drivers, its somewhat annoying to unclick, but the worst part is having to always download that extra shit and having it take longer to download. And while some of you have referenced free or shareware type software having adds or other software included in them, I didnt have to pay for that software. When I bought my ATI card, I personally believe I paid for continued drivers support, while drivers may be free, I believe I paid for them when I bought the card. Course I could be wrong.

Also, it seems ATI has more of a problem getting performance from their cards. Just looking at the HD2900 series compared to the 8800 series I think proves that (course I may be wrong).

Thats just my experience. I dont pretend to know everything, and I would appreciate it if (what I consider) useless, flaming remarks would be kept out of this conversation.

we all generally like the useless flaming remarks kept out - but some posters don't even notice - unless it is directed at them 😛

You DO get continued free AMD driver support ... plus optional ads - you pay for NOTHING unless you want something optional ... IF it *bothers* you that much to 'say no' to an ad, you should NOT buy AMD's product and buy nvidia.

The 2900xt is aimed at the 640GTS in every way - not the GTX or Ultra ... 2900 competes with 8800GTS price-wise and performance-wise and is not in the slightest bit inferior ... it is a real *alternative* to 8800GTS.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Originally posted by: Cabages

Originally posted by: Dazed and Confused
I don't know why . . . but I hate you -_-

😕

And I hate you. Words hurt, especially on the internet. Please, only post if you have additional thoughts to add to the conversation.

As for my personal experience with ATI. Its mixed.

I do not like the extra software and everything they pack into their drivers, its somewhat annoying to unclick, but the worst part is having to always download that extra shit and having it take longer to download. And while some of you have referenced free or shareware type software having adds or other software included in them, I didnt have to pay for that software. When I bought my ATI card, I personally believe I paid for continued drivers support, while drivers may be free, I believe I paid for them when I bought the card. Course I could be wrong.

Also, it seems ATI has more of a problem getting performance from their cards. Just looking at the HD2900 series compared to the 8800 series I think proves that (course I may be wrong).

Thats just my experience. I dont pretend to know everything, and I would appreciate it if (what I consider) useless, flaming remarks would be kept out of this conversation.

Oh hell, it's another forum Nazi. He thinks he's a moderator that has the power to strip my freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is a double edged sword. You can say what you want, but still have to answer for it. Go back through this thread and edit all your posts that personally attack the OP.

Anandtech Moderator - KP

HEIL CABAGES !!! ZIG HEIL ! ZIG HEIL ! ZIG HEIL !

True most of my posts are irrelevant and useless in this thread but look at the warm reception this thread got. We're trying to show how pathetic people are that whine about clicking 2 check boxxes on software are.

BTW, anyone that has ever downloaded any installer for anything used on a daily basis on the interweb is all too famalier with cheap plugins for other products.

Java installer asks you to install google

Shockwave installer asks you to install firefox

Oh, and lets not forget that there isn't a piece of provided software out there that makes you uncheck tons of features that seem worthless to most of us just so they can help push thier products. Ever instaled Nero ? And if so how many of you use every feature included ? Or how about installing Adobe when it asks you to install thier photo software ? Or hw about installing *gasp* windows 😵. When it promotes shit loads of dial up ISP's ( well, mainly there own but eh ).

 

[Cabages]

Originally posted by: apoppin
You DO get continued free AMD driver support ... plus optional ads - you pay for NOTHING unless you want something optional ... IF it *bothers* you that much to 'say no' to an ad, you should NOT buy AMD's product and buy nvidia.

The 2900xt is aimed at the 640GTS in every way - not the GTX or Ultra ... 2900 competes with 8800GTS price-wise and performance-wise and is not in the slightest bit inferior ... it is a real *alternative* to 8800GTS.

Ya, guess its determined on how much it bothers you. Though I dont think its any reason to completely boycott a company. Must really irritate him.

I agree the 2900xt matches the GTS in performance, but doesnt it require more power, output more heat, and have heftier hardware compared to the GTS? Also, doesnt it require another 6 or 8 pin plug from the PSU in order to overclock?

Also, thanks for the very mature PM's dazed and utube.:laugh:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Cabages

Originally posted by: apoppin
You DO get continued free AMD driver support ... plus optional ads - you pay for NOTHING unless you want something optional ... IF it *bothers* you that much to 'say no' to an ad, you should NOT buy AMD's product and buy nvidia.

The 2900xt is aimed at the 640GTS in every way - not the GTX or Ultra ... 2900 competes with 8800GTS price-wise and performance-wise and is not in the slightest bit inferior ... it is a real *alternative* to 8800GTS.

Ya, guess its determined on how much it bothers you. Though I dont think its any reason to completely boycott a company. Must really irritate him.

I agree the 2900xt matches the GTS in performance, but doesnt it require more power, output more heat, and have heftier hardware compared to the GTS? Also, doesnt it require another 6 or 8 pin plug from the PSU in order to overclock?

yes, 2900xt requires more power at load - at most 1-2 hours a day - not at idle. The heat output is evidently similar to the GTX and it also exhausts the air OUT of the case so that is generally not an issue whatsoever. The fan is also a bit louder at load then the GTS but not annoying like a x850xt or even a x1950p.

No problem with OC'ing ... just 2-6 Pin PCIe plus plus RivaTuner or ATI tool or just about anything OC'ing program other than OverDrive.

Here .... i did a direct comparison along with several of us ... mine is Post #5 with Cat 7.6 and 2900XT vs 8800GTS OC and XP vs. Vista performance ... they are very equivalent cards ... i actually purchased both of them to do the tests and returned the GTS 640OC.

In House HD2900XT vs. 8800GTS 640

i kept mine because it was a "steal" for $320 with Orange Box included back in June compared with the $70 more GTS.

 

[soybeast]

Boycotting video card companies..... boy what a cushy world we live in.












Sorry, don't mean to troll.

 

[wittangamo]

As someone who downloads and uses only the ATI drivers because it's a smaller file with a simpler install, I can't fathom why the whiners here download the whole boat and then complain about it.

There's nothing CCC can do that I can't do, and I routinely disable the auto-start, hotkey poller and ATI Smart services to reduce system resources.

The KISS principle seems valid here, especially considering the knowledge level of some posters who seem to think they know more about graphics drivers than the ATI engineers.

I've been building systems with ATI (and Nvidia) cards longer than many of you have been alive. Both have produced bad hardware and buggy software, but broad condemnation like what's being tossed around here would be more appropriate for a religious war that a PC forum. "Believe what I believe or you'll burn in hell."

P.S., I have never heard of a video driver breaking a Win XP install. If you know how to properly uninstall and reinstall drivers, the worst that can happen is you might have to do a manual search-and-destroy on leftover files and some registry editing. Such situations are NOT unique to one cardmaker or the other.

This forum is supposed to be about helping people solve these kinds of problems, not blaming your own ignorance on a brand name.

 

[mruffin75]

Originally posted by: apoppin

i hate to be the first one to point it out ...
---obviously AMD isn't all about *you*

... buy a nvidia card and be happy
[although i expect to hear you complain about nvidia's use of .net - sooner-or-later 😛]

Happy with Nvidia? I doubt it...

I've got a GeForce Go 7200 in my HP Laptop.. and I can't count how many times I've come back to the laptop and seen "nvvm***.dll has stopped responding and has recovered", or for that matter, the laptop just not waking up at all and then having a reboot and saying that it was the Nvidia driver that was to blame.. (yes it's the latest driver)..

All my other PC's have ATI cards, and none of them have had any sort of problem like this.. (X800GT, X1600 Pro, 2900XT).

It's great that Nvidia has the performance crown at the moment...just be better if they could make stable drivers... hence why I'll stick with ATI for now...

And to answer the poll...no I don't care...I already have Steam..and it's easy to uncheck EarthSim..

 

[neothe0ne]

Originally posted by: mruffin75

Originally posted by: apoppin

i hate to be the first one to point it out ...
---obviously AMD isn't all about *you*

... buy a nvidia card and be happy
[although i expect to hear you complain about nvidia's use of .net - sooner-or-later 😛]

Happy with Nvidia? I doubt it...

I've got a GeForce Go 7200 in my HP Laptop

And I stopped reading there. The GeForce Go 7200 is not a driver option on NVIDIA.com. Normally, you get NVIDIA laptop graphics chipset drivers from the laptop manufacturer, not NVIDIA...

In this topic: We discuss the apparent rocket science that is installing drivers.

 

[mruffin75]

Originally posted by: neothe0ne

ATI and nVidia both tell you to uninstall your previous driver before installing your new one.

I know this is going to jinx me...

But I've *never* uninstalled *any* video drivers before installing the new one's (for both ATI and Nvidia). And never had a problem with either.. (yes I've had problems with a laptop in a previous post, but that was straight from the factory...so no reinstalls there!)..

Currently running mostly ATI (except for the laptop), and none have required driver cleaner/sweeper/discarder/deleter/wiper blah blah blah before installing a new driver. Just run the installation application and it updates...no uninstall required..

 

[mruffin75]

Originally posted by: neothe0ne

Originally posted by: mruffin75

Originally posted by: apoppin

i hate to be the first one to point it out ...
---obviously AMD isn't all about *you*

... buy a nvidia card and be happy
[although i expect to hear you complain about nvidia's use of .net - sooner-or-later 😛]

Happy with Nvidia? I doubt it...

I've got a GeForce Go 7200 in my HP Laptop

And I stopped reading there. The GeForce Go 7200 is not a driver option on NVIDIA.com. Normally, you get NVIDIA laptop graphics chipset drivers from the laptop manufacturer, not NVIDIA...

In this topic: We discuss the apparent rocket science that is installing drivers.

Yes..but the original drivers *are* developed by Nvidia...then modified slightly for each laptop manufacturer...

I don't see that as a get-out-of-jail-free card for Nvidia.. especially considering their desktop cards have the same problems...

 

[imported_carbon]

Originally posted by: mruffin75

Originally posted by: neothe0ne

ATI and nVidia both tell you to uninstall your previous driver before installing your new one.

I know this is going to jinx me...

But I've *never* uninstalled *any* video drivers before installing the new one's (for both ATI and Nvidia). And never had a problem with either.. (yes I've had problems with a laptop in a previous post, but that was straight from the factory...so no reinstalls there!)..

Currently running mostly ATI (except for the laptop), and none have required driver cleaner/sweeper/discarder/deleter/wiper blah blah blah before installing a new driver. Just run the installation application and it updates...no uninstall required..

I too have never used an external app to remove drivers... I do however use the uninstaller that comes with the driver, reboot and install the new driver. I too never would have guessed that this is rocket science.

I just love reading about people that create problems for themselves and then blame it on the hardware/software. Just becuase you don't know what you did to cause the problem doesn't mean that the problems weren't caused by you. I have caught myself in the act before.

 

[TanisHalfElven]

Originally posted by: neothe0ne
"(ie, it breaks your window's ability to run the graphics driver and require OS reinstall)"

Never experienced this in the time period of Catalyst 6.x to 7.x.

"blahblahblah free offers suck have to go to advanced install options"

Do you have a problem with clicking on two checkboxes? Besides, if you don't click on one of them, you get a free copy of Half-Life 2 Deathmatch to play online with.


Answer to poll: I don't care.
(And yes, I have actually installed Catalyst recently, for my former X800PRO and for my family computer with Radeon Xpress 200)

i was actually pleasently surprised by the free copy of hl2. after using ubuntu for 1 year i recently reinstalled XP so as a prize i got hl2.

 

[BFG10K]

although i expect to hear you complain about nvidia's use of .net - sooner-or-later

I could be wrong but I don't believe nVidia uses .net.

 

[nyker96]

I have to say I agree with the OP, commercials have no place in driver installation. But hey don't take it personally, I think they loosing money so have to resort to tricks to stay afloat, so maybe give them a bit forgiveness. Anyways, you DO have a valid point to complaint though.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: nyker96
I have to say I agree with the OP, commercials have no place in driver installation. But hey don't take it personally, I think they loosing money so have to resort to tricks to stay afloat, so maybe give them a bit forgiveness. Anyways, you DO have a valid point to complaint though.

I'd be more inclined to complain about games pushing Nvidia on me with their logo that pops up when I launch the .exe which CANNOT be disabled, unchecked, skipped, paused, or stopped.

At least ATI allows you to uncheck what you don't want.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

although i expect to hear you complain about nvidia's use of .net - sooner-or-later

I could be wrong but I don't believe nVidia uses .net.

afaik, eventually i think they will have to - that is why i said sooner-or-later - but right now, i believe you are right ... their own control panel doesn't appear to require .NET framework

NV Tray Tools do:

http://display-and-video.555word.com/nVIDIA/32361/nVIDIA-NVTray-(NVIDIA-Tray-Tools)-v1.0.3.0-Windows-2000-XP.html

This program requires .NET Framework 2.0 to support a broader range of systems.

 

[bryanW1995]

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd

Originally posted by: nyker96
I have to say I agree with the OP, commercials have no place in driver installation. But hey don't take it personally, I think they loosing money so have to resort to tricks to stay afloat, so maybe give them a bit forgiveness. Anyways, you DO have a valid point to complaint though.

I'd be more inclined to complain about games pushing Nvidia on me with their logo that pops up when I launch the .exe which CANNOT be disabled, unchecked, skipped, paused, or stopped.

At least ATI allows you to uncheck what you don't want.

intro to civ4 has the stupid TWIMTBP screen, but you can click through it.