AMD's Roy Taylor: PhysX/Cuda doomed?

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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
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AMD could port PhysX to OpenCl and bypass CUDA completely. Of course, they won't do that as they're too proud. It would be admitting that NVidia is their better..

There were reports before that nvidia considered licensing it to amd but the asking price for access was stupid high so amd told nvidia to take a hike. Whether this was actually true to some extent I dunno but the point is amd cannot simply "make it work"
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
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It looks okay to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE92YDCwjoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHKPW49BdBI

They don't artificially pump up the particle count like PhysX games do, but the arbitrary building destruction is impressive, and it runs plenty fast on the CPU.

As BoFox would say, it's nice we have choice.

They aren't pumping particle count at all, there is no debris, the blocks/sections are all large, they all splinter the same regardless of where you hit them. Furthermore, most (all?) the pieces simply vanish, often before they even hit the ground. It's clearly been toned down to make it run well.

I'm not saying this isn't a good thing, I'd like to see this free world destruction in all games. However since you are presenting either or, I prefer Borderlands 2 with PhysX over Red Faction, I don't own any Red Faction games. ():)
 

SirPauly

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Apr 28, 2009
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It's subjective -- some are fine with how they subjectively define, " good enough!"

What impresses me about Borderlands 2 was the chaos with many different physic effects happening at the same time, when particles, cloth, turbulence, force fields and fluids interact with the environment and with each other.


A video that offers the physic effects working in conjunction:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yByMKb5VxMc
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
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Since you're so fond of the PhysX in Metro Last Light, try running it on your CPU, and see how far that gets you..



As has been mentioned, all of those games use canned animations in concert with computed physics. Using those games as a representation for what CPU physics is capable of is thus nonsensical, because it's not true physics.



GPU physics only runs slow if you're using your main rendering card to compute the physics, and the card is already heavily taxed from rendering and has no spare cycles.

In that case, you can either reduce your settings to alleviate the burden, or get a dedicated PhysX card.


The scripted vs non-scripted argument is irrelevant. Everything in a 3D game is scripted and simulated to represent a fantasy world. Whether that is animations, textures or physics. It's the end net effect and how that impacts your game play that matters.

Battlefield has a huge extensive physics engine that allows you to deform and manipulate the game world to change game play. In the BF4 alpha you could destroy near everything in sight to change the battlefield. It looks realistic and impacts your game play. The fact that I can blast my gun into the ground in Borderlands 2 and see 1000s of rock chunks that all look generally the same, but different sizes of that chunk and the direction they're going generated on the fly really does nothing to improve the game beyond hammer my frame rate.

Like I said, the only thing I've seen GPU physx do so far in the 23 games out there that use it to excel beyond something in a game running physics via CPU is the interactive smoke/fog. This is ignoring that over half of those 23 games are totally worthless garbage/free2play/tech demo dustbin games not worth the hard drive space. There are realistically about 10 relevant games that use gpu physx.

I don't think gpu physx is going to go away because it's still essentially alpha technology. It's nowhere near efficient or robust enough to take over from CPU run physics engines as a full-fledged physics implementation in games that need it. Right now it's just a marketing point for nvidia that they pay and do the work of implementing to get developers to even use it. It's also visually generally less realistic than what you get in other games, see water that looks like gelatin and debris that all look the same - little pebbles that fly all over the place. Or something like those ridiculous glass shards in the last Batman that sprayed all over the place...
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
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I think GPU accelerated PhysX is severely hampered by it being tied to Cuda and as a result Nvidia alone. Yes there is a CPU based PhysX as well that can be used on all platforms but somehow i doubt Nvidia bought Ageia to be a CPU based physics API provider.

PhysX might not die but it will never going to be what Nvidia has dreamt it would do for them.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
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That's beta, and it's a lot more than any game so far has ever tried to do.

It's also a game that is heavily nVidia subsidized. Look at the particle effects that "couldn't" be done without PhysX on Hawken but can be freely done without PhysX on numerous other games.

PhysX isn't artificially limited to NVidia GPUs. o_O

PhysX runs on everything, and the only reason why it doesn't run on AMD video cards is because AMD refuses to support PhysX..

The license is apparently free, so there's no one but themselves stopping them from doing it.
If you truly believe nVidia was not trying to pull one over on AMD, look at how nVidia artificially limits the ability of anyone with an AMD GPU as the primary card from using an nVidia card as a PhysX co-processor. nVidia can make PhysX work with any video card as the primary GPU which is how it used to work and which you can only now do if you jump through hoops. Unless you think nVidia's engineers are too stupid or incompetent to enable that functionality, then nVidia is artificially limiting PhysX from working with AMD as the primary GPU.

While we don't know the exact terms and conditions for AMD to support PhysX, I can guarantee that the terms are not favorable to AMD. Not that I expect nVidia to give a handout to AMD. It's business after all. If anyone reads between the lines, they'll know that if nVidia really wanted AMD to support PhysX (without onerous terms and conditions), nVidia would make the licensing terms very open. If you think the licensing is free, you are being naive. If you and I were direct competitors in a business niche, I can give you a "free" license with terms and conditions attached that makes it very unattractive to you. Without the actual contract being offered, this is all speculation but I'd bet good money that I'm right on this count.

If nVidia really wanted PhysX to flourish as an industry standard, they would put control of PhysX under a group of industry leaders. They can do this while retaining full control of their intellectual property and still collect licensing fees for anyone who uses PhysX. The fact that they haven't, after years of PhysX having minimal impact on advancing/furthering gaming tells you all you need to know.



*****EDIT*****
I'd like to add that I have nothing personal against nVidia. Nor do I have anything personal against PhysX. My disdain for PhysX is because I believe that nVidia's implementation and business decisions regarding PhysX actually hampers the state of gaming.
*****END EDIT*****
 
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NIGELG

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Nov 4, 2009
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Mafia 2 .....shoot concrete post,lots of particles fly out of post,stop shooting,post looks the same,post not damaged.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
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For the argument that in BF all buildings fall down into the same pieces, this is partly because its a multiplayer game.

When there is a pile of debris that the player can hide behind, that debris has to be identical FOR EVERYBODY. If the big chunk you are hiding behind is not there for other players, suddenly you are in the open. So things have to be a certain way so all players see it as the same. Everybody having random/dynamic debris would make the game feel very buggy. As suddenly it would seem like you just go shot through a chunk of concrete. But only because the chunk is not there for somebody else.

And thats why PhysX does NOT have any impact on actual game play. It is for client side eye candy only. Not to mention only half the gamers could even play with PhysX (other half are AMD), so you cant have the game rely on something that is not available across the board.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
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Mafia 2 .....shoot concrete post,lots of particles fly out of post,stop shooting,post looks the same,post not damaged.

Or Tomb Raider with TressFX: Swinging in wrong directions, enviroment has no impact, glitches, no real physics simulation.

Really, this PhysX... Oh wait. Sry, my mistake. :|
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
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The Red Faction games have been mentioned repeatedly, and they most certainly use computed physics: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-red-faction-tech-part-one-interview?page=2

I never named RFG as one of the games that use scripted animations, but I did say their physics was extremely basic compared to that found in PhysX titles.

Their rigid body physics looks as though it uses only a few hundred objects to achieve the destruction effects, which is far too low if you ask me. Also, some of the effects appear to be partially scripted, as the debris disappears very quickly, before it even hits the ground.


Heck, Red Faction 1 came out in 2001 and I've yet to see any PhysX game that can dig arbitrary tunnels like it did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8KeFgzqsPQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYJyzpZ-rP0

That game was designed for that though from the ground up. A game has to be designed for those features for them to be implemented properly.

There's nothing stopping PhysX from achieving something similar, other than arbitrary decisions by game developers.

There are several games that offer comparable (and even superior physics) to PhysX titles but run perfectly fine on the CPU. Somehow it seems like only PhysX is crippled on CPUs while Havok (et al.) isn't.

Can you name some? I've yet to see any non PhysX game that can match Borderlands 2.

Hardware PhysX most certainly is, which is what people are taking issue to. It's also locked if non-nVidia GPUs are in the system.

AMD had their chance, but they never took it up. NVidia offers PhysX support to AMD.

That was before it was ported to CUDA I believe.

No, the reason is because there's no license to run it on their GPUs.

The link I gave shows that NVidia once offered PhysX to AMD, but apparently, the offer was declined. If I had to guess, it was declined because back then, AMD's GPGPU performance was significantly inferior to NVidia's..

You seem to have the mistaken notion that a wrapper/emulation is the same thing as a "free license".

But if AMD had access to the source code, they would still need to emulate it?
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
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The link I gave shows that NVidia once offered PhysX to AMD, but apparently, the offer was declined. If I had to guess, it was declined because back then, AMD's GPGPU performance was significantly inferior to NVidia's..

I doubt it had anything to do with GPGPU power, and everything with what nVidia wanted in return. It was either too much money, or access to a lot of AMD IP.
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
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It's also a game that is heavily nVidia subsidized. Look at the particle effects that "couldn't" be done without PhysX on Hawken but can be freely done without PhysX on numerous other games.

Investigated Hawken and discovered one could enjoy the physical particles with PhysX on with a CPU, very welcomed.

Zogrim had similar findings:

http://physxinfo.com/news/10642/gpu-physx-in-hawken/

It was the high setting( turbulence effects) that one really may need the GPU at this time, in this specific title!
 

akugami

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Feb 14, 2005
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The link I gave shows that NVidia once offered PhysX to AMD, but apparently, the offer was declined. If I had to guess, it was declined because back then, AMD's GPGPU performance was significantly inferior to NVidia's..

There's a difference between "offering" and "offering with no strings attached" as a previous poster, sontin, put it. I mentioned that point in my previous post, maybe you missed it.

I can offer you something for "free" because no cash changes hands. But just because no cash changes hands doesn't mean there aren't any strings attached. You would be naive to think that AMD turned down a free license to PhysX unless there was some onerous terms attached.
 

Carfax83

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Nov 1, 2010
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The scripted vs non-scripted argument is irrelevant. Everything in a 3D game is scripted and simulated to represent a fantasy world. Whether that is animations, textures or physics. It's the end net effect and how that impacts your game play that matters.

I'd hardly say it's irrelevant, because computed physics is just that.....computed, and demands a lot of processing power for it to work effectively, which is the trade off. The authenticity of the simulation is proportional to the amount of computational power. The advantages though of using computed physics are well worth it, as you can achieve more realistic and better looking simulation (especially for complex physics effects like smoke, cloth etcetera), with far less development time and cost..

If the scripted vs non scripted argument is irrelevant as you claim, would you support using scripted animations for all game physics?

While animations have gotten much more complex and realistic over the years, they still cannot match computed physics, and what's more, they take up space on disk and in memory..

Battlefield has a huge extensive physics engine that allows you to deform and manipulate the game world to change game play. In the BF4 alpha you could destroy near everything in sight to change the battlefield. It looks realistic and impacts your game play. The fact that I can blast my gun into the ground in Borderlands 2 and see 1000s of rock chunks that all look generally the same, but different sizes of that chunk and the direction they're going generated on the fly really does nothing to improve the game beyond hammer my frame rate.

That's a gameplay design decision, and has nothing to do with any sort of limitations PhysX has. I showed a link earlier from a beta Hawken destruction map where practically everything was not only fully destructible, but it was all calculated using tens of thousands of GPU rigid bodies, far more than in games like Red Faction Guerilla.

So it's not that PhysX can't do it. I'm sure game developers would like to add more destructibility to PhysX games, but can't because it would deprive non NVidia users of the gameplay experience.

That's why hardware accelerated PhysX has for the most part, been confined to eye candy physics.

Like I said, the only thing I've seen GPU physx do so far in the 23 games out there that use it to excel beyond something in a game running physics via CPU is the interactive smoke/fog.

You can add interactive cloth, and fluid to that.. Before PhysX, cloth in games were animated, and basic animations at that. You had clothing that stuck to characters like glue, and moved as though it were made of cardboard.

A thug in Arkham City:

batman2_2.jpg


I don't think gpu physx is going to go away because it's still essentially alpha technology. It's nowhere near efficient or robust enough to take over from CPU run physics engines as a full-fledged physics implementation in games that need it
.

PhysX is already far ahead of software physics solutions, but is being artificially limited by it's proprietary nature.

Right now it's just a marketing point for nvidia that they pay and do the work of implementing to get developers to even use it.

Talk about resuscitating an old and discounted argument. Do you honestly believe NVidia PAYS developers to use PhysX? :awe:


It's also visually generally less realistic than what you get in other games, see water that looks like gelatin

Click here and here to see water that looks like gelatin :whiste:
 

SirPauly

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Apr 28, 2009
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You would be naive to think that AMD turned down a free license to PhysX unless there was some onerous terms attached.

The major obstacle for AMD may be Cuda based on if AMD supports and invest resources on something that is proprietary from a competitor may not be wise. nVidia controls it and if AMD licenses cuda -- may hand a monopoly for nVidia to control.
 

SirPauly

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Do you honestly believe NVidia PAYS developers to use PhysX? :awe:

That's an excellent question! I do believe nVidia invests their resources and talents for gaming developers, which would save the gaming developers time and monies!
 

Grooveriding

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Dec 25, 2008
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I'd hardly say it's irrelevant, because computed physics is just that.....computed, and demands a lot of processing power for it to work effectively, which is the trade off. The authenticity of the simulation is proportional to the amount of computational power. The advantages though of using computed physics are well worth it, as you can achieve more realistic and better looking simulation (especially for complex physics effects like smoke, cloth etcetera), with far less development time and cost..

If the scripted vs non scripted argument is irrelevant as you claim, would you support using scripted animations for all game physics?

What matters is what is the experience like for me. When gpu phsyx has for the most part been huge amounts of debris calculated on the fly with no game impact, it's just not worth it - calculated on the fly or not. It looks ridiculous and is a negative impact on gameplay: performance degradation.

CPU physics does not do the same while delivering an acceptable level of realism allowing better, more robust and game-changing physics in games.

While animations have gotten much more complex and realistic over the years, they still cannot match computed physics, and what's more, they take up space on disk and in memory..
Disk and memory usage is pretty much irrelevant these days. Both are cheap and plentiful.



That's a gameplay design decision, and has nothing to do with any sort of limitations PhysX has. I showed a link earlier from a beta Hawken destruction map where practically everything was not only fully destructible, but it was all calculated using tens of thousands of GPU rigid bodies, far more than in games like Red Faction Guerilla.

So it's not that PhysX can't do it. I'm sure game developers would like to add more destructibility to PhysX games, but can't because it would deprive non NVidia users of the gameplay experience.

That's why hardware accelerated PhysX has for the most part, been confined to eye candy physics.
It's mostly relegated to fluff eye-candy because gpu physx is just far, far too inefficient to do much more than that. Even playing the minor role it does in games it still comes at a whoppingly large performance cost. Just fire up Borderlands 2 on even the best hardware and you get noticeable slowdowns. I do on my rig. GPU Physx simply performs too poorly to deliver the sort of large scale game-changing physics needed in a game like Battlefield.

This is likely why it's looked on as a gimmick, it can't compete with the CPU options out there because of it's performance cost. Obviously being proprietary to one vendor just makes it even worse.


Click here and here to see water that looks like gelatin :whiste:
Those are really the perfect examples of what nvidia does with gpu physx. Talk a lot and show pretty tech demos and the reality is actually this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK0Lwtz6eAs

Unrealistic gelatinous water, nothing special and a frame rate hit to make it worthless. It seems like physx has the same assets it pulls from for every game as every gpu physx game has that same ridiculous water. Similar to every one having those same looking pebbles spraying everywhere. I think they need to work on diversifying the art before they even start to worry about adding it to more games.

I actually think your second link is not even physx, but a tessellation tech demo.

Developer adoption really says it all about gpu physx. If it was the compelling game-changer they claim it is, the people actually making games would be making use of it. As it stands you only see it the sequels to two running franchises and a couple free 2 play games. Six years have gone by to work on the technology and still developers are overwhelmingly disinterested and that says it all.
 

Carfax83

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Nov 1, 2010
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It's also a game that is heavily nVidia subsidized. Look at the particle effects that "couldn't" be done without PhysX on Hawken but can be freely done without PhysX on numerous other games.

What other games are those?

If you truly believe nVidia was not trying to pull one over on AMD, look at how nVidia artificially limits the ability of anyone with an AMD GPU as the primary card from using an nVidia card as a PhysX co-processor. nVidia can make PhysX work with any video card as the primary GPU which is how it used to work and which you can only now do if you jump through hoops. Unless you think nVidia's engineers are too stupid or incompetent to enable that functionality, then nVidia is artificially limiting PhysX from working with AMD as the primary GPU.

This is their rationale:

Can I use an NVIDIA GPU as a PhysX processor and a non-NVIDIA GPU for regular display graphics?

No. There are multiple technical connections between PhysX processing and graphics that require tight collaboration between the two technologies. To deliver a good experience for users, NVIDIA PhysX technology has been fully verified and enabled using only NVIDIA GPUs for graphics.

I guess they don't want to have to do any kind of verification process for AMD cards, which takes additional time and expense.

While we don't know the exact terms and conditions for AMD to support PhysX, I can guarantee that the terms are not favorable to AMD. Not that I expect nVidia to give a handout to AMD. It's business after all. If anyone reads between the lines, they'll know that if nVidia really wanted AMD to support PhysX (without onerous terms and conditions), nVidia would make the licensing terms very open. If you think the licensing is free, you are being naive. If you and I were direct competitors in a business niche, I can give you a "free" license with terms and conditions attached that makes it very unattractive to you. Without the actual contract being offered, this is all speculation but I'd bet good money that I'm right on this count.

Neither of us, nor anyone on this forum knows the terms that were offered to AMD or why AMD never took NVidia on it's offer, so it's pointless to debate..

If nVidia really wanted PhysX to flourish as an industry standard, they would put control of PhysX under a group of industry leaders. They can do this while retaining full control of their intellectual property and still collect licensing fees for anyone who uses PhysX. The fact that they haven't, after years of PhysX having minimal impact on advancing/furthering gaming tells you all you need to know.

When GPU accelerated physics first became a possibility, it was very unpopular. No one but NVidia wanted to support or develop it.

Intel of course wanted physics to remain on the CPU (which was why they bought Havok), and AMD scoffed at running physics on the GPU.

But now after all these years and tons of investment by NVidia in time, effort and resources, you honestly think NVidia is just going to give control of PhysX over to it's competitors, especially when it's going so well for them? That would be a foolish move on their part.

Besides, it's not as though AMD doesn't have their own plans. They have Bullet, which is based on OpenCl. It's not nearly as polished and refined as PhysX, but who knows, it may get there one day..
 

SirPauly

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Apr 28, 2009
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nVidia does talk a lot and placed resources where their mouth is -- starting opening their mouth in 2006 when working with HavokFX -- Havok was sold to Intel -- didn't make excuses and spent immense resources, innovation and a commitment over-all to their customers to bring advanced physics in actual content for some time -- still tying and investing.

PhysX may not be for everyone -- may not be ideal for everyone -- all it is-is a choice -- and if one doesn't care for it they can choose AMD or simply turn off the setting!

I can make the point that nVidia has grown because of Cuda, and PhysX is an extension of Cuda so-to-speak!

Is Cuda doomed? Been hearing that for some time!
 

SirPauly

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Apr 28, 2009
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When GPU accelerated physics first became a possibility, it was very unpopular. No one but NVidia wanted to support or develop it.

ATI was very bullish on GPGPU and GPU physics back in 2006 as well.

ATI demo Havok FX physics acceleration on Radeon GPUs

http://hexus.net/tech/news/graphics/5838-ati-demo-havok-fx-physics-acceleration-radeon-gpus/

Notes from ATI's Stream computing event

http://techreport.com/blog/10907/notes-from-ati-stream-computing-event

The part that bothers me only nVidia was consistent over the years!
 
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